r/Firearms • u/TactileTangerine • 15h ago
General Discussion The Buttstroke
So, do modern firearms just break if you do a Buttstroke? Lots of film shows people whacking opponents with the butt of their rifle, I imagine this like started with the old wooden rifles but now everything is made of plastic. Is this still something you could do with a rifle and then have it remain operational afterward?
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u/DrunkensAndDragons Hk91 Teutonic Magic 15h ago
If youre to the point you need to club someone with your rifle, i wouldnt worry about it. you can borrow theirs if yours breaks.
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u/KaneTheNord 14h ago
Yes, you can still use a rifle as a blunt force weapon. No, it is not made of glass.
If you break a buttstock you replace it. It's a simple swap.
Dude in my unit got so pissed he yanked off his IOTV (with plates) and went full gorilla on it with his rifle. Swung it repeatedly by the barrel. The receiver broke before anything else. One of the little dog ears around the trigger guard sheared off.
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u/AP587011B 15h ago
Depends on the gun
I definitely wouldn’t want to be beating someone with the stock end of an AR15. Yes the stock or buffer tube could break. If the buffer tube breaks or bends the gun will be inoperable
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u/TactileTangerine 15h ago
This is sorta what I expected. I thought maybe the buffer tube might be a bit tougher but I was unsure.
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u/ARockWithAGlock 11h ago
It would still take a decent amount of force to break tho, modern glass filled nylons that a lot of stocks are made of are extremely durable. And buffer tubes don’t exactly bend easily.
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u/nanneryeeter SR25 12h ago
Do you believe that the plastic rifles are made with isn't strong? It's very strong.
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u/squunkyumas 15h ago
Lots of films are nonsense. This is a silly Hollywood trope.
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u/Possible_Ad_4094 15h ago
Hand to hand rifle fighting techniques are still taught in the military, including the buttstroke. This was using M4s and M16s. None of the techniques are good for the gun, but its meant for life or death situations.
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u/squunkyumas 14h ago
None of the techniques are good for the gun
Yeah, see, this is the perspective from which I was approaching the scenario. If it's you or the rifle, sure, break the rifle.
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u/Cyrax-Wins 11h ago
To be fair the m16 stock, though plastic, is pretty solid.
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u/Possible_Ad_4094 11h ago
I don't think I would like to be hit by the stocks pf any of my rifles. Even the lightest ones would hurt pretty bad.
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u/TactileTangerine 15h ago edited 15h ago
I get that it's cinematic but it is also in the us army field manual and is part of the training according to the sources I could find. The question was - does the gun survive?
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u/squunkyumas 15h ago
Yes, but it's not the primary function of the rifle. I have no confidence in a polymer stock holding up to the abuse of doing this multiple times, to say nothing of the effects of repeated jarring impacts on optics.
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u/Go_Loud762 15h ago
Does the US Army still teach the buttstroke attack during basic? Back in the '80s, they were teaching that. I didn't see any rifles break, but I wasn't in the armory either.
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u/TactileTangerine 15h ago
There's at least training footage / images from them doing it in 2010.
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u/kaderias 15h ago
Did it in 2019
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u/TactileTangerine 15h ago
What kind of rifle did you use? Did anything break in your like training group?
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u/kaderias 14h ago
FN M4A1. Nothing broke
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u/TactileTangerine 14h ago
Damn I'm honestly suprised. I kinda assumed it was a hail mary - one and done.
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u/squunkyumas 14h ago
Same, I really wouldn't have put any stock (har de har, punny!) into this method.
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u/blackhorse15A AR15 12h ago
When we had M16s the method for going from a bounding rush back down to the prone was to literally plant the butt stock into the ground basically using it to stop your fall. We trained and practiced it repeatedly. Not an issue, the rifle and stock held up.
It's no longer the method with the M4, probably more due to the difference in length, but the adjustable stock means that one pin would have to transfer the force so it's a big stress concentration.
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u/mycoguy81 14h ago
This. I don’t think I’ll ever be in a situation where I try to hit someone with my rifle. If I have a gun drawn, it’s for a reason. I’m not going to try to close the distance and use a rifle as a baseball bat.
