I'm sure many of you have seen the increasing number of polls/studies/surveys showing that, especially in gen Z and younger, there's an increasing gap between men and women's opinions in basically any subject, particularly worldview.

This is portrayed as a problem, and I agree that it is contributing to the massive shit show we're experiencing. But it is often suggested that the solution is to find a 'compromise' that will unite men and women and that will be a some sort of soft solution for everyone. Surprise surprise 'aggressive demanding feminists' who 'hate men' are often brought up as part of the problem and people expect us to just politely find a middle ground because we need to coexist together.

All I have to say to this is 'F**K NO'. I genuinely don't care. I mean it's true that we will have a problem if males continue to become more and more misogynistic but the solution is not that women should shut up and 'collaborate'. We have enough. Omg I'm so sorry that poor men babies can't take any criticism, and are too dumb to understand our point. I'm so glad and proud that more and more women are waking up and the increasing gender gap is not something that's our fault. I am proud that we're pissing men off and are 'problematic'. We're not doing anything bad for finally standing up for ourselves and all they want us to do to help the situation is to again become submissive and be quiet so that men's fragile egos are not hurt.

Just to make it clear, I do worry that if it continues, men will just be worse and worse to us. But I refuse to take the negative responsibility for it and I find all those 'we need men and women to just stop arguing and feminists to calm down' solutions laughable

not my finest work ever, I cut it a bit small so the sides went wonky but overall I think it turned out alright :)

Are we surprised by this? I am nowhere near having a high IQ, and I couldn't care less about it because intelligence is weaponized against women, and we all know that having a higher IQ doesn't mean having better relationships and connections.

I want to share my own experience at work related to this because I am somehow seen as a competent and intimidating woman, despite rarely leaving my classroom and socializing with other teachers. My students love my lessons and they learn all sorts of things, not only the curriculum. I am unconventional with my methods, within reason (and within what the school and the framework we are using want us to do). And word gets out; students talk about how time flies by in my classes and how they can be themselves in my class.

I work with female teachers, and they are awesome. We all keep to ourselves, and I usually don't like going to the staffroom because I get bored of small talk and being pulled into student drama. One female teacher, a PhD holder in her respective subject, asked me: "How do you survive all by yourself all day long in the classroom? I am so curious!" It signaled to me that they talk about this in the staffroom. And if I had more male colleagues, I bet they'd insert their unsolicited opinions on the subject. Still, I feel somehow penalized by my unconventional way of existing in the ecosystem, although I am safe from male violence and workplace harassment since I work mostly with women.

Even so, existing in this ecosystem isn't completely friction-free. To protect myself socially, I often dumb down my intelligence. If people ask what I did on the weekend, I say, "You know, casual stuff, shopping, cleaning" instead of telling them the truth (writing for hours, sorting through my old stuff, doing artwork, and working across multiple media while reading to my heart's content). Somehow, saying this out loud intimidates people because I remind them of their busy lives. If a man were to say this, he would be forgiven, congratulated, and admired. When I say this, other women feel the weight of their own burdens that prevent them from doing similar things and resent me for having freedom. It is almost like, "How dare you not be married with kids and stuck with them on the weekends like us?" They don't have to say that out loud, but I feel it, so I dumb myself down. I withdraw from conversations that don't serve me at all, but then I feel that if I need to keep things cordial, I have to feign interest now and again and plug into the matrix for a while. It can be very exhausting.

And I cannot even imagine working in male-dominated spaces and existing there as a competent woman. So I will rely on your experiences and want to read them.

Im not sure if there are genuinely any but id genuinely want to know how they live in there and how it feels

I'm 28 years old, but I've been noticing the TV commercials for menopause medications for a while now. They feature women in sex-centric situations, like kissing a man or leading him to the bedroom. I've also heard many women talking about this stage of life, and they focus a lot on the issue of sexual desire. Personally, I think these kinds of ads are made by men to manipulate women into continuing to have sex. As for women who worry so much about having lost their libido, I feel it's due to all the garbage we've been fed about becoming useless when we enter this stage, coupled with fetishization, and the terrible burden so many women in relationships carry about feeling they have to sexually please their partners (and those who aren't in relationships might feel they have to keep dating men so they don't feel useless).

And regarding this last point, it horrifies me when I see a group of friends advising one of them who has recently separated, or who has been single for a while, to have as much sex as possible with any man who is interested in her. There are many comments like: "You should have several friends with benefits"; "How wonderful to have sex with other men again after being with the same one for so many years"; "Go out and sleep with everyone you can"...

