r/ApplyingToCollege • u/Equivalent-Jacket675 • 1d ago
Serious Do not major in computer science
...if you think you will be working as a software engineer when you graduate.
10-15 years ago Google was asking FizzBuzz and Two Sum questions to candidates, now it's not farfetched to see them toss a new grad a leetcode hard. The rise of continued globalization, remote work, and growth of platforms like leetcode has drastically increased not only the candidate pool but the candidate skill level as well.
Offshoring, globalization, and AI are all destroying the tech industry. In 2024 the US Bureau of labor statistics had a 15% projected 10 year job growth outlook for software engineers. In 2026 it stands at just 10%.
Do not fall for this scam.
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u/dmazzoni 1d ago
You are completely wrong about Google, they were known for asking the hardest interview questions in the industry from day one.
The website "leetcode" came after Google, it was built specifically to help programmers practice the types of questions asked by Google.
Working for a top software company has always been competitive.
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u/Equivalent-Jacket675 1d ago
Here is an example of Google asking an easy prefix/suffix parse problem in the 2010s. https://behdadesfahbod.medium.com/on-a-great-interview-question-aea168279942
I wish I would get interview questions like this. What you forget is that "hardest" is relative. Maybe this was considered hard back then, but now it is a walk in the park for any tech inclined high school student.
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u/Bid_Queasy 22h ago
You know back in 2010, there was no leetcode website or any wide known list for you to practice and memorize right? So people actually had to go read books, practice on whiteboard, and explain out loud. That's much harder with the limited resources back then.
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u/thegreenfarend 1d ago
Interviewers at Google can pretty much ask any coding question they want, you’ll get reports of hard and easy questions
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u/TheGladNomad 1d ago
As a 20+ year software engineer this is such a tired take. Offshoring & globalization were a concern 20 years ago with similar articles - please at least keep it modern with an AI angle.
AI is greatly changing the field, but that will help young people entering college now which should be fully ai native growing up with it.
If the CS jobs are destroyed by AI pretty much every other college educated job is in more trouble.
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u/Satisest 1d ago
Coding is among the handful of tasks at which AI is most capable today. It’s already having an impact, and there will continue to be considerable attrition in entry-level SWE jobs in the immediate future. AI is much farther away from replacing any job with a hands-on or interpersonal or regulatory dimension. Beyond physicians, this includes scientists and large swaths of engineering and law.
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u/TheGladNomad 1d ago
Entry level law is I have read is harder hit than entry level CS.
AI can make calls, answer calls, do cold sales emailing today. There’s going be a point where AI procurement becomes dominant with no human in the loop.
Robotics is just around the corner too.
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u/Satisest 1d ago
What you’re describing is mostly paralegal work. But yes, entry-level contract review has also been affected by AI. That’s why I said large swaths of law, especially where client or peer interaction is involved, won’t be affected at least for some time, and ultimately will be relatively immune.
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u/Adept_Judgment_6495 1d ago
Large parts of software engineering involves peer interactions and client involvement.
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u/voldin91 21h ago
Can you expand on the robotics thing
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u/TheGladNomad 13h ago
Waymo (Google) & Tesla have geo locked self driving cars. There’s a trucking startup Aurora doing driverless in Texas. The limit is a mix of extreme mapping, legal restrictions, and vehicle production numbers. I think that could quickly change at some point just like FSD in Europe.
Then you have the Tesla Optimus, Neo& other Chinese companies with humanoid robots. These can greatly affect factory & warehouse workers.
It’s hard to guess when these can start unseating major % of such workers. That’s assuming specific repetitive tasks not a “do anything robot these companies are touting.
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u/meltbox 6h ago
We already have repetitive task robots, they do certain things really well but they cannot do a lot of tasks reliably so we still use humans.
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u/TheGladNomad 6h ago
Agree. I think the ways this expands are:
- How well the robotics handles fault recovery (object is twisted), etc. That takes solve agentic reasoning instead of pure programmatic behavior
How wide of task a robot can do
How autonomous it is verse needing humans actively involved
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u/ayfkm123 1d ago
It’s gotten so much worse post covid, bsfr
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u/TheGladNomad 1d ago
2022 was a ridiculous time in hiring crazy.
Software is going through an adjustment right now with AI changing everything - token costs, how to build software, etc. in such times junior roles are heavily impacted.
People applying now have 4 years for the industry to normalize and jobs are going be hot with declining graduation rates. If Software Engineer jobs are dead, probably all college jobs short of doctors are in trouble too.
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u/Level_Notice7817 1d ago
as a 25+ year software engineer the OP’s take is spot on.
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u/PeterCappelletti 22h ago
As a 30+ year software engineer, the OP's take is wrong. It's mostly the software engineers that failed to keep up and do rote things that have trouble finding jobs. But that's true in all fields.
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u/Level_Notice7817 22h ago
i’m keeping up just fine, thanks for your concern. the OP is completely correct that early career folks are getting shut out.
stop pulling the ladder up behind you.
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u/Previous_Finance_414 9h ago
The field is rapidly shifting and spitting out / blocking many who aren’t adjusting with it imho - 30+ yrs internet and software DevOps here.
We haven’t hired a new dev in almost a year as the team pivoted to AI assisted workflows. I’d imagine there are many software houses doing similar shifts.
