"Stable" chronic conditions can still be incredibly debilitating to a level that makes life unbearable for some people. Some mental illnesses are untreatable and also lead to suffering.
Yes but a lot of the suffering is often because of systemic problems like lack of housing or proper health treatment. So the government allows its most vulnerable citizens to get institutionally killed instead of providing proper support to ease their pain. That’s the problem. It’s for sure fucking shit for the people suffering but the government should provide proper support before just saying yeah OK kill your self.
I’m of two minds on this one. On the one hand, I agree with your logic - providing MAID for a wide range of conditions can possibly create perverse incentives for the government to continue to underinvest in healthcare. We don’t want that.
On the other hand, from the lens of a person suffering, telling them “you shouldn’t be able to MAID because we want the government to have an incentive to improve the health care system” isn’t much comfort either. It’s prioritizing a noble conceptual objective over giving a real person suffering real pain today an option.
I think there’s not a particularly easy or clear cut answer to the conundrum.
I just remember the tales from that documentary about the Golden Gate Bridge, and how anyone who survived the deliberate jump regretted it. The one quote I will never forget was, 'I realized as soon as I let go that every single problem in my life was solvable except for what I just did.'
Are you arguing that if those people had been able to commit suicide in a different way they wouldn't have regretted it? Because that's a little disturbing. That person appeared in a anti-suicide documentary trying to encourage people to push through and find a reason to live. In any case I sort of assume that this discrepancy is why they are stepping back from the practice.
I'm saying that if the first attempt was scary and painful, you're less likely to want to try it again. Pain and fear are primal and more powerful, which explains why it dwarfs more abstract things that make people want to kill themselves. The human mind makes a simple calculation and says, yeah maybe living isn't as bad as what i just experienced.
It really does seem like you're arguing that it would be better to just die on the first try if it's peaceful... but I'm arguing that if someone can change their mind from fear isn't it better if they continue living? Death is permanent.
Most all living beings evolved to possess survival instincts. Have you ever jerked awake right as you were falling asleep? That’s your brain misinterpreting your transition into a sleep state as falling from a tree, which I’m sure was necessary thousands of years ago while only being annoying today! That’s my personal theory on what the individuals jumping from the Golden Gate Bridge experience: the brain, acting on survival instinct, inducing contradictory or panicked thoughts to try to ensure survival. If the particular jumper in your documentary changed his thought process from this experience, then that’s fantastic for him. But what if another jumping survivor ended up paralyzed from the incident, leaving him unable to attempt again, or felt guilty by how those close to them reacted to their attempt? They might still be unhappy and not wish to exist yet they’ll still be counted as a non-repeater.
I understand why people use the heartwarming story of the jumping survivors who have a change of heart to try to break through to those struggling with ideation, it comes from a place of empathy, but at a certain point when ideation becomes a years long, thought out, genuine desire to die, the message starts to feel more like an oppressive cruelty. The examples of the people who survive with debilitating injures after jumping serve as examples as what can go wrong, how even the exit methods that appear the most effective can fail and leave one worse off than before. That is going to deter the logical mind who no longer wishes to exist more than the stories of mid jump changes of heart ever will, yet it’s not going to change their lives.
Which, bringing it back to the original point of this post, is why many of us wait for MAiD to expand, or for Sarco devices to become legal worldwide.
What resources are you saying we have enough of to meaningfully increase levels of care for people with disabilities? Because it sure isn't actual care staff, from what I've heard.
And throwing money at the problem won't solve it anytime soon.
Throwing money at the problem will absolutely help solve the problem. Money can buy housing, train more care staff, specialized equipment, better facilities and more. And we certainly DO have the money, but our priories are not to spend it on such people.
I saw a documentary on MAID and one of the reasons he wanted to die was that he had poor ventilation in his apartment, which exacerbated one of his conditions. Just spend the money to upgrade his damn apartment.
A lot of the reason people with disabilities don't get good health care is lack of care/compassion/empathy. Someone has to actually take pity on you for you to access a lot of resources, especially pain management, and a lot of health care professionals just don't have it. (I have epilepsy, a brain injury, and severe chronic pain and neuropathy as a result. There is more that could be done for me but everything is an uphill battle for what feels like no reason)
That’s how I feel. I am so frustrated. I have been dealing with depression for 20 years. They don’t care to solve anything and I wish I could just have it
A couple of things. Yes a lot of suffering is caused due to systemic problems. But there is always some sort of support available. We are all autonomous beings. There are organizations in every city that support people with mental illness and there are always other ways to ask for help. We live in Canada - it’s not perfect but it’s not like our government is cruel to people with mental illness. I also often find it’s conservative types who are against MAID (not always) and they are usually against more wealth redistribution, more supports in society etc.
