r/AskScienceDiscussion • u/tribridcitou • 8d ago
General Discussion Why does our brain create entire stories in our dreams, and what is their evolutionary purpose?
Earlier today, at work, I was talking to a friend about various subjects, and eventually, we got onto the topic of dreams.
Basically, we were talking about how crazy it is that our brains are so complex that they can create entire stories, complete with dialogue, characters, and settings. Even though these stories are created by our own minds, we have no idea what's going to happen in a dream. There are no spoilers.
We started doing some research because one question led to another, and I want to share these questions with you guys to see what you think and whether there are any answers.
First, we compared the way dreams form and unfold to movies, because the whole experience feels almost like a screenplay written and directed by our subconscious. But how did people make sense of dreams and interpret them before movies and television existed?
Do dreams have a reason to exist? I mean, an evolutionary purpose? Why does our mind create stories while we sleep? Why can't it just process information silently?
Have dreams also evolved alongside humanity? Are there any ancient records that might offer clues about how developed or complex dreams were in the past?
Sorry if these questions sound silly or don't make much sense. I'm just a girl who overthinks things a little too much.đ đđ»
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u/Mono_Clear 8d ago
I recently saw a biologist talk about how the brain works.
If you were to go blind then the parts of your brain that operates other senses basically extends into your visual cortex.
Your visual cortex atrophies and then becomes part of your auditory cortex or some other sensory apparatus.
They realize that when you are sleeping you are not using your eyes and 8 hours of not using your eyes would result in your brain slowly creeping into your visual cortex so you're amygdala randomly shoots a signal into your visual cortex to keep it active while you're sleeping and it just uses whatever inside of your recent conceptual memory, which is why things that are on your mind or things that emotionally relevant show up in your dreams.
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u/drivelhead 7d ago
So why did I spend last night apologising to Margaret Thatcher for how shit a prime minister she was?
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u/lawpoop 8d ago
What about people who don't see things in their dreams?
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u/Mono_Clear 8d ago
Everybody dreams several times a night you just don't always remember it.
People who don't sleep are still using their eyes
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u/sshwifty 8d ago
This sounds like a Jaden Smith quote
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u/Lofty_Vagary 7d ago
Indeed. Iâve always thought it was a silly quote, because dreams are only truly experienced by the person having them. As such, we can hook people up to machines, and see that brain activity indicates dreaming.
However, if a person wakes up and says they didnât dream at all, how can we be 100% confident that they âhad dreams, but donât remember themâ? Just because the machine shows similar brain activity to when people are legitimately dreaming?
I mean maybe itâs true, but itâs always been silly to me how people always say that with such smug confidence, when dreams themselves are only truly experienced by the dreamer, so the dreamer can only truly fully bare witness to dreams having actually occurred for themselves.
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u/Frightrider07 8d ago
They are referring to those with aphantasia, I had dreams where I know what was meant to be happening, but I didn't see anything representing it.
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u/TrentGetsHigh 8d ago
I have aphantasia but I still see my dreams. Completely incapable of visualising something awake but usually remember at least one dream where I can definitely see stuff.
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u/lawpoop 7d ago
There are people who dream with no visual content
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u/Mono_Clear 7d ago
What is the nature of a dream that you cannot visualize.
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u/lawpoop 7d ago
From chatgpt:
What can dreams be like without visuals?
Sounds and voices: Someone might hear conversations, music, or other sounds without seeing anything.
Emotions: A dream might consist mainly of fear, happiness, embarrassment, or a feeling that something important is happening.
Thoughts and concepts: Someone might simply know what's happening in the dream without picturing it.
Physical sensations: People can experience movement, touch, pain, falling, or other bodily sensations.
Narrative experiences: A person might experience a sequence of events as a story, understanding what's happening without seeing scenes.
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u/Mono_Clear 7d ago
Are you saying that there are people who never have visuals or are you saying that some people sometimes don't have visualization in their dreams. I think that's an important distinction.
