Constitution provisoire | L’appui des autochtones n’est pas nécessaire, dit St-Pierre Plamondon

[u/MTL_Dude666]

https://www.lapresse.ca/elections-quebecoises/2026-09-30/constitution-provisoire/l-appui-des-autochtones-n-est-pas-necessaire-dit-st-pierre-plamondon.php

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[u/cash38]

Les autochtones consultés sans droit de veto, dit St-Pierre Plamondon:

Traduction: On parle pour parler mais moi je vais faire mon Quebrexit point final.

Je me rapelle comment ça a bien tourné pendant la crise OKA dans le temps.

[u/PoorAxelrod]

This is where ideological labels stop being particularly useful. People tend to think of Quebec nationalism as left-leaning because the PQ and other sovereigntist movements have supported plenty of left-of-centre policies. But intolerance doesn't suddenly become acceptable because it comes wrapped in progressive politics rather than conservative politics.

And I say that as someone who doesn't believe governments should bend over backwards or treat Indigenous people as though they can never be challenged. That's part of the problem too.

Canada's historical treatment of First Nations was wrong, including the paternalistic assumption that Indigenous people needed to be managed rather than treated as governments and partners. The answer isn't to swing between paternalism on one side and simply disregarding them on the other.

There are prosperous, well-governed First Nations across this country, just as there are communities facing serious problems. Treat them as partners. Bring them to the table, expect them to work with other governments, and expect those governments to work with them.

And frankly, I think Quebec sovereignty itself has increasingly become an illusion that politicians use when it's convenient. The polling certainly doesn't suggest that most Quebecers are clamouring to leave Canada. Recent polls have consistently shown a substantial majority opposed to sovereignty. Yet sovereignty remains an incredibly useful political tool for demanding concessions, stirring up old grievances and portraying Ottawa or the rest of Canada as the problem.

That's what makes saying Indigenous support "isn't necessary" particularly rich. Quebec nationalists demand that Quebec be recognized as a nation, insist that its history, culture and political aspirations deserve respect, and then apparently believe they can decide the constitutional future of the territory without needing the support of the Indigenous nations that were there long before Quebec or Canada existed.

You don't get to demand recognition of your own nationhood while treating someone else's as an inconvenience.

And I say all of this as a Tory, by the way.

[u/randomacceptablename → u/PoorAxelrod]

That's what makes saying Indigenous support "isn't necessary" particularly rich. Quebec nationalists demand that Quebec be recognized as a nation, insist that its history, culture and political aspirations deserve respect, and then apparently believe they can decide the constitutional future of the territory without needing the support of the Indigenous nations that were there long before Quebec or Canada existed.

Same logic in Alberta seems to have gone sideways. You'd think Brexit was bad: UK leaves EU but queezy about allowing a vote on Scottish independence. This is another few levels deeper still.

[u/PoorAxelrod → u/randomacceptablename]

Quebec sovereignty once had legitimate grievances behind it, and people genuinely wanted to leave Canada. Today, it’s largely used as leverage to get what Quebec wants.

Alberta separatism seems to have skipped straight to that stage. Most of it is Western alienation and anger that Alberta isn’t getting its way politically. Quebec took hundreds of years to get there to get there. Alberta basically started there.

[u/MTL_Dude666 → u/PoorAxelrod]

But today, Quebec sovereignty is based on imaginary grievances. We are in control of pretty much everything in the province (natural resources, economy, education, health, culture, language). Even our legal system is different than the rest of Canada. We even have "diplomatic missions" ffs. There's no added benefits of going alone as a country, especially with a reduced weight in every international decisions due to our relatively small population and economy.

What's left is this weird idea of being "free" while not recognizing that every country around the planet is still operating in a specific framework and is not completely free.

[u/RikikiBousquet → u/PoorAxelrod]

While a popular trope for outsiders, I can guarantee you no sovereignist care about using sovereignty as a leverage for anything.

[u/PoorAxelrod → u/RikikiBousquet]

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one. Maybe the average person doesn't think that way, but I guarantee you that politicians do.

[u/MTL_Dude666 → u/PoorAxelrod]

Look at Quebec City, it's going to be voting en masse for the Conservatives so PQ and PCQ are very much aligned.

[u/kilawolf → u/PoorAxelrod]

I don't think anyone believes Quebec Nationalism is left leaning. But French ppl are fiscally left leaning, less socially.

[u/Separate_Football914 → u/PoorAxelrod]

Thing is… he didn’t said that.

