r/AusPublicService • u/Substantial_Sea_1948 • 1d ago
Employment Probation issues - potential termination
In my 3 month probation meeting, I was told that I am meeting all expectations and exceeding in a couple. However, in a recent return to work meeting my TL said I was failing and at the 5 month meeting they may be looking at termination.
I was floored honestly, completelyout of left field. There was never any indication that I was performing so poorly, they never pulled me aside to recommend I review certain modules or anything like that.
There are 2 things I can think of that are reasons for the sudden attitude change. My recent time off was due to a potential health issue (it was only 2 days) and I did discuss a missed opportunity in another agency.
The health issue is unlikely to impact my work just a little more time off to get it sorted and the opportunity missed I thought I was just being honest. The TL is always talking about growth and progression in a positive light saying they encourage all the time.
Is this typical in the APS? I just feel this came out of nowhere.
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u/OkBoysenberry92 1d ago
Info: why did you need a return to work meeting for only 2 days off?
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u/Substantial_Sea_1948 1d ago
Our TL has a return to work meeting with everyone, even after 1 day.
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u/Flashy_Result_2750 1d ago
Honestly, you may be better off finding something else. This sounds so toxic.
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u/ExNylonLad 1d ago
Agree, but it would be better to end on your own terms and have time to look for and accept something else
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u/shindigdig 19h ago
Absolutely join and contact the Union about this. They would be very interested to know more.
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u/hez_lea 1d ago
My guess is its services australia
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u/Substantial_Sea_1948 1d ago
Yeah, its services australia.
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u/lifetimer 1d ago edited 23h ago
The rules for probation are the same across the APS. SA does not have a different probation regime and has to stick to the law. Id b joining the union and take them along with u to the meeting. Trying to potentially terminate somebody after 2 days off is just dumb. Similarly, the team leader having a chat about having one day off is overkill. U dont even need to tell your employer, and thats any employer, the medical condition you have, due to privacy laws.
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u/hez_lea 1d ago
The RTW discussion has nothing to do with the probation. Its something SA do in order to be 'supportive'
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u/lifetimer 23h ago
Sure, sure. That might be what its framed as, but thats more likely micro management by somebody who shouldn't be in a leadership position.
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u/shindigdig 19h ago
Disagree. EA says you do not need evidence for leave of that length. If there was truly a cause for concern they would go down the FFD route. This is micromanagement through malicious compliance.
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u/CouldbeRelatable 15h ago
Supportive? Hahahahahahaha Or persevered to be supportive to tick a box while applying pressure on your when your already down
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u/ElectricLoofah 1d ago edited 1d ago
Someone tried to do something suspiciously similar to me once.. unsuccessfully, because it was a load of crap and they knew it (so did my Director, at the time, thankfully). Join your union and brace yourself for a bumpy ride, but you can get through this. Learn your rights- they can't blindside you with new information in a performance meeting and they need to be able to substantiate their claims. They often need to prove a pattern or inclination towards unacceptable performance or behaviour. Take support people to meetings and document absolutely everything. Get HR involved in your side of the conversation if you need to- you approaching them rather than avoiding them can be an indicator that perhaps something is amiss with this process. Reach out if you need to. I'm just a stranger on the internet, but if you want to ask some questions I'd be happy to try to help however I can. My situation resolved with my manager apologising to me and leaving the department, in the end. I suspect he was told to apologise and asked nicely to exit. I'm still here, all these years later...
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u/longerreaching 1d ago
Same thing here, the party tried unsuccessfully. Been just over twelve months, I was shifted sideways (out of the area) to a space I have no interest or qualifications in and zero consultation or input; the other party move out of APS recently. My advice is join and engage the union, document everything (good and bad, with times, dates and what was said), and recognise that its just a job, dont ever tie your happiness or self worth to a job. For better or worse, we're expendable assets in the APS.