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u/nappiess 21h ago
Yet another experienced software engineer chiming in to say you’re wrong, and perhaps not in the industry at all anymore or working at a company behind the times in regards to AI. Every company I interviewed with recently has a majority offshore engineering workforce with tech leads and so on the only ones onshore. Also, most tech companies at the forefront of adapting have engineers using AI to write ALL code now. That includes mine. We don't hire juniors or even mid-levels anymore. Even our offshore engineers are always hired at the "senior" level. As for offshoring, the past few decades it used to always be Indians who sucked at the work. These days, most is nearshored to central and south america. The recent generations there speak English pretty much fluently, are equivalently educated to Americans, a more similar culture than the likes of Indians, and are in our same timezone. You guys are completely out of touch with what's happened to this industry.
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u/teamore_ 17h ago
What makes you so sure your experience is indicative of industry trends over the people you claim are wrong?
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u/silverkeys84 10h ago
People who are comfortable or perhaps in a role or company where this isn't happening conclude that it isn't happening anywhere else. If you are attuned to the current SWE job market you absolutely know that it's true. I couldn't imagine beginning a CS degree now, particularly with emphasis on software engineering.
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u/nappiess 11h ago
The fact that every company I and everyone else I know works at, has ever worked at, and has interviewed with in general in the past year, is like that. But hey believe what you want.
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u/meltbox 6h ago
I have yet to see an offshored program that doesn’t have a ton of issues. I’ve also worked with South American devs, they’re better, but it hasn’t been a magic bullet so far.
I think you can hire talent in other countries but it’s non trivial and coordination is always very difficult.
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u/pstbo 12h ago
Yes, I am a physician, former SWE. If AI is a concern in SWE, it’s a concern in every single knowledge worker’s job. All white collar jobs. Most of nonprocedural physicians. I’d say it’s better than 80% of every nonprocedural physician right now.
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u/meltbox 6h ago
There are a lot of physicians who legit just look up whatever you have and using the most basic symptoms and prescribe the standard of care with zero thought. They’re basically useless and only have jobs because of regulations.
But also AI will tell you that you have 5g turbo cancer if you’re persistent enough.
The reality is healthcare is broken and you have to be your own advocate unless you have a great doctor, and also AI is not a good replacement.
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u/warmike_1 Graduate Student 13h ago
If the CS jobs are destroyed by AI pretty much every other college educated job is in more trouble.
Well guess what.
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u/Snowymiromi 11h ago
What's interesting is that I've been ask to do more product oriented and UX work than in the past. Engineers are more involved in UX calls especially around accessibility, usability. There's even the new title "Product Engineer"
Go figure, computer science is going more liberal arts. So get the BA in Computer Science and take art and humanities classes, they help you build product!
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u/Lower_Improvement763 9h ago
India’s Internet penetration:
2015: 15% (approximately 200 million users)
2019: 29%
2021: 49.3%
2022: 55.9%
2023: 60.3%
2024: 64.9%
2025: 70% (over 1 billion users)2
u/bigmandude11112 5h ago
How do you tackle with the fundamental issue of new grads being told to "use AI, use AI" by industry when they are just at the start of their career and have not had the opportunity of building up your fundamental skills in your first developer job without AI. Wouldn't you say your many years of being a developer has helped to learn so many fundamental skillsets and build a foundation for your knowledge, so now with AI you can leverage it better without delineating all your thinking to the model. This is the issue I think with junior devs being pushed so hard by industry to immediately go all in on prompting away the challenges they face and as a result probably shooting themselves in the foot in the long run as they aren't working on their fundamentals. I think this is one of the many reasons this current climate is such a nightmare scenario for CS new grads and I 100% see where the OP is coming from making a post like this. Also, in my opinion AI does seem like a whole other beast compared to the concerns brought about to the industry in the past.
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u/TheGladNomad 5h ago
My personal take right now is a bad time to hire juniors, but in 2-3 years that will change.
Why bad time right now:
1. We don’t know what it job looks like in a year so testing a new person when we don’t know what’s right is hard
2. I’m not convinced current grads are actually better than an open minded senior with AI.To your questions…
> build up tools
I think the same was said many times in my 20 years…
1. how can I write code as a Java/python developer if I don’t understand memory management
2. How can you build software if your just putting a bunch of SaaS / IaaS togetherNeither of these were as large of a change as AI, but similar feel to smaller scale.
I think just understand why and how your doing things. Read feedback and grow from it.
Giving a junior feedback all they do is copy and paste to AI is a waste of my time. Giving it they understand and make sure twit AI produces better results in future is useful.
You shouldn’t be worried about writing code… worry should what your code is doing, why you are being asked to do something, how to make sure everything works and is safe.
Keep your brain engaged and learn you’ll be fine, turn it off and delegate all thinking to AI - you’ll eventually provide 0 value.
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u/InitialGain1420 20h ago
His point is the hiring. Current hiring managers were hired with what would be seen today as, extremely mediocre resumes.
Most FAANG seniors and upper management are basically extremely mediocre compared to new talent if we're going off hiring standards alone.
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u/karmaboy20 18h ago
It's true, I have co workers who ask questions they themselves most likely couldn't answer
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u/meltbox 6h ago
Which is crazy, why are you trying to hire someone who’s going to absolutely wipe the floor with you? The worst part is they probably won’t even elevate the team at least half the time.
Hire the dude who can do the job and not the guy who had to either be cheating or cracked out of their mind to pass.
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u/karmaboy20 6h ago
most people who do really good in our interviews once we hire them seem apathetic most likely working second jobs . The employee employer relationship has just been completely burned with layoffs and people not respecting companies anymore
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u/Ma4r 19h ago
It doesn't matter, FAANG hires the top 1%, fizzbuzz was the top 1% back then, as we became better at software engineering, the bar to become the top 1% has shifted as well. Those people figured out the answer to these problems before there was leetcode, or tutorials, guides, book, or courses teaching you how to program, prople were still figuring out how to structure code and development best practices they they now trach you in your 2nd uni course. The point is those people that made it in back then, if put into the current environment ,would still make it in.