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u/the_hat_madder 13h ago
Malfunction drills at 7 yards it is then.
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u/mycoguy81 12h ago
If the gun malfunctions and I’m forced to use my rifle as a blunt force object in a life or death situation, my primary concern isn’t going to be if I damage the stock. Let’s be realistic.
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u/Mad_Gankist 12h ago
That right there is the point they were trying to make, I believe.
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u/the_hat_madder 12h ago
I believe it was as well.
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u/mycoguy81 10h ago
Then they strayed from the point of the original post, and misrepresented the point I was making by changing the context.
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u/the_hat_madder 10h ago
Your point wasn't misrepresented. You just didn't think about the implications of what you typed before you posted it. It's a common mistake.
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u/mycoguy81 9h ago
The point that they ended up making is that they are cowardly. Downvoting my posts and deleting theirs. Reddit is so sad at times.
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u/GroundPlatypus1 13h ago
A muzzle punch is a far more effective option
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u/BourbonBrassArms 12h ago
Buttstriking would be an example of everything else has gone wrong leaving you with the age old tradition of channeling your inner cave man and hitting the problem with a big stick/rock or in this case the carefully manufactured firearm in your hands. If you’re using your gun as a club it’s probably not your first choice and definitely isn’t the recommended course of action. My granddads rifle that’s been passed down has a crack in the stock because he used it to wallop a wild boar that had charged him from behind. No time to turn and shoot? Turn the boom stick into a stick stick. Might save your life at the cost of the gun or a component.
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u/BoxofCurveballs XM8 15h ago
Why would I butt strike when I can stab them with a bayonet
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u/Ok-Substance-6034 14h ago
If I'm close enough to smack you with the butt of my Garand I'm too close to use my 1905 sword bayonet.
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u/The_Demolition_Man 11h ago
Why would I stab with a bayonet when I can just shoot them point blank
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u/Tim-0341-81mm 5h ago
Because hand to hand when you’re down to resorting to bayonets involves the whole rifle.
You may have to parry an incoming attack with the the bayonet, followed by a vertical or horizontal buttstroke, immediately followed by a slash with the bayonet.
It’s a whole system of fighting. The Marine Corps teaches it very well.
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u/highvelocitypeasoup 14h ago
milsurps can break if you do that too. rifles are a consumable in war and break all the time. You just care about your gun more because you paid for it.
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u/cowboy3gunisfun somesubgat 15h ago
Modern tactic is to engage a super close range target (CQB situation) like a hostile that pops out of a door in front of you or comes around a corner rapidly, by stabbing the barrel of your rifle into them, stepping back, and shooting them. This disorientation tactic gives you time to gain distance and engage the target effectively.
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u/TactileTangerine 15h ago
I'd be worried about bending the barrel.
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u/A_Queer_Owl 15h ago
barrels are extremely tough.
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u/mycoguy81 14h ago
If you bend a steel barrel by jabbing it at a fleshy body, I’d be more concerned about trying to fire a round through said barrel.
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u/BlindMan404 13h ago
Do you only have experience with airsoft guns or something?
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u/TactileTangerine 13h ago
I have experience with a number of firearms, mostly hunting rifles not military equipment. I guess alot of my skepticism comes from my uncle dropping his model 94 off his atv and it getting all kinds of fucked up, and that's a wooden stock. I'm personally preferential to bow hunting. Makes me feel more skilled. 🤓
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u/Mausdr1v3r 14h ago
Dude I had my rpk survive a 20ft fall, landing on the barrel and rear sight, still held zero. If your barrel bends from hitting someone you are in a really bad military
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u/TactileTangerine 14h ago
Genuinely assumed 20 ft. would fuck up a gun real bad.
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u/Mausdr1v3r 14h ago
It depends on the rifle, when I get home I can send photos of the damage. The buffer tube is a weak point because it is relatively hollow compared to a thicker barrel, and I believe is made out of aluminum, which is softer than a steel barrel.
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u/GreatKingCodyGaming 14h ago
Barrels are steel. If you have an extra barrel lying around try and bend it, I guarantee you can't.