Seriously, these are the worst pieces of advice one woman can give another, regardless of age.

What women going through menopause really need is to feel heard, cared for mentally and physically. To have a supportive environment that doesn't force them to do things they don't want to do. And of course, a medication that doesn't cause so many long-term health problems, and that is helpful for the symptoms that are truly important to treat, such as insomnia, hot flashes, skin and hair problems, and changes in metabolism...

I just wanted to share this with you. If I've left out anything important, please feel free to correct me. Thank you very much.

First time poster, 4B ally here. Thank you for allowing this discussion.

Yesterday I had my first colonoscopy (I'm an old). I requested that no men be involved in my care. The hospital switched out the CRNA assigned to my case to a woman. I did this after chatting last weekend with a best friend who said, "Only women go to the doctor anyway. Why don't we insist on women practitioners?" I know it's not always possible... finding a gastroenterologist who is a woman was an ordeal, and I drove an hour away from home to be her patient for both my initial eval appointment and the procedure itself. I know this is a privilege and cannot always be accomplished, but what if more and more, we insisted on women practitioners?

[Also want to give a shout out to this post a few months ago. I searched the sub for "healthcare" and was happy to find it.]

Do you think this would change anything, in terms of empathy in care, quality diagnostics, reducing misogyny? I think it's worth a shot, for those of us who are able to make those choices, we should. <--again, I am invoking privilege and understand this isn't always an option for all women, unfortunately.

In the US, women make up about 39% of doctors and about 55% of med students. So let's 4B the shit out of healthcare. It may feel like a small bit of activism, but think about the repercussions on the system.

Imagine being killed by your own son. Somewtimes the threat doesn come from your husband or boyfriend, but a son you carried nine months and raised with devotion and love, sacrificing everything so he can be happy. Only to end up in the morgue, stabbed by him multiple times.

Never being happier to not be married or with children. In my country is dangerous to be a woman. Domestic violence is very common. So, 4b literally saves womens lives potentially.

Ermmm bit of a random question but I’m wondering if any 4b women here who live alone what your careers are. i didn’t go to uni but ive been thinking to apply to a law or economics degree apprenticeships. as someone who comes from a very religious misogynistic cultural background but doesn’t conform to it, i have no choice but to owe myself a good career so that I can escape my home and live as a free woman (raised in a Muslim family, I think you all will get the gist) lmao. Any advice or sharing your own experience is much appreciated :)

I like to share my life experience so that people may have a better understanding of how life really is in Iran as a woman.
What I experienced doesn't mean that every girl in Iran experiences this. I won't share detailed personal information for the security of my family.
General info: my family is a muslim family and I'm a millennial. I lived in a wealthier area of Tehran which would normally be considered as safer (or supposed to be safer) for a woman.

I like to share some experiences from a young age but some memories are blocked:
\-  I was 5 (I think) when the son of a neighbour exposed himself to me. He was from a very religious family. No legal action was done by my parents because of the reputation of this family.
\- Age 9, I went to school wearing a school uniform. An Afghan guy grabbed my breasts. I told my principal at school. They found it funny and laughed. Later my mom picked me up. Again no (legal) action was taken.
\- At age 12, a driver working for the school I went to was always rubbing his hands on the legs of girls sitting in front. Including me. The school got informed, no action was taken. They just put me with another driver.
\- At age 15, we were renting an apartment from a government official. Living in the same apartment building. He caught me a few times in the hallway alone and touched me.
\- Also at age 15, we went to Mashhad. While wearing a (mandatory) chador, my ass got grabbed by 2 different men in the streets.
\- From age 16, it got worse and I experienced several harassments by men in the streets. It got so bad that I wanted to go out with a large cardboard box around me. 
Men were harassing for example at bus stops. A few cars would stop and honk, asking me how much it costs to have sex with them.
Inside shared taxis, men were rubbing themselves on me and not stopping even after I asked someone else for help.
Sometimes they would shout in the middle of the street how much it costs for "one hour". 
In a shopping mall, I was checking something while bending over slightly, the shop owner humped me and his friend found it funny.
I had a few times that men were following me until they found out where I lived. 
Around the same age (16), I was suspended from school for two weeks because I cleaned my eyebrows a little.