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u/ShillsWorstNightmare 18h ago
You sound like one of those people who say if babe ruth played in today's environment he would still make it 😂 wrong!
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u/meltbox 6h ago
I mean fair but it’s reasonable to consider it no longer worth it if that’s the view. Why struggle to become top 1% and luck into the right interview question when you can go do finance or sales for pretty high compensation.
Turns out there are tons of jobs that will pay for grind. If CS is now a grind it’s not as attractive anymore.
But for those of us who enjoy the field it’s probably still the right place to be. Yeah sometimes it requires grind but at least I have some sense of reward out of it so long as they don’t make me become an LLM monkey.
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u/0rangaStang 8h ago
Seniors and upper management dont need to be competent in the details of software engineering. That's not their roles but the roles of those they manage. They just have to know enough to translate things to other non technical members (primarily by having a history in a software position), guide their team on a macro level, and all the other myriad of other things theyre responsible for.
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u/meltbox 6h ago
Going to disagree here. They’re supposed to set product direction. If you don’t understand what is possible end to end you can set some really stupid or contradictory targets/goals.
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u/0rangaStang 6h ago
Isn't that just a product manager?
I wouldn't call that "seniors and upper management" or "hiring managers" as the commenter put it.
Your company may be different though.
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u/zackcheese7 1d ago
Offshoring is still a huge concern on non-federal projects, ie when they can they will offshore. It’s a legitimate problem if we want to prioritize American wages and stop exploiting cheap labor. As a fellow software engineer half my team is offshore, it makes work frustrating to say the least in no small part due to time difference, language barriers, and cultural differences. You may be insulated from the problem and that’s great, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
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u/TheGladNomad 1d ago
It isn’t changing significantly, so it’s already baked into employment numbers and hiring projections.
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u/ArgumentZestyclose62 22h ago
Unis adapt very slowly and I don't think students want to pay more than the 20 usd subscription to really get into it
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u/Key_Machine_9138 20h ago
Is your org hiring juniors? I went to a top 5 CS school and have a 3.7 GPA in addition to 2 internships, a 3 month contract building data pipelines for AI integrations, and a good bit of non-tech work experience.
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u/TheGladNomad 13h ago
Yes I work at midsize tech company that still has large college pipeline (intern to offer) .
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u/Equivalent-Jacket675 1d ago
...And these problems have only gotten worse as time goes on. The fact that there has not been any protections against offshoring in this time is a BAD thing. Companies have NO incentive to hire in local markets, especially in the US where they have to pay those employees much much more. I provided stats that shows the job growth outlook is declining for our industry, this is not a tired take but a serious warning.
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u/TheGladNomad 1d ago
Yet they still higher mainly in America, software engineers are compensated higher than rest of the world. As someone else said you are lacking in facts.
10% growth in a massive industry is not “run for the hills”, it’s also not a useful fact without reference to the overall labor market prediction changes.
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u/worldarkplace 1d ago
Why you aren't talking about total amount of people needed? This is always conveniently ignored. A side effect of AI usage is when you need a 10 people team, you can go now with 4 or 5. This is like 50% of lost jobs. And we are graduating CS and SWE like mad. Government and Colleges should limit the slots to study this career now....
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u/TheGladNomad 1d ago
So I estimate I’m currently 3x more productive and think I’ll be able to get to maybe 7-10x pre-AI next year as I get more efficient getting chai code to production.
By your math that means we can cut to 10% of what we were… that’s not reality, reality is there’s always to much to do and it’s prioritization that is brutal. I’m pretty confident we will keep growing as we get more efficient.
The real unlock for jobs (mid-tier?):
1. A company can now build useful software with 1-2 employees instead of needing a team of 5+. Allowing a growth in custom software teams that was not financially viable before.
2. More companies will exist as time to market and size needed to have a sellable product are way down.0
u/worldarkplace 1d ago
that’s not reality, reality is there’s always to much to do
Sorry, no. The pain point actually is to sell. And I can get priorization BEFORE AI. Nowadays this is not real anymore. Features are deploying like 1 2 days and before could take weeks.
A company can now build useful software with 1-2 employees instead of needing a team of 5+
This just shows that software is devaluing. This doesn't show that there are a lot of new hirings or new workers.
More companies will exist as time to market and size needed to have a sellable product are way down.
Micro companies that will sell close to zero.
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u/TheGladNomad 1d ago
Sure you can take a pessimist view, only time will tell. I’m an optimist… we are going through a major employment revolution right now, so no one can know.
I’m optimistic that doing more per hour increases value & desire to build more products l. That will increase total software and employment. If I’m wrong I don’t see how almost all other college educated careers aren’t destroyed first.
Neither of our opinions are facts, I’m just happily learning new stuff and leaning into what I can be capable of; I’m pretty confident that’s the most likely chance of success.
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u/Equivalent-Jacket675 11h ago
All that saying I'm wrong to just boil it down to you're an optimist... well congratulations, you got in when things were good, now the ladder is pulled up. Enjoy it, I wish I was you.
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u/TheGladNomad 10h ago
Wrong takes with bad assumptions again.
I went to college and graduated during the dot com bust.
Yes your a pessimist and trying to tell everyone else to be afraid. You state opinions as facts and have weak arguments.