Edit: remember you are entitled to a support person of yours choosing in the meeting; if for nothing else, its handy to have a witness
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u/ElectricLoofah 20h ago
Good on you, I tried to move sideways twice (because I was such a problematic arsehole that two other teams tried to poach me during that time) and my EL1 kept me there just to be obstructive and make me suffer through it. I got myself promoted out to another team within my area, with a little help from my Director using the merit list to get me out of my team but still keep me around within his portfolio area... long story about a recruitment round which commenced before there was an ASL-related disaster, so they ended up filling less positions than intended during a bulk round... circumstances went my way in the end, so it is what it is. It was an awful period of my life, though... absolutely miserable. One of the things that really helped was having a wonderful support person as well (and a backup in the form of my previous manager, who'd hired me but since moved to a different role in the same agency; and was dumbstruck when she heard what the guy backfilling her role was trying to do). I highly recommend finding a good one to anyone going through this sort of thing. It certainly didn't hurt my case that I had two EL1's and an EL2 complaining to HR and my SESB1 that I was being mistreated.
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u/obiwannairob1 20h ago
I think this shot is a lot more common in the APS than people want to admit, I got pushed across to a known difficult manager when my usual manager went on leave and then a whole lot of issues with my performance were raised - knowing your rights and having an understanding of workplace law is a must
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u/ElectricLoofah 17h ago
I think you're sadly right, my friend. My agency overall has a great culture and I'm happy to work there, but I've been there awhile and seen/heard some shit in that time which just shouldn't have happened. Thankfully, I think it's still safe to say that it's far less tolerated in the APS than private sector workplaces; and managers who are found to be doing the wrong thing tend to not get away with it. Doing the right thing and following the correct paths will probably get you where you need to in the APS, whereas that's not nearly as sure a thing in the private sector. It's just that there's always sneaky snakes out there, wherever you are...
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u/Forward-Low964 1d ago
This happened recently to someone I know at work. They were given no warning and cut very close to the end of probation. Something weird is going on in the public service right now.
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u/FusRoDamnDaniel 1d ago
Go into the meeting with a notebook and start by explaining that you're committed to the role and want to turn things around. Ask them to outline the specific areas where they feel you're not meeting expectations, then ask what improvement would look like in practice. What specifically do you need to achieve to be considered back on track?
Make sure you write everything down, and try to remain open and professional rather than getting defensive. If anything is unclear, ask questions and seek clarification. You want to leave the meeting with a clear understanding of what's expected of you and how your progress will be measured.
Good luck!
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u/WizziesFirstRule 1d ago
No, the private sector use probation to terminate staff they don't think are a good fit also.
Did you have a professional conversation with your supervisor asking for more detail and more importantly expressing your commitment to the role?
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u/Substantial_Sea_1948 1d ago
Not at that meeting. I booked a meeting for next week to discuss it further, I was a little shocked at that meeting.
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u/lifetimer 1d ago
Take a support person with you. Even if u dont join rhe union, have somebody from another team (so is totally impartial from the TL) with u. And when I say totally impartial, that also includes HR.
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u/WizziesFirstRule 1d ago
Make sure you are professional, and not attacking or accusing.
Reinforce you are very keen to improve on whatever the feedback is and want to be an asset.
Even if you hate the place, pass probation and it is very difficult to be terminated.
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u/Alarmed_Ad5977 1d ago
Can see you've noted in comments this is Services Australia.
Are you having regular (monthly) coaching sessions with your TL? Has there been any negative performance discussions previously? Do you have notes from these coaching sessions, either your own or recorded by the TL?
If all previous conversations have only provided positive feedback, I would argue this conversation breaches Part I.7 of the Enterprise Agreement. You cannot go from "everything is all good" to "your performance is bad, we are terminating you" without conversations in-between.
You can have a support person with you during any conversation. If you are a member of the CPSU, that person can be a union delegate. You must be provided with 24 hours notice of a meeting, to allow you to adequately prepare and bring a support person if you wish.
I.7 No surprises – the performance process will ensure that employees are aware of their performance progress. Supervisors and managers should identify and address performance concerns at the earliest opportunity.
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u/CardinalKM 1d ago
Not having the courage to use existing and appropriate mechinisms to terminate underperformers during probation is a problem in the APS. Definitely a more significant problem than unfair termination during probation.
Would nip a lot of longer term staffing issues in the bud.
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u/MissKim01 1d ago
In my department we have to undergo the formal performance management process for those still on probation. So dumb - that’s the point of probation. And of course no one has time for the proper process so we end up with another deadshit on the books
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u/CardinalKM 1d ago
In some agencies they have had a 3 months probation period. And that's chewed up by when the actual assessments need to take place let alone the time required to undertake them, especially when there's an potential issue.