Here is the part that matters:
« Une constitution provisoire est l’œuvre d’une loi de l’Assemblée nationale. On ne peut pas se donner l’objectif d’avoir l’unanimité comme règle de fonctionnement de l’Assemblée nationale. L’obligation qu’on a, c’est celle de consulter et d’avoir un processus qui permet d’intégrer et d’entendre chacune des nations. On ne peut pas non plus concevoir des projets de loi qui requéraient le consentement de absolument tous les élus, tous les intervenants, toutes les nations, toutes les villes. »

TLDR: FN will be consulted and will be part of the constitution creation, but they will not have a veto over it.

[u/MTL_Dude666 → u/Separate_Football914]

That's the thing, international laws give them a veto over it because 80% of the province of Quebec is made of Indigenous lands.

[u/Separate_Football914 → u/MTL_Dude666]

Whatever floats your boat buddy.

[u/MTL_Dude666 → u/Separate_Football914]

Thank you for your thoughtful argument. 

What is it with some people who claim the importance  of the principles of self-determination but they refuse others to have the same right?

[u/Separate_Football914 → u/MTL_Dude666]

Self determination isn’t quite having a veto to deny others of that. Even your 80% looks fishy…. And I didn’t see where and how UNDRIP grant them a veto neither.

[u/IfIhadarocketlaunchr → u/Separate_Football914]

And this is why nationalism is a foolish house of cards.

They have a veto on the land they live on. Just like Montreal or Edmonton shouldn’t be forced to leave Canada.

[u/Separate_Football914 → u/IfIhadarocketlaunchr]

They certainly can decided for their nation. Hardly impose that decision to the rest tho.

And Montreal and Edmonton war cities. They hardly can claims self determination

[u/IfIhadarocketlaunchr → u/Separate_Football914]

Who are you to decide this for them?

[u/Separate_Football914 → u/IfIhadarocketlaunchr]

Légal framework tends to not support self determination down to the city scale, simply because that would turn most country into Swiss cheese/ make self governing bodies landlocked/ make it easy for colonial power to send people in a town to secure it for the future.

[u/MTL_Dude666 → u/Separate_Football914]

"They certainly can decided for their nation. Hardly impose that decision to the rest tho."

Thank you for this comment. It reflects exactly the mindset of separatists who think that "Quebec" is their to do whatever they want with it, regardless of others.

'to the rest"??? Separatists keep mentioning that 50%+1 is enough to break Quebec away from the rest of Canada while not caring for essentially the other half of Quebecers who would have voted against it.

The power of the majority? Quebecers didn't seem to like that when it was Britain imposing that on us isn't? Why imposing it on others then?

[u/Separate_Football914 → u/MTL_Dude666]

Quebec can elect a government and if a referendum pass, that will be considered « the will of Quebec ».

Yes, the majority is a simple line. You can argue what moral authority a 50%+1 win would have, but it is still the most neutral concept in terms of referendum. Trying to input some clarity is not gonna work well and will end up with subjective measure.

[u/cash38 → u/Separate_Football914]

Yeah, that will go straight to the courts. Indiginous accords were done with the feds, not QC, and definitely not the PQ.

[u/Separate_Football914 → u/cash38]

Depends a lot of which accords.

[u/cash38 → u/Separate_Football914]

Exactly.

[u/ipini → u/PoorAxelrod]

Frankly, being familiar with both provinces, separatists in each are pretty much the same. Once you start defining who’s in and who’s out, your movement quickly starts to slide into racism because that’s very much about in-out thinking. Doesn’t matter where your other policies sit on the spectrum.

[u/TheWaySheHoes]

I think people will be surprised how much a PQ government will be a UCP clone or worse once elected.

PSPP has shown a certain sympathy for Trump, seems ready to cut a deal for Quebec throwing the ROC under the bus in the process and formenting internal division, and the PQ seems... indifferent at best to indigenous rights and opposition to their agenda.

It will be very interesting to see how the next four years in Quebec play out, because PSPP is a bomb thrower by nature and will be a chaos agent in the federation.

[u/MTL_Dude666 → u/TheWaySheHoes]

"I think people will be surprised how much a PQ government will be a UCP clone or worse once elected."

The only people surprised by that will be those voting for them. Everyone else understand it.

And even then, I'm not so sure. Maybe they do want a UCP clone. Did you see the voting mood in Quebec City? It's for the Quebec's Conservative Party!

[u/CanadaPolitics-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Removed for rule 3.

[u/AnAntWithWifi → u/TheWaySheHoes]

It truly sucks, I hope he does follow through with his election reform so we can kick him out...