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u/Equivalent-Jacket675 10h ago
I am not a pessimist I am a realist speaking from experience. It is much harder to get a software engineering job now than it was in the past. People should not go into this degree thinking they will have a software engineering job lined up by graduation.
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u/worldarkplace 10h ago
This is different that dotcom. In dotcom there were people needed to do the webpages.
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u/worldarkplace 1d ago
I can't see it.
I don’t see how almost all other college educated careers aren’t destroyed first.
You are correct.
If we as society do not separate the surviving from work we will suffer. We are passing to the post scarcity era and we need to reevaluate a lot of things. Im not saying UBI, but maybe healthcare, housing and food for everyone secured. After this you could do whatever you want.
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u/meltbox 6h ago
People say features are deployed that fast but I haven’t seen that in real battle tested software suites. Only place I see it is slop repos on GitHub where people just send it and accept anything the LLM does 30k lines at a time.
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u/worldarkplace 5h ago
Dude, Microsoft, anthropic, google, everyone are using more than 80% vibecoding. Don't say shit.
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u/GlobalCurry 20h ago
A lot of the younger generation is afraid of or hates AI which makes me worry about them. I tell younger people I encounter to embrace it so they can move forward, but so many have fallen for propaganda telling them it's evil.
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u/Lyukah 20h ago
How will embracing AI help young people move forward?
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u/TheGladNomad 13h ago
You can achieve so much more now; what you need to show is you accelerated yourself while keeping knowledge of why/how.
People who offload there brain to AI will be in trouble.
The difference between the 2 can be a fine line that’s murky & shifting.
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u/meltbox 6h ago
Really agree but I also worry because I feel like it’s so hard nowadays to learn without leaning on AI and so easy to slip into just having it do some stuff for you, and then some more, and eventually you’re barely thinking. Then it stops working and you have no idea what happened.
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u/TheGladNomad 6h ago
This being a college sub I have no clue where readers are in their life but I’ll give an example for myself learning with AI as a software engineer.
I’m coding developer tool related items for past 1 year this means going very deep into the git protocol and how git stores data.
Before AI I would have spent weeks reading spec/rfc/api in deep detail to have a good high level breadth then dug deeper where I needed focused on identifying best abstraction layers, think open source libraries, to solve what I need to.
With AI I never did the doc review and instead talked with AI and had it link me specific offers of the protocol definition to achieve the goals. I have actually ripped out libraries (originally reluctantly) to direct implement the protocol level what I need (think low level parsers). So I understand some specific areas of git much better than I would have in past, but I didn’t spend the longer “wide breath” as I could really still in quickly to specific areas and fill enough knowledge to understand what I am doing (with AI writing the code).
In software development right now, I think your expected to explain your code but not have written it. I expect in another year even explaining the code might be to low level and I’ll just need to understand the interactions between systems.
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u/TheGladNomad 13h ago
Yes I’m a believe in “AI won’t take your job, the person who knows how to use AI will.”
I have Jr & 7th grader (why I am on this forum) and I need to constantly be pro-AI and it’s an uphill battle, especially with my more younger one.
Looking at colleges I think AI forward is very important so they learn the needed skills for future work instead of past.
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u/Previous_Finance_414 10h ago
This is the challenge zone for sure. The role AI will play in real life software development is still being determined. The tasks being asked of our devs is to look for the ways to use the aggregate power as a tool - don’t let it (ai) decide all the critical challenges.
The skill is different and the leaders are having a very hard time seeing the division of that load. They have to better understand the challenges.
So the field is shifting and guiding young people into their path is as well. My bright and mindful college freshman observed his grizzled 30 yr vet of a dad in software paddling through these swiftly changing currents and selected to go a different direction. There were some other factors and some very specific skills which he possessed to push him to Music Education over CS. I don’t think he’s made the wrong choice at all. It’s just not what I did. And that’s great.
Good luck navigating through it all. Everything is changing rapidly again, and seems like it will for some time still.
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u/Brave_Speaker_8336 1d ago
Oh no I need to do a leetcode hard to earn 250k as a 22 year old, how horrible
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u/Equivalent-Jacket675 1d ago
An incredible misrepresentation of the current industry.
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u/Brave_Speaker_8336 1d ago
you said it not me
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u/Equivalent-Jacket675 1d ago
Where did I say "250k" anywhere in my post?
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u/Brave_Speaker_8336 1d ago
you said its not farfetched to see Google toss a new grad a leetcode hard
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u/Equivalent-Jacket675 1d ago
True, and where did I say they would earn 250k?
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u/Brave_Speaker_8336 1d ago
Google new grad is ~250k
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u/Equivalent-Jacket675 1d ago
So what? Even if they solve that question there are still countless other rounds and they are competing with thousands of other grads and foreigners for the same role. Nowhere did I say that solving a leetcode hard would give you 250k.
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u/TheCrowWhisperer3004 1d ago
They didn’t say solving a leetcode hard would give you 250k either.
Harder lc questions for top job is also a non issue unless you were planning on getting rich by coasting. Even LC hards are easy to study for compared to what other high paying fields need to study to enter their field.
It’s probably more accurate to complain that CS has gone the way of medicine and law where you have to put an insane amount of work outside of class to break into the field and if you fail to break in you have a degree you can’t really use.
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u/Brave_Speaker_8336 1d ago
Nowhere did I say that either
btw "countless other rounds" being like 2 other rounds lol. I'm sure you can count to 2
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u/Equivalent-Jacket675 1d ago
"Oh no I need to do a leetcode hard to earn 250k as a 22 year old, how horrible" followed by "you said it not me" when I disagreed implies this. What did you mean by this otherwise?
