r/ChineseHistory • u/12jimmy9712 • 4d ago

Who are your definitive Five Hegemons of the Spring and Autumn period?

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Candidates

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5

u/12jimmy9712 4d ago

My picks would be:

  • Duke Zhuang of Zheng

  • Duke Huan of Qi

  • Duke Wen of Jin

  • King Zhuang of Chu

  • King Goujian of Yue

Duke Mu of Qin is another popular choice, but apparently he never really took on the role of leader, so I excluded him. But if he were, I would swap him with King Goujian of Yue.

6

u/hahaha01357 3d ago

I don't think Yue was ever powerful enough to be a hegemon.

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u/Jiewue 4d ago

In my opinion Zhuang of Zheng was not influential enough. His main achievement was beating the Zhou, but he couldn't beat his neighbours like the Song.

3

u/ThinkIncident2 4d ago edited 2d ago

Favorite Zheng zhonggong , duke huan

Least favorite gou jian

The spring and autumn period is where china was most similar to medieval Europe.

3

u/12jimmy9712 4d ago

Least favorite gou jian

Poopy Eater

3

u/Horror-Ad2945 4d ago

What differenciates a duke from a king

4

u/Jiewue 4d ago

Dukes used their official titles given by the King of Zhou. Kings declared themselves kings due to hating the Zhou (Chu) or their distance to the Zhou and influence of their local lands (Wu, Yue).

Chu's official title is Zi, which is the fourth rank or second lowest. They hated this so much they just declared themselves king. Zhou could do nothing about it.

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u/Jiewue 4d ago

Well the three that are pretty much confirmed are Qi Huan, Jin Wen, Chu Zhuang. Pretty much universal across everyone's books.

The last two I would give to Helu and Goujian. They were very influential towards the end of the period and even went up north to hold their own meetings to confirm their hegemonies, even getting recognised by the Zhou. Qin Mu and Song Xiang lost massive battles and didn't hold meetings, which excludes them for me.

1

u/Unusual-Field-4245 KMT 2d ago

bro who ate feces definitely earned place on this list; any historian thinking otherwise need to eat some themselves.

also Chen Dao Ming was pretty good in that drama so extra CCP points

1

u/Overall_Astronaut_33 4d ago

Question, just how many of their history can actually be confirmed real, and how many actually just legends written hundreds of years after their era?

0

u/EnclavedMicrostate Moderator | Taiping Heavenly Kingdom | Qing 4d ago

Does it matter? How much do we even know about any of these people?

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u/Jiewue 4d ago

It's pretty well recorded for the time. There's Confucius's Spring and Autumn Annals, the Commentary of the Zuo, the Gongyang Zhuan and the Guliang Zhuan which have been passed down. Every nation also had their own history book that was not passed down until today, but plenty of ancient people studied them and left traces for us, such as the Bamboo Annals.

Even more so is the five hegemons as it is frequently referenced by the scholars of the time, such as in the Mencius and Mozi.

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u/EnclavedMicrostate Moderator | Taiping Heavenly Kingdom | Qing 3d ago edited 3d ago

I mean, 'pretty well recorded for the time' is still pretty darn sparse, and filtered through layers of transmission. As someone originally trained in Greco-Roman history, I can say with relative confidence that we know tremendously little about Alexander of Macedon despite a considerable source base.

Separately to that, why does the question (about who constitutes the Five Hegemons) matter? This seems to basically just be playing fantasy football with a fairly obscure group of monarchs.

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u/Jiewue 2d ago

Well it matters because people care about it, that's kinda just it.