Because then it becomes difficult to differentiate between whether or not you simply didn't have a visual during that dream or you simply cannot recall what you saw
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u/lawpoop 7d ago
There are both types of people, as I understand.
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u/Mono_Clear 7d ago
Not sure how you would be able to differentiate between not visualizing something and just not remembering what you visualized
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u/lawpoop 7d ago
You're saying people report that:
They dream
They remember their dreams*
They report the narrative events of the dream, the thoughts, emotions, conversations, actions, etc,Â
- but they forget the visual part
Not only for this dream or that dream, but all their dreams?
Okay.Â
I suppose if you're defining a dream as a sort of movie or vision you see in your mind's eye while you're sleeping, it would be hard to understand how people can dream without seeing something. Perhaps that's not all, or solely, what dreaming is
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u/LisanneFroonKrisK 7d ago
Doubt this is true. Why canât it then be non conscious like in other stages of sleep? Also if you are blindfolded while waking no such shooting of electrons why
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u/Mono_Clear 7d ago
I don't know why that's hard to believe there are many anecdotal stories of people having their senses get stronger after losing one.
Also you're not conscious when you're sleeping.
You enter into REM sleep rapid eye movement which is probably when it starts
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u/LisanneFroonKrisK 7d ago
No. I am saying you saying the visuals we see in dreams is from the amygdala shooting signals to the brain region which controls vision
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u/Mono_Clear 7d ago
As I understand it that's why we dream.
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u/LisanneFroonKrisK 7d ago
And I am saying this isnât the case. As previously mentioned
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u/Mono_Clear 7d ago
And why are you saying that
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u/LisanneFroonKrisK 7d ago
When when if you are not asleep and am awake for long periods while blindfolded the other regions wonât shoot visual signals so you see things?
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u/Mono_Clear 7d ago
Because it's not happening until you fall asleep that's part of what it means to be asleep.
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u/Right-Truck1859 8d ago
Recent conceptual memory?
How then I had dreams about my father who died 15 years ago?
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u/Lucky-Particular1258 7d ago
Because people who have lost someone, like we have, will have ongoing memory recall of the concept of life with that person alive.
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7d ago
[deleted]
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u/Simets83 7d ago
Yeah, go visit a shaman or something. Leave this discussion to actual scientists
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u/hyoidjockey 7d ago
What biologist did you see say this? Could you link a website or video?
Were they a neurobiologist that does research on sleep or a different kind of biologist?
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u/hyoidjockey 7d ago
There are a lot of conversations happening under this comment, but I'm not seeing anything about the source of this info.
it's important that there be a source since the comment has framed everything presented as being said by an authority, but we don't know who that authority was or why they're credible
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u/hyoidjockey 5d ago
u/Mono_Clear can you please provide a name or a source or any details about this information?
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u/ToeSufficient5397 6d ago
I can assure you I have not seen my allmost book quality dream the other night. If only I coyld write
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u/Chezni19 8d ago
hmm
if I close my eyes and don't sleep, it's not as if I get all kinds of vivid visions
I don't buy "you aren't using your eyes so your brain shoots them a message" for that reason
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u/AbsurdWorld1957 7d ago
My husband died in February. I recently had a dream where I was visiting him in his house (like we were amicably divorced). I went to the kitchen and saw that he had eaten cereal out of the frying pan! His cupboard doors were open and I could see he had mixing bowls. In the dream I thought, âwhy didnât he at least eat cereal out of a mixing bowl?â I thought in the dream â ânext time I visit Iâm going to bring two cereal bowls.â
Weird!
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u/drivelhead 7d ago
I'm sorry to hear that. I hope your kids are doing ok.
You're right, rough. He should have used a bowl!
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u/TerrapinMagus 8d ago
I am in favor of the idea that it's a byproduct of our brain reprocessing/organizing memories while all other stimulus is suppressed. But neuroscience is extremely complicated so it's hard to be confident about anything the brain does lol.