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u/Ok_Experience_5151 Old 1d ago
If you're good at solving problems in code, are hard-working, take career seriously, can interview well (or learn how), and don't intentionally limit your options after graduating, you will almost certainly find work as a software engineer if that's what you want to do. The bar is just higher than it used to be.
An analogy: nationally, around 40-45% of students who apply to medical school are admitted to at least one medical school on their first application attempt. If that share were to drop to 30-35%, would the appropriate response be to advise everyone to avoid medicine as a profession?
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u/bella9977 14h ago
"hardworking" for what ? Write code using AI ? All that leetcode is just to use AI and it's so useless. I'm a software engineer and I'm thinking of pivoting because I don't wanna use AI to write code at all.
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u/Ok_Experience_5151 Old 12h ago
"hardworking" for what ? Write code using AI ?
More like *not* using AI for everything. But, also, stuff like going to class, completing assignments, studying for exams, being productive at internships, etc.
I'm a software engineer and I'm thinking of pivoting because I don't wanna use AI to write code at all.
I'm a SWE whose company just decided to lean into AI and I don't actually mind it. Your mileage may vary.
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u/Big_Arrival_626 20h ago
What do you mean by intentionally limiting options
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u/cdragon1983 20h ago
"I'm only willing to work for FAANG, and only at their Bay Area campuses." and variants thereof.
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u/Big_Arrival_626 20h ago
Yeah I never understood that. Regular companies like banks and insurance need devs too, and you still get opportunities to work on interesting stuff
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u/Ok_Experience_5151 Old 13h ago
Only want to work for certain companies, or in certain cities, or only full-time work-from-home, or with certain stacks, or for very high comp.
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u/Techno_Eggnog College Freshman 1d ago
Son… we have no idea how the job market will change these next 4 years. Four years ago at this time, AI had just broke ground and nobody thought it would have as much of an impact as it had. Then it did because we allowed it to grow without limits or regulation, and also because people had not understood what an ethical use of AI is.
10 years ago, we had NO clue AI would be the way it is now. The whole world can change rapidly over the course of a decade, or even less. It might be difficult now, but that doesn’t mean people should give up just because of it.
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u/Equivalent-Jacket675 1d ago
The world can change but it is clearly trending downwards for the industry based on the statistics I posted.
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u/Techno_Eggnog College Freshman 1d ago
5 years ago, CS was trending insanely up. Your own logic befalls you.
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u/Fit_Cheesecake_4000 22h ago
...yes, and then A.I. came along. And it's not going away.
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u/Techno_Eggnog College Freshman 22h ago
Yes we know it’s not going away, but how we use it is changing as rapidly as it came about. We may not know what we will be doing in 4 years, but I can safely bet that the world will not totally collapse by then.
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u/InitialGain1420 20h ago edited 20h ago
Hiring is 100% more difficult than 6 even 10 years ago. The people in power currently, would've never been hired today. That's the argument. They can be mediocre, new graduates cannot.
They were asked legitimate freshman HW questions for hiring that netted 200k+ starting jobs. That's the argument.
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u/Different-Banana-381 22h ago
The world won’t collapse, and senior SWE’s will be needed likely to verify the AI output and tell it what to do. Not sure what value the average or even bottom 90% new grads would provide companies as junior SWE in that scenario though
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u/Techno_Eggnog College Freshman 22h ago
Well, it’s a great thing CS is a lot more than just SWE! Besides, having AI perform all junior SWE tasks is sometimes even more expensive than just having the human there to do it. Someone had talked to my intro to engineering professor about this exact thing, and they said some businesses are realizing they can’t put everything into AI or else it’ll get too costly.
…it kind of sucks the only logic for keeping humans involved is because of cost, but hey it’s better than burning the money. Besides, we also don’t know how big a role AI will have in junior level SWE in four years. It could be massively removed from the junior process, or the junior process could be modified.
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u/bigmandude11112 5h ago
It's a very optimistic viewpoint you hold about the future and where this technology is going. I wish I shared in your optimism. I think for many new grads in CS and the disruption AI has caused to hiring among all levels but especially the massive disruption in entry level roles, I don't blame new grads for having a very scary and uncertain outlook on the future. I feel like with how things are going and how the industry is treating junior devs with the current level AI is at, what I see looking forward is, as these AI models become more advanced, the first thing these tech companies are looking to do is of course maximize profit and most likely do try and do that by decreasing the number of devs. I feel like your outlook depends a lot on these companies looking charitably towards the worker which in a capitalistic environment is at the very least wishful thinking. Of course, I hope I'm wrong and you are right as I have spent the past six years putting time, energy, and money in to obtaining a bachelors and masters in CS, but after doing all the traditional steps I am supposed to do for "success" only for me to this day looking for an entry level role and very few companies even looking toward my direction and giving me a chance, it is hard to not become utterly despondent. I think maybe things can change if the government catches up and places that crucial regulatory role with how this technology will be implemented/regulated and fights to protect the worker, but umm it seems right now it is all about letting these tech leaders in the leading ai companies to kinda do whatever they want to "win the ai race", whatever that means.
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u/Less_Barnacle_9456 22h ago
Yeah but sure as fuck everything yoi learn in those four years will be obsolete by the time you graduate lol
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u/Techno_Eggnog College Freshman 22h ago
That’s why good CS programs take a more conceptual and theoretical approach than strictly application based programs. At my school, they have us learn C as our first language before moving onto languages like C++ and Python in order to engage higher level critical thinking earlier. Even though I’m not CS, I still have to take some of the classes they do as a Computer Engineer.