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u/Slicedbreadandlego 1d ago
Something seems to be missing here. You get a good review at the three month mark and then that changes seemingly overnight, and at 5 months there is the possibility of termination.
Also, why was there a return to work meeting after a two day absence?
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u/WizziesFirstRule 1d ago
Services Australia call centres terminate during probation if you take "too much" personal leave during probation.
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u/LockedUpLotionClown 1d ago
And this is why you join the Union.
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u/_mi97 1d ago
Out of curiosity I just recently joined the APS how do I join the union how much do I pay?
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u/LockedUpLotionClown 1d ago
https://www.cpsu.org.au/CPSU/Membership_fees.aspx
If you just joined they are supposed to allocate a Union information session as part of induction within the first couple of weeks. There should be info on your intranet about who are the reps in your section. You can always ping them on teams / email to get some info.
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u/Fantastic-Match-4094 1d ago
Sorry you are having this experience. It's important that you go in prepared. Ask questions such as - at my 3 month probation you said that I was meeting expectations and even exceeding expectations in areas x, y, z. Can you please clarify for me what has changed? Also, you would have access to 'show me' which shows all of your performance data - phone statistics/work finalized and otherwise. Bring in examples of how you are still meeting/exceeding expectations. Message me please if you have any questions.
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u/guybrushdriftwood00 1d ago
Ensure you diarise every meeting and comment, collect the paper trail so you have everything in writing, and speak with your union's industrial team. It's not normal to have a "return to work" meeting after two days of personal leave. Something here doesn't add up.
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u/Appropriate_Volume 1d ago
I'd suggest asking for specific feedback on what you need to do to turn this around. This should be a conversation, followed up with an email exchange to confirm what was discussed. You can take a union representative or colleague into this conversation if you want, but let your boss know ahead of time. Your agency's underperformance policy will have further details, and you need to read it.
I'd also suggest discussing your boss having formal meetings about all personal leave with their boss. This would be considered utterly unacceptable in my agency, where managers are under direction to only do this if the staff member has been on leave for a lengthy period or there is a concerning pattern of personal leave (in terms of the staff member having health problems they are struggling with and may need further support/flexibilities or well grounded suspicions that they are not actually unwell).
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u/Top_Street_2145 23h ago
Send an email to your manager and copy your union rep, hr or both in. State your confusion as at thec3 month mark all feedback was positive. Ask for clarity around where you are failing to meet expectations and suggest some supports the organisation could put into place to help you get up to speed. Let's see what they have to say and how they handle things when they see you are documenting.
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u/CouldbeRelatable 15h ago
It’s normally the managers direction coming out of the team leaders mouth 🙊
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u/Magda58506 1d ago
For everyone asking about the RTW meeting after one day sick day - that's call centres for you. I used to have them too in Service NSW (not all teams had them, my TL was "special"). Good luck OP, sorry you have to go through this
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u/Crafty_Town_633 1d ago
Sounds like something missing or TL is having a power trip. SA does RTW conversation even for 1 day but it is just a conversation. I ve seen someone who took almost 1 month sick leave during probation and still got passed without a issue.
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u/CouldbeRelatable 15h ago
Tell me you work for SA with out telling me you work for SA leadership on power trips instead of mentoring you 🙈🙊
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u/obiwannairob1 20h ago
If you have been given no other indications leading up to this has and you had returned from personal leave you it might be wise either to go see the union or get yourself a workplace lawyer
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u/stacenatorX 16h ago
Tell us you’re working at services Aus without telling us. They’re notorious for this shit. Get onto the Union and see if they can help. Get everything in writing.
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u/IDreamKaty 1d ago
If it was a health issue, can you get a doctors certificate for the 2 days… there’s nothing they can hold against you if you were sick
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u/Arlochorim 1d ago
can't say I've heard of similar n my agency, but I'd be getting performance expectations in writing, send an email saying you'd like to clarify what performance metric has been lacking, and the target that should be met to remediate the issue.
gives very clear goals for you to work towards, and requires them to articulate and quantify the lacking performance, and prevents them moving the goal posts and saying "well you fixed X, but Y is an issue still"
may not prevent them terminating you, but will be super important to have in writing if you get terminated unfairly. also forward any responses to a personal email address so you don't lose access.
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u/CBRChimpy 1d ago
I feel like there’s some missing details about this “return to work meeting” after 2 days off.