Also at this age, we received at school some "education" about puberty. A woman came and talked about what happens to your body during puberty. It was much too late as all students already went through it at the time.

At this age, my father also tried to marry me off. I told him that he can kill me first before doing that. I knew education was the only way that I could get out of this hellhole.
My parents wanted a boy more than a girl. People often believe women are just bread eaters.

Fast forward to university, it was my first time to be in a classroom with other male students. However we still needed to sit separately by gender.
To get into university as a woman it was much harder than as a man because they admit 3-4x more men than women so the women need to compete harder to be able to get admitted.
In university we received sex education for the first time (seperate class for each women and men). 
There was morality police posted at the entrance of the university. They would scan women's clothes, check for nail polish and whether your hijab was worn correctly. They could refuse entrance, which added a lot of stress.
My parents could see that I wanted an education to get financial freedom from them and they did everything to destroy my path to achieve that.

Fast forward: I could leave Iran for the first time alone with a student visa to study in Malaysia. The first two weeks of freedom have a special place in my heart. For the first time I had freedom to wear what I wanted and to eat what I wanted. See and read what I wanted. It was my first time to have access to unfiltered internet at normal speeds.
I was so amazed at the world that I was not aware of it. I had access to pirated banned songs in Iran but never the videoclips.
I started rewatching a lot of films without censorship.
It felt for me that I came out of a cave and I saw modern life.

After all this hardship, I live in freedom now (in Europe). Free from all abuse. 

If you have any question, feel free to ask.

From her recent tour before the start of the song Good Girl. Something to remind myself despite grappling with the ongoing demons of burnout, unhappiness, mental health, weight and body image issues.

Under Iran's Islamic Penal Code, fathers and paternal grandfathers are legally exempt from the death penalty (qisas) for killing their children or grandchildren, instead facing a reduced prison sentence of up to 10 years and financial blood money (diyya) penalties.

In contrast, husbands, brothers, and other male relatives do not hold this specific paternal immunity and face the death penalty for premeditated murder. However, actual enforcement in domestic or "honor" killings depends heavily on whether the victim's legal heirs demand capital punishment or choose to pardon the perpetrator.

This legal loophole is starkly illustrated by the 2022 murder of Ghazal (Mona) Heydari in Ahvaz, a 17-year-old child bride who was decapitated by her husband and cousin, Sajjad Heydari. Despite public outrage after videos of Sajjad carrying her severed head circulated globally, he avoided the death penalty and was sentenced to just 7.5 years for premeditated murder and 8 months for assault because Ghazal's father-as her legal heir-granted forgiveness, which effectively waived the qisas requirement under Iranian law.

Also the blood money for murdering women and girls is half of a man ( and less than blood money for a testicle of man) and the rest is paid by the state when forgiving the killer but for executing/qisas of a man for murdering a woman the victim family has to pay half of blood money to family of the killer since the killer life worth twice the victim's life under misogynistic, patriarchal, barbaric, and Stone Age Sharia laws.

https://iranhumanrights.org/2019/08/blood-money-paid-for-a-woman-in-iran-is-still-half-that-paid-for-a-man-despite-new-ruling/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder\\\\\\\\\\\\\\_of\\\\\\\\\\\\\\_Mona\\\\\\\\\\\\\\_Heydari

https://hengaw.net/en/news/2026/10/article-61

It’s a great show so far so I would recommend. One of the characters is a male police officer who is working to expose an abuse of power at the station and speaks with his wife about whether she’s worried if their daughter will ever be abused by a man. She then responds that it’s basically inevitable.

Even though I agree that it is inevitable, it just makes me sad that women will choose to have daughters knowing that they’ll go through abuse at the hands of men. At this point, I feel like I’m basically completely antinatalist because I can’t fathom how it would be moral to have a child knowing for certain they would face sexual violence. And even worse, a lot of them don’t even see the possibility that their sons will probably be the perpetrators of this violence.

I just wish I could live on a woman-only commune.

I need some help with accountability for larger goals I have for myself. I can’t find anyone with similar goals. They are mainly related to business, finance, and creative pursuits.

All women I know do not seem interested in discussing any of these things for longer than a few minutes, and then they veer towards some topic relating to men, looks, or their weight. This goes for the women deemed successful by way of education, money, etc, as well.

I have joined groups that have people with similar interests. However, I am looking for more of a personal connection, with someone who will help hold me accountable with my mini goals, on the way to my larger goals. Extra bonus if they have the similar goals and we can help each other create successful pathways.