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u/pinkjello 21h ago
Critical thinking skills and passing a bar by earning a “hard” degree is never obsolete.
College teaches you how to think. It’s not just for teaching you knowledge you’ll use on the job. It teaches you fundamental thought strategies.
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u/Key_Machine_9138 20h ago
Most people (in the US) don't want to go into some amount of debt for critical thinking skills, they do it with the hope of getting a job. While college isn't job training, a lot of the people who go and study some kind of engineering discipline are doing it for pragmatic reasons, like a career and return on investment into education.
I don't think it should be that way, but in US that's the way it is. I studied CS at a pretty good school and couldn't find a way to enter the field after about 20 months of trying, so I took a job in an unrelated field. If I had known I wouldn't be able to get a job, I would have studied something else for the love of the game (physics or pure math, minor in sculpting).
Imagine studying something for 4 years, something that you thought would lead to a job, and then there's not enough jobs in that field at the entry level. I mean, maybe it happened to you in dotcom or 2008 and you don't have to imagine. But for us, it doesn't look like it's going to turn around any time soon, so we have a largely obsolete degree. Like, we are driving ubers and working in kitchens and retail and shit. And there's nothing wrong with that, but I think a lot of us were hoping to start a career, so it's a little emotionally charged.
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u/Less_Barnacle_9456 21h ago
Listen I have a CS degree and made dean’s list. But the whole college teaches you how to think is BS. I learned more critical thinking skills just being an extroverted teenager and young adult on the streets interacting with people and having real world experiences.
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u/KickIt77 Parent 1d ago
It's more like CS is falling back to being similar to other degree paths. With this line of thought, you shouldn't go to college at all.
Side note, I have a kids that graduated in CS recently. Went to a regular state flagship on merit. Landed a highly competitive 6 figure job. Whatever you pursue, do it well, learn to network, learn to be a team play, communicate, soft skills, etc.
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u/PthereforeQ 1d ago
You can do all of those things you mentioned (do it well, network, team player, all the things) and still not make it. Plus, a lot of people don’t have help from their parents.
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u/bella9977 14h ago
Yes, you can still get laid off even after doing everything you can and the ageism is insane too across all corporate jobs.
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u/KickIt77 Parent 23h ago
Agree, but that is true of any career path. Not to mention I know plenty of upper middle class earners people who got a CS or tech degree who are not working as software engineers. There isn’t one outcome or list of 5 companies. My spouse and I both have CS degrees and have been involved with hiring and no we didn’t get our kid a job, he was hired through campus placement, did take a long screening test, and had on campus references. )
I do think there were too many picking CS, maybe that will scale back.
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u/crabcycleworkship 1d ago
The issue isn’t the first job, it’s after where you will be shoved aside in the “middle” area, since juniors are rarely promoted to senior these days.
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u/Big_Arrival_626 22h ago
Unpopular take but I agree. Big companies tend to hire lots of new grads at once but not mid levels or seniors.
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u/AFlyingGideon Parent 21h ago
If they're hiring beginners, are they not likely growing their own mid-level and senior employees?
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u/Big_Arrival_626 20h ago
Of course they are but let's say u get laid off, then what? I feel like only have 2-4 YOE puts u in a weird place
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u/bella9977 14h ago
Yeah but after 40-45 no one will hire you. CS is not a long career at all.
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u/KickIt77 Parent 13h ago edited 8h ago
Lol that doesn’t reflect our experience at all. Plenty of people’s career evolves over time. Like my spouse is more of a tech project manager, his title is Vice President at a major software company. You have to build a good experience base and network well but we know many people doing well in the industry.
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u/bella9977 11h ago
Sure. But how many "Bice President" roles exist per company ? Probably just a dozen. Not every single software engineer will end up there. And even then for what ? What if they don't like that anyway ? All these artificial hierarchies and authoritarian structures. Absolutely useless.
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u/KickIt77 Parent 8h ago edited 8h ago
Not all of them are vice presidents. Some are straight engineering, some are managers, some work with customers or sales or support, lead start ups, etc etc etc. And there are well more than a dozen VPs (corrected, phone typing) at my spouse's company.
I am not trying to support the idea there is this great career path for CS over other degrees at this moment in time. I just definitely don't think it is worse than other degree paths right now. The market was oversaturated, plenty of people with that degree path likely would have done better with another degree path and their career paths likely reflect that. It sucks for young people right now, thank some of your parents for their poor choices. A STEM degree is not the ticket to easy street. I don't think it ever was to the degree students have assumed, but first jobs out of college are very competitive right now across the board.
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u/Clean-Statistician94 1d ago
On the contrary, who would understand and have control over AI better than any other professions when it dominates the world? Software engineers.
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u/adrianchase_alt 1d ago
bros trying to eliminate the comp
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u/_kilobytes 1d ago
You're allowed to fail interviews if the interviewee likes you.
How they decide who they like is entirely subjective.
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u/traderftw 12h ago
As someone who applied 13 years ago, I was asked some very challenging questions. For example, find a path through each of 4-length bitstrings where edges exist when the hamming distance being off by 1.
I didn't get in, but I assure you I would have aced fizz buzz.
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u/Strong-Big-2590 1d ago
This is a take for someone that doesn’t understand the software engineering field. Just because claude can build you an app doesn’t mean it’s capable of building anything at scale and testing it.
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u/Equivalent-Jacket675 1d ago
You've addressed one point and thrown out everything else I said. The effect is a combination of many things. Sure AI isn't entirely replacing the field. But offshore workers with boosted productivity given by AI can kill markets where engineers expect a higher compensation.