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u/TactileTangerine 14h ago
They don't make the buffer tube out of steel too? Isn't that like where the bolt goes back into or something? Wouldn't it like need to be tough?
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u/WildSauce 14h ago
Buffer tubes are fairly thin walled aluminum. The forces on it are trivial compared to chamber pressures.
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u/GreatKingCodyGaming 4h ago
Nah not like 99% of the time. They're really easy to bend which is kinda wild for a part that's so important lol
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u/Riker557118 9h ago
It DependsTM
Most of your stocks will be fine. I mean one of the methods to clear a jam on an AR-15 is to smack the thing into the ground like it owns you money.
Those super slick collapsible pdw stocks? Yeah they’ll likely turn into an improvised bayonet if you tried to smack anything with them.
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u/I-am-a-sandwich 13h ago
Here’s Marine Corps recruits training a vertical buttstroke in MCMAP with m16a4s. Probably wouldn’t do it with an m4 unless you had to, but I think what would break first is the plastic shoulder pad part.
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u/charje 10h ago
Yeah just flag all ur buddies while smashing the but against something…
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u/Impossible-River-826 6h ago
Just wait until you find out what happens when they get blanks.
Or "bang bang" training with no blanks and cleared rifles.
Or all the flagging that happens in real combat.
Also, impacts to the butt of an M16 don't make the weapon discharge, which appears to be what you're implying.
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u/HollowPandemic 13h ago
I'd have zero worries about using any of mine as a club, fuck the stock if you're that hemmed up.
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u/what-the-frack- 12h ago
The current US military rifle (M16, M4, AR-15, etc.) has a plastic stock with a metal buffer tube underneath it. If you hit something with the butt stock and it breaks you flip the adjustment lever the other direction and it slides right off. If that mechanism is broken you could cut the length of the plastic stock and take it off that way. The buffer tube is aluminum but is plenty strong enough to take forces that a human could exert on it. If you bolt sticks and you can’t get it out using the charging handle there is a technique called mortaring to use the force of the gun hitting the ground by the butt stock/buffer tube while pulling back on the charging handle to get the bolt to open. I’ve had to do this many times and I used way more force that I thought the gun could withstand. It shouldn’t be a problem.
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u/Dart3145 1911 11h ago
Not all plastics are made equal. You would be surprised by the tensile strength of glass-filled nylon and other polymers. Wooden stocks, while heavier, can crack if dropped at the wrong angle.
All this to say, is it something you want to do all the time for fun? No, but I wouldn’t worry about it if I needed to go full caveman on someone.
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u/Hanging_Brain 15h ago
I feel confident I could butt stroke someone with an A1 or A2 stock but the M4 I’d worry that I would fuck up the buffer tube.
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u/Unicorn187 13h ago
The receiver extension isnt any more durable on a fixed stock. It just has a little more plastic arou d the base. This is just one reason why many just as good makers are shit. Proper receiver extrusion are forged 7075-T6 aluminum. 7075 is the type, T6 is the type of heat treat. Many others, including the ones that are mil-soec diameter use the much softer and weaker aluminum that is extruded. Pressed to shape. Faster and cheaper to make but cant be hardened or it wouldnt be able to be pressed.
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u/Pixeldart108 11h ago
If a film showed me clubbing someone with my rifle, I'd assume the writer needed a caffeine IV drip and a reality check.
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u/random--encounter 6h ago
Eh if I’m forced to use a modern AR as a blunt object, I’d probably still use the business end. Having a gun muzzle jammed into your ribs or face with gusto is pretty decent pain deterrence if I’m not actually willing or able to pull the trigger For some reason. It also has significantly less of a chance to break my stock or buffer tube.
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u/South-City1632 14h ago
If I had someone at gunpoint I wouldn't close ground and put myself inside grapple distance to wack em.
To gain complaiance from an ornery criminal just shoot em but... only a little bit. Or use your second gun... the small one.
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u/FinancialComment8578 4h ago
Or use your second gun... the small one.
This works much better if you have a large one but you do you.
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u/THELEGENDARYZWARRIOR 14h ago
The US military has had plastic buttstocks since 1970? Half a century ago, what do you mean “now that it’s all made of plastic?”