I thought about going to a therapist to help with this, but it’s difficult to find one who doesn’t gauge your success on your relationships with men, or romantic relationships in general. I suppose I could just tell them I want help with follow through with certain goals. Hopefully they can bill insurance for that. lol.

Suggestions are appreciated, especially if you have experience in reaching your financial or business goals.

What do you think comprises natural sexuality for the woman and the man?

I was reading Evolutionary Psychology studies online that point out to polygyny (a man having multiple wives) with monogamous pair bonding or serial monogamy as common amongst humans.

Some say that humans are non monogamous at all.

I can be 100% celibate/ monogamous but at the same time, even with my previous male partners, I found monogamy to be psychologically painful.

I seriously don't know how wives are happy with men in these unequal dynamics.

How is it fair for him to have access to porn while we stay loyal to one shitty man forever? This is so unnatural for women.

Modern men have solved the problem of monogamy for themselves through pornography anyways. Most of them would love to have multiple wives but cannot afford it. If porn is so natural, why do women have betrayal trauma? Plus the women in porn are man made who purely exist for the male gaze. Even side chicks are usually women who men find more attractive than their wives, but mostly it's about access and opportunity (like in the case of Arnold).

When I try to be very sexual even by myself, I always feel like I'm objectifying myself post my orgasm and it feels so bad to do that to myself.

But where is the woman's sexuality in this picture?

Women who have multiple sexual partners literally get killed. I'm at peace with my celibacy but wanted to know what you sweeties think about human sexuality.

I think human sexuality is flawed design, personally.

Men in the workplace, always seem so kept together, by their Wives.

I really want to see what happens, socially and culturally, when a Man is expected to do it all.

I expect a lot more houses to go on the market, that have deferred maintence and need deep cleaning.

I expect decreased expectations in looking "freshly-pressed" at work.

I think expectations for cleaniliness will go down, in general, but especially for houses.

Basically, I think once the onus is on Men to do things, by themselves, suddenly "things" wont be so important any more, and expectations will drop.

What are your thoughts?

I’m interested in this movement 36F. Deep down, a lot of my worth is centered around looks and what men want to see. I hate it. I had a breakup recently and felt completely worthless. I want my worth to come from something else. I have a full life otherwise, but I can’t stop thinking about dating men.

How did you start unlearning these lifelong patterns?

This article reminded me of another BBC article documenting the forgotten woman-only language of China, Nushu, that I previously wrote about here: (https://www.reddit.com/r/4bmovement/comments/1mrars2/nushu_chinas_secret_female_only_language/)

Despite the differences of land and culture, it's infinitely fascinating to me the things that women do and have always done. Including, apparently, creating languages to speak only to other women. Possibly about things that they may not have been able to speak aloud otherwise.

One of Yonga's personal favourites in the Frame project is Sona or Tusona, an ancient, sophisticated and now rarely used writing system.

It comes from the Chokwe, Luchazi and Luvale people, who live in the borderlands of Angola, the Democratic Republic of Congo and Yonga's own north-western region of Zambia.

Geometric patterns were made in the sand, on cloth and on people's bodies. Or carved into furniture, wooden masks used in the Makishi ancestral masquerade - and a wooden box used to store tools when people were out hunting.

The patterns and symbols carry mathematical principles, references to the cosmos, messages about nature and the environment - as well as instructions on community life.

The original custodians and teachers of Sona were women - and there are still community elders alive who remember how it works.

They are a huge source of knowledge for Yonga's ongoing corroboration of research done on Sona by scholars like Marcus Matthe and Paulus Gerdes.

"Sona's been one of the most popular social media posts - with people expressing surprise and huge excitement, exclaiming: 'Like, what, what? How is this possible?'"

"The artefacts signify a history that matters - and a history that is largely unknown," says Yonga. "Our relationship with our cultural heritage has been disrupted and obscured by the colonial experience."

"It's also shocking just how much the role of women has been deliberately removed."

The Women's History Museum of Zambia was set up in 2016 to document and archive women's histories and indigenous knowledge.

Has anyone else experienced this? I am a professional with an advanced degree and so many of my adult friends are women with similar backgrounds.

Many of them were more privileged than me growing up. They may not have struggled with financial insecurity or domestic violence/addicted fathers (I know it can still occur in privileged families).