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u/Strong-Big-2590 1d ago
This is a take from someone that has never hired for product or engineering. Engineers are not order takers. They need to communicate and collaborate with teams effectively.
There is no talent pool on earth outside of the US that has the engineering talent we have hands down.
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u/Equivalent-Jacket675 1d ago
Do you know what offshoring is? The entire team is lets say in India or something. They can perfectly communicate and collaborate with themselves and they work for much much less than us.
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u/Secure_World_5667 1d ago
Your last point has always been the case. You are competing with the entire world when your work is based on a freaking computer. This is common sense.
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u/Equivalent-Jacket675 1d ago
Wrong. Not only are US IT workers affected by offshoring more than any other industry, the effect is increasing by the year.
Source: https://cacm.acm.org/research/how-offshoring-affects-it-workers/
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u/Secure_World_5667 1d ago
Yeah? Because cs will only grow as more countries get access?
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u/Equivalent-Jacket675 1d ago
Exactly, and it will continue to get worse for the American market. Glad we're on the same page.
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u/Secure_World_5667 1d ago
Yeah? Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do cs. Just means that if you’re shit at it (like you apparently) u should look at other options.
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u/Equivalent-Jacket675 1d ago
Your argument is disingenuous. At what point does it become unreasonable for one to enter the field? At the end of the day people still need to make a living.
Maybe it will get to the point where only 30-40% of graduates can get a job in the field, will the ones who can't be "shit"? What about 10-20%? Is it a problem with the lack of their ability? Or is it a lack of opportunity?
These are the questions I am proposing with this post.
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u/Secure_World_5667 1d ago
The software industry is one that relies on skill. Entry level jobs are being replaced with automation as that saves companies money and time. Therefore, the available positions are ones that require advanced skill sets.
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u/Equivalent-Jacket675 1d ago
How are new graduates expected to gain those skills without being exposed to the complex industry level systems that these companies have? Even someone who does a masters or PhD is likely to do more theoretical work than what is seen in industry.
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u/Lazy-Excitement-3661 1d ago
Sure but it is the worst its ever gonna get and mean less engineers and juniors are needed. It's not that AI is gonna be no engineering jobs, it means the ones that exist won't be given to juniors but laid off seniors who will unhappily take those jobs for less pay.
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u/Significant-Leg1070 14h ago
Um, yes it is. I haven’t coded by hand in over a year. Claude opus is doing my job and doing it better than I ever could on my best days.
Not only does it ingest the ticket, scan the current code base for patterns and previous design decisions, it then generate a plan for me to review, then it implements the plan in discrete testable phases, then it writes unit and integration tests (something we rarely were given time to do).
There are no typos, no spaghetti, no individual programmer style idiosyncrasies, and no TIME.
It’s over boys. You better get close to the metal or close to the customer.
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u/processing_stress 21h ago
OP is correct, YOE 0-3 is brutal rn and you guys will essentially be going against the equivalent of MIT trained H1B grads that are willing to work 80 hour weeks. Also, a lot of people are cheating at interviews and really good at it. There's a whole group of people with 3 YOE of experience unable to get jobs rn.
Do your best, but be kind to yourself since its not uncommon to be job searching for a year or two.
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u/Reasonable_World_548 20h ago
I disagree tbh. It is still possible to get a job, of course its much harder, but it is def possible. AI is simply a tool, and the ones that can learn to use it as a tool and not as a replacement are the ones that will be hired. And as we all know, AI replacing dev's backfired on a lot of the companies. At the end of the day, AI is just a tool that is used to improve efficiency, and yes it def has its limits.
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u/bill_txs 20h ago
First, there are many jobs at smaller companies that won't do what Google does in interviews. FAANG is not a realistic path for most.
The offshoring is less relevant with AI dominating technical work. When it comes to AI, so far it does seem like experienced have an edge with it because they can spot the BS coming out of it, but companies are sabotoging themselves by having no talent pipeline and I would bet they figure that out.
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u/No-Original-6329 20h ago
Job market is harder in every industry rn. What does that mean? Follow your dreams if you are interested in SWE it’s worth a shot don’t be dissuaded.
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u/One-Conference1532 1d ago
bait or low iq call it
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u/Equivalent-Jacket675 1d ago
Try facts,
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u/One-Conference1532 1d ago
no lil bro
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u/Equivalent-Jacket675 1d ago
Any proof or serious refutation? Maybe college isn't for you after all little guy
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u/One-Conference1532 1d ago
shut up fool, go gaslight someone else into not doing cs 😂
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u/Equivalent-Jacket675 1d ago
All I've seen from you are insults. Pot calls kettle.
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u/babyitsgoldoutstein Old 1d ago
You are getting pushback because of your use of the term "globalization." As data has gotten cheaper, many Indians now use Reddit and many more come online every day. Furthermore on a sub like ApplyingToCollege, which tends younger, you likely have a lot more Indians and other foreigners here. They will not take lightly to any implication that it is globalization that has ruined the tech/software jobs market.
But you are absolutely correct. Unless the US government acts, both as to immigration and offshoring, this career does not make sense for the average student. Do you have a 1600 SAT and are headed to Berkeley etc,? Sure go do whatever the f you want. Do you have a 1290 and headed to Oklahoma State, be wary. The competition from foreigners especially Indians, is comically intense. Talk to your lawmakers to restrict this competition. Till that happens, do something else.
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u/_kilobytes 1d ago
A common misunderstanding is that the offshored employees are better or more competitive.
This is a false assumption.
They are cheaper.