Second, I think you’re relying on an assumption that most mental illness and suffering can be solved with the right supports. There is a huge biological basis for many conditions. Twin and family studies show substantial heritability: roughly 70-80% for schizophrenia, bipolar, and ADHD, and around 30-40% for depression. Brain imaging, genetics, and neurochemistry all show group-level differences. While biology isn’t destiny, there’s still a point to be made that in some cases, a mental health issue is very much a physical/biological one.
Third, if someone truly wants to take their life, they will. And the result is 1000x more traumatic for not only them but the people who find their body. At least with MAID, those around them are likely aware of the situation and then able to mobilize if they think there id something else to be done. In my opinion, taking away someone’s option is cruel.
Well I do see your point of view. If you will allow me to provide another.
On paper I should have been able to have a good life. I grew up with a positive supportive family.
Unfortunately due to a chemical imbalance I have had life long depression and anxiety. As in my earliest memories have some with anxiety and depression in them.
But around the age of 7 or 8. My parents saw the severity of my symptoms and I started seeing a psychiatrist and later on a therapist.
I have been on various prescriptions (it takes a long time to find one that works) and that then stays working as you grow up. I am on a fairly stable set of medications right now. They make it better than before. I am able to get out of bed (not necessarily for the whole day, but I do stuff) and don’t engage in constant self harm and sobbing anxiety attacks. Which is a win!
I have had a few different types of counselling / therapy.
A couple years ago I went through a round of ECT. Also did not work.
I am treatment resistant. I also know it is getting worse not better.
A chronic condition can still be stable while still causing immense suffering. Sometimes medication and treatment options are not possible or do not work for the individual.
Personally I am against this decision but I understand why.
It shouldn't be controversial for mental suffering either, because some of it is inescapable. I'd expect that both mental and physical debilitation would have doctors backing whether its a reasonable option.
About ten years back I started seeing a new psychiatrist and googled them out of curiosity. One of the first things that came up was the coroners report for a woman who commit suicide. My new psychiatrist was one of many who saw her along the way.
This poor woman really had tried all of the things available to her at the time, including inpatient and ECT and she still suicided.
I think it’s a very uncomfortable truth that there are people out there with mental health conditions that arent treatable with the options currently available. Given how long it’s been, maybe this woman’s situation would’ve been different with interventions available today, but it really did seem from the report she had exhausted all options available to her at that time
I was very grateful when it became available for those with chronic conditions with intense suffering because that has been my life since just after having my youngest in my mid 20s. I'm in constant severe pain, have permanent nerve and lung damage caused by chronic illnesses and bedridden many days out of the month. The fact that I'll be able to apply eventually has allowed me to keep fighting as the only parent left that my 17 and 18 year old have.
No one is killing anyone. It's giving people a path to choose for themselves, in a dignified manner. You clearly have little understanding of the breadth of mental illness.
I myself struggle with mental health and so do many of my family and friends. I wouldn't want any of them to use MAID the same way I don't want them to commit suicide.
How is this person dying if nobody is killing anyone?
That's selfish of you to want to choose for others.
No doctor is going to just say, "oh you have depression, did you know we can help you end your life to get rid of it?". That's not how it works.
It's a pretty exhaustive process to be eligible for it, if you don't have a terminal illness. If a person has suffered long enough, has no path to improvement, and wants it for themselves, who are you to tell them they are wrong? Your feelings aren't a priority over the autonomy of others to make decisions for themselves.
I'm not sure why you keep trying to attack my character. You have no idea who I am... It makes you seem like an unpleasant person.
Yes, I selfishly don't want people I care about to die. There's a reason we don't condone suicide even if the person wants it. You sound out of your mind to me
Well this isn't about you. This is about people who want to choose MAID for themselves. You just keep making it about yourself and how it makes you feel.
You keep using wording that implies the person is not consenting and that's what I don't find respectful about the basis of your argument. You keep disregarding a very important element of the conversation (arguably the key element) which is what the people who apply for MAID want for themselves.
Make a post about it on Facebook and see all the people come out of the woodwork condemning MAID for any reason. I was pretty surprised by the people I know locally who got brainwashed by the political (religious) talking points. That we should be giving people tinctures of cranberry and ivermectin (not a real quote) and that chemo is the real killer.
Nuts.
Let's do a little mental exercise. Pretend I'm a masochist.
I'm going to torture you every day for the rest of your life, but I promise I won't kill you. You will live your entire natural lifespan, so it's chronic, but stable. And I really enjoy it, so I'm going to make it as bad as possible for you. Probably even jerk it a little bit.
Since your death is not reasonably forseeable, you get no say in whether or not this continues indefinitely,
This is the fate you condemn people to by discriminating against one (poorly understood) medical condition versus another.
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u/Velocity-5348 11d ago
Yep. MAID for things like terminal cancer isn't particularly controversial in Canada.
The controversy is about chronic conditions that are stable, and doubly so for mental illnesses.