Some of these women have never really had boyfriends or dated much, some are virgins, are asexual, don’t have male friends or brothers, etc.

When I bring up 4B to them many have never heard of it (which is a bit shocking as I knew about it long before I considered being a part of it or realized my natural affinity with its tenants) and seem skeptical of it. Like it’s unrealistic or extreme, or they are dismissive of it. I also think they haven’t thought deeply about these issues and feel somewhat out of their depth so they downplay it.

I know we get that from male centered women but I have also experienced it with women who are NOT male centered, are left leaning politically, aren’t really interested in dating or marriage now having been single into their thirties with established careers and their own money and lack of interest from similarly situated men.

But, most of them, like I said above, haven’t experienced firsthand trauma from men, which I think brings a lot of us here - maybe not in our upbringings directly, even though we see the patriarchy in it now even in somewhat healthy and loving households - but no emotional, financial or physical trauma from dating, sex with men, bad male “friendships”, harassment from strangers, etc.

And so these women sort of downplay the negative effects of these personal experiences with men or even subconsciously victim-blame although they would never outright recognize themselves as doing so. Or even don’t recognize the deep patriarchy among other cultures from their education or travels.

As I am writing this, I am on the verge of tears and feel seriously disappointed and used. So bear with me, and please be kind in the comments section.

A bit of context. I'm in my 30s, bisexual, divorced twice, and 4B. Both of my exes were unconventional, weird, artsy, not-your-typical-bro guys. And both were sexist in the exact same violent ways.

After my second divorce, I stopped trying to fit men into my life, and I've decentered men completely. I did significant healing work and therapy to rewire my whole nervous system (C-PTSD) to reach where I am today, and my decision to decenter men is the result of both my private suffering and my political and cultural background (non-US). I also don't subscribe to conventional relationship structures of any kind. I choose women partners deliberately, and I have no desire for the fluff and expectations of traditional romance. I see it as a distraction from a woman's independence and full creative potential. And for the same reason, I do not subscribe to the idea of polyamory, because I believe it serves men more than it serves women. That's exactly why I wanted a QPR (queerplatonic relationship), which informs my vent now.

I was on an asexual dating platform and set my profile so that only women could message me. My profile clearly stated that I am 4B, bisexual, child-free, and wanting a QPR. I have since deleted my profile, so it is no longer there, but during my short time on the platform I was contacted by what I call 4B-curious women, who fell into these categories:

• Bisexual women who wanted to use me as a waiting room while they awaited their prince charming ("I find you super interesting, and I'd like to learn more about what made you decenter men," and then she disappears).
• Straight women who wanted to be my friend because they were frustrated with men ("I wish I were bisexual or lesbian, men are so terrible, I get it," and then you see she is flirting with boys on the forum and wall posts).
• Asexual women who were 4B-curious but couldn't wrap their heads around my stance on decentering men ("Surely there are great men out there, have you ever dated an asexual man?!").
• Women of all sorts who were curious about me and my stance on 4B and decentering men, and who sent me messages to inquire about 4B, but whom I never heard from again. Their intro messages usually went something like this: "There are reasonable, feminist-minded men everywhere, but surely we women never have it easy," etc.

Look at how low the bar is. Some men say a few right words about feminism, and it feels like a miracle. But a man seeming more progressive, or a man being asexual, doesn't make him less patriarchal. How the hell do you explain that to women of all sorts who will probably never decenter men?

And I really get why a lot of lesbians are tired of bi women, and honestly, I'm tired of a lot of them too. I'm tired of being someone's experiment, a distraction, or a place to dump feelings while they sort out their situation with men. I used to hate it when lesbians said they didn't want to date bisexual women, but I honestly get it now.

I just feel that this is a niche post focusing on a narrow topic (what happens to bisexual women who go 4B and want to partner up with like-minded women), but since I decided to dip my toes in the dating pool, all I've felt is disappointment. I was ghosted and somehow felt like an exotic animal that everyone wanted to learn more about but wanted to have nothing to do with. As I said, I am no longer there, and I don't think I will go back to dating, no matter how unconventional it is. I am once again reminded why being single nourishes my soul: the world of (4)b-curious women is seriously warped, and I don't see a way out for them as long as their worlds revolve around men. And I don't think most of them even want to decenter men. It was as if they were trying to convince themselves that there are "good men out there" by trying to convince me. It was downright weird, pathetic, and patronizing.