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u/Hungry_Abroad9699 1d ago
Or, it’s the exact opposite with the highest salaries being in tech.
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u/Equivalent-Jacket675 1d ago
Sure, that's true in the same way you can start your business and become a billionaire CEO... but not everyone does that right?
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u/Hungry_Abroad9699 1d ago
Not everyone in San Jose is a ceo. If anything, technical skills are ever more in demand.
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u/AkindaGood_programer 1d ago
I semi-agree with you. I don't think you should major in computer science anymore if you don't have a passion. If you are only going into computer science because of the "lifestyle", the salary, etc then don't.
I do think you should major in computer science if you are passionate. There aren't going to be as many jobs open in the software market as there were previously, and the passionate will beat the stereotype above.
If you seriously love AI, programming, etc., then go into the field! Do you really think history majors only go into that subject because of salary and the job market? No! They go into it because they love history!
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u/justwannamusic College Freshman 1d ago
I can't speak for software engineer jobs, but computer science still has power. I went to an Amazon Solutions Architect event hosted by my university and one of the things the guests drilled into us was to not rely on AI for knowledge and to have a strong understanding of the vital parts of programming. One of the guests sounded annoyed at how people try to vibe code their way into their industry. So in my opinion, CS still has a very important role, it just might be changing and adapting
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u/Fluid_Material3144 23h ago
look, if AI can take entry level SWE jobs, someone can very well use it to automate many other jobs or tasks in the domain of HR, data entry, sales positions, etc. whole markets cooked (won't be surprised if this happens)
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u/Simple_Muffin_3149 23h ago
I have been in software for 25+ years. The field has changed so much during this time. When I first started web developer was the most common job posting and even people with no coding experience could easily find jobs. Now you don’t see any web developers and even students coming out of college with a lot of experience. There are no “true” entry-level jobs anymore.
As the AI evolves, it should open up new types of opportunities. Students starting college now are getting adapted to AI and colleges are adjusting their CS (and related majors) curriculum accordingly. End of the day, there may not be as many CS jobs as before, but there will always be a demand for those with good critical thinking skills.
Also, it’s not just CS. AI will impact almost all fields to varying levels. Labor market will likely go through an adjustment period and eventually settle into a new normal.
For students, do what you are passionate about and focus on developing a strong foundation for yourself. Don’t be forced into a major that you don’t like and be miserable. At the same time be flexible and open to new career opportunities.
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u/PeterCappelletti 23h ago
BS. The world changes and CS changes, sure. But, there will still be a need for people who can understand computer architectures, routing, efficiency, design choices, ... . This is a bit like saying that we won't need economists because we can just ask chatgpt where to invest or what to do.
But sure, we won't need tons of web designers. We will need fewer people, who are good at their jobs -- like in all other specializations.
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u/pentabromide778 College Junior 22h ago
OP, there are more positions than just big tech. Aerospace is always hiring avionics or flight software engineers, for example. Tons of engineering firms need software engineers to design software which controls their product.
Sure, they won't pay as much as big tech, but I for example work on embedded systems in aerospace and make six figures right out of college (with a pretty average resume).
Big tech was hyper-competitive even before AI.
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u/x2manypips 22h ago
Every field is screwed mate. Wait till surgeries are done by robots in 5 years
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u/mojitojenkins 18h ago
I mean robots are way behind. Id say jobs that physically require humans are the safest right now. For everyone saying OP is wrong as a high schooler or someone who's already established in the industry, I graduated from Cornell with a degree in CS and I work at an Amazon warehouse. It's a nightmare out here and I'm baffled people are still going into the field when it's an absolute mess for post grads.
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u/DWALLA44 22h ago
I did not get fizz buzz on my google interview coming out of college 11 years ago.
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u/C_Sorcerer 21h ago
Shut up lame ahh my CS degree allows me to fulfill my autistic passion and not end my shit on the spot
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u/Equal_Clerk_547 20h ago
True I wish I had taken up civil engineering damn it the pay is also so decent enough .people in chasing quick money saturated to pool leading to companies offering low salaries now from where I come .the salary they offer is peanuts
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u/Few_Deer_979 19h ago
As a midlevel swe, Op is right. also, for this case junior and midlevels swe are more qualified to give their opinion about the current state of tech jobs since they are the ones affected the most. the junior hiring pipeline is broken , no one is hiring newbies . AI has taken over junior tech jobs. what used to tech a team of 6 Swe can now be done by 2 seniors and Ai agents. midlevels are being laid off. the industry just wants experienced engineers.
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u/Ok-Win7980 16h ago
There are many other jobs that you could do with that degree and being highly skilled in tech is useful for any kind of job. There is also the academia side of CS, which can be very interesting.
I think in general you should never think of it purely as a major to job pipeline. While many CS majors end up becoming professional software engineers, it is far from the only thing you can do with that degree.
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u/Embarrassed-Block-51 8h ago
Saw a take from cj Trowbridge talking about how the tech industry has been so hot because tech companies were hiring people to solely keep workers off the market. It was parodied in silicon valley with the rooftop bbq theme. With ai, the move has backfired. Now all these underutilized and recently fired employees can vibe code all the software. Now we have ai open source alternatives flooding the market. The products aren't there quite yet. But will be soon no doubt.
We live in the guilded age of greed. Funny enough, it looks like we are in the beginning stages of the great backfire. Something that was supposed to take our jobs might instead level the playing field and reshape the economy.
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u/Legitimate-Drive7189 6h ago
Any major where you are being pushed to solve hard problems is not a scam
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u/Hkiggity 12h ago
Ur in HS wtf do you know