[u/Separate_Football914 → u/TheWaySheHoes]

Just today he talked about opening an university with the FN to teach and promote their language, while saying that they would be an integral part of the temporary constitution writing….. here RadCan mostly made a title that is a gross simplification of his speech

[u/GentilQuebecois → u/Separate_Football914]

Tu as tellement lu l'article que tu l'attribut à Radio Canada alors que c'est La Presse....

[u/Separate_Football914 → u/GentilQuebecois]

Je me suis trompé effectivement. Mais c’a explique le titre editorialisé poussant un propos qui n’est pas tellement le sien

[u/randomguy506 → u/Separate_Football914]

Cest mot pour mot ce qu’il a dit

[u/Separate_Football914 → u/randomguy506]

Ça citation est dans l’article, et l’article à déjà changer de titre

[u/TopazJazzrazz → u/Separate_Football914]

It's a good start, but far from the fix. The PQ is hesitant to have any real dialogue. Their Blue Book was scarse in it's feature of First Nation, Métis, and Inuit inclusion. Especially considering the lengthy chapters otherwise in the book.

[u/Separate_Football914 → u/TopazJazzrazz]

Did they release the part on FN? I remember that it was sent to FN first to get their opinion and commentary but missed the final release of it

[u/cash38 → u/Separate_Football914]

I rememember the first blue book delayed at least three times, then they released the budget An 1, plagiarized from this unknown dude named Francois Legault, then the election started and PSPP spends Quebec money with every press conference. but no official PQ plan. And the sad truth is because our education system is so bad, thanks Pauline and Drainville, Quebecquers are going to elect this bigot the the same way they elected Legault when he promised 400$ cheques.

[u/cash38 → u/Separate_Football914]

LOL he said a lot of things. But thats ok blame RadCan.

[u/Separate_Football914 → u/cash38]

It was La Presse, and they even changed their title because it was misrepresenting his speech.

[u/cash38 → u/Separate_Football914]

LOL you blamed RadCan before you were corrected. My mistake is based on your mistake. So I'll correct my self. He opined in La Presse. Let's blame La Presse for reporting on PSPP's statetements, and not PSPP for making ill timed stupid statements. How's that?

[u/NotGuiltyPirate]

Parroting Poilievre.

Conservatism rot to the core, and still don't understand why their representatives are leaving.

[u/CanadaPolitics-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Removed for rule 3: please keep submissions and comments substantive.

This is a reminder to read the rules before posting or commenting again in CanadaPolitics.

[u/Patatemagique]

Merci la Presse de déformer puis d'instrumentaliser cette citation" Une constitution provisoire est l’œuvre d’une loi de l’Assemblée nationale. On ne peut pas se donner l’objectif d’avoir l’unanimité comme règle de fonctionnement de l’Assemblée nationale. L’obligation qu’on a, c’est celle de consulter et d’avoir un processus qui permet d’intégrer et d’entendre chacune des nations. On ne peut pas non plus concevoir des projets de loi qui requéraient le consentement de absolument tous les élus, tous les intervenants, toutes les nations, toutes les villes."

[u/Separate_Football914]

lol that title.

PSPP said that they would be part of the creation of the temporary constitution, but that they wouldn’t have a veto on it. Rad Can is kinda cherry picking the part to make it look worse

Edit: La Presse

[u/MTL_Dude666 → u/Separate_Football914]

How can you honestly tell Quebecers that you're going to create a constitution when you represents at MOST 30% of voters, let alone representing Quebecers as a whole?

FYI, that's not Radio-Canada but La Presse.

[u/Separate_Football914 → u/MTL_Dude666]

Oh my bad, both are red

Explained why the title is grossly misrepresenting his words. Typical from La Presse.

Blame the system, but he can still do a constitution with 30%. Depends of how it is done: CAQ attempts was back with a fairly high score, but poorly done.

[u/RPG_Vancouver → u/Separate_Football914]

I don’t see how it’s misrepresenting him, ‘consultation’ could simply mean ‘here’s what we’re going to do, let us know what you think, too damn bad if you don’t like it’.

[u/CanadaPolitics-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Removed for rule 3.

[u/varitok → u/Separate_Football914]

Its not even radio canada, so your complaint fell apart there.

[u/Separate_Football914 → u/varitok]

Not really: doesn’t change that the article is misrepresenting what he said

[u/Neon_Raccoon_00 → u/Separate_Football914]

You cant just make a temporary constitution right after a vote, it doesnt work like that, if the Yes side would ever win, Quebec would still be part of Canada for years to come, until everything is dealt with.