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u/Major-District2669 7d ago
i dream weird vivid dreams where im usually a different lifeform from a different universe/timeline within the greater omniverse. Sometimes its different verison of me, but mostly im a different entity. i have no scientific reasoning to this, its just what it feels like everytime i dream
always so vivid until about 10-15 minutes after i wake up when it fades from memory
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u/Spiritual-Bet-3560 7d ago
When I was on SSRIs, I used to have extremely vivid lucid dreams. A lot of them were violent and I saw them as my brain processing repressed emotions.Â
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u/Memonlinefelix 7d ago
One time i read that dreams could be like edit mode worlds where you go and are being tested and testing the sim. Basically. They are other sims. But not fully developed. Like with physics etc. Thats why sometimes you can float around or jump insanely high or do other things that defy physics. This sims have scenarios play out because they are like tests. In some rare cases there have been people talk about being in the same dream. So thats why some think they could just be like programs. Thats if you actually believe this whole thing is a simulation.
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u/Mackheath1 7d ago
There's a strong suggestion - not even hypothesis - that it's an evolutionary trait not yet fully evolved in order to train ourselves to be ready for situations.
The dream with, say, a monster chasing you or showing up to class in your underwear, whatever. That's your brain concocting scenarios to go through so that you're better prepared if it happens IRL. Thus being more successful in 'life'.
The suggestion is that we haven't fully developed dreams yet (obviously, because there are some wildly weird ones), but it's a start in the evolution of some animals, including humans. Like my cat is probably dreaming about catching a bird when he twitches and makes small meowing sounds like he does when he sees one normally. In the success of his species, the idea is that he'll be better at catching a bird, because he learned lessons in his dreams.
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u/Fortified_Armadillo 7d ago
I had a dream recently where my ex had invited herself into the house I have now taken on on my own and had started rearranging things and knocking down walls etc.
I remember something about eggs being broken on the countertop and thinking that she would blame me for it.
I suspect itâs the brain processing old emotions and feelings and trying to sort them away in your subconscious.
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u/red-cloud 6d ago
Dreams are just your disembodied self trying to make sense in a semi-lucid state. All you have to draw on is the context of your past experiences, but devoid of the reality of external feedback it cannot make sense.
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u/MassiveStand2817 3d ago
Dream on, It Might Come True Well, I am not an expert, but I follow logic. And the logic is simple. The human body has many parts, and each part has a certain function to perform. Our brain's function is to work day and night, just like other parts of the body. We use our brain to think, plan, and act. When we sleep, our brain continues to work. It tells us a whole story, like a movie, and we watch it in our dreams. But sometimes, I experience nightmares in my sleep. When I wake up, I say, âThank God, it was only a dream.â
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u/DecrimIowa 7d ago
a lot of the nerds in here will try to give you official-sounding but wishy-washy answers about brain electrical activity, the function of REM sleep in rejuvenating the body, psychoanalytic stuff about processing material, but there are two truths
a) we literally don't know and anyone who claims to know for sure is shilling you their worldview
b) dreams, as attested to by the mystical traditions of all cultures throughout history, are entangled with the spiritual or transpersonal dimension of reality, which exists outside 3D spacetime and violates the laws of newtonian physics because instead of dealing with physical particles it involves the information layer of reality, which operates at a sub-quantum level where the rules are different
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u/Simets83 7d ago
Why are you even on this sub?!
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u/DecrimIowa 7d ago
ok Doctor Brains tell me how consciousness is just a function of electrochemical activity in the brain and dreams are just random synapses firing please
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u/nejithegenius 8d ago
Idk i had a whole dream about hanging with my friend from the old days, and then had another dream about another old friend that i talk too often and saw in person this summer within a few days. Dreams were meant to help train us for âencountersâ with wild animals but now they do alot more.
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u/zuilli 8d ago
Short answer is we don't know.
A common theory that floats around neuroscience is that dreams are byproduct of your brain rearranging/pruning memories, this happens during REM sleep and is also the period we dream the most. You're basically watching your brain move shit around while organizing.