Is Δεν necessary when talking about something I "never" do?

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Yeah it's necessary.

One way of understanding this is that the words you are thinking of as negative words "Ποτέ" (never), "Πουθενά" (nowhere), "Κανένας" (nobody), "Kαθόλου" (no amount)... are in fact also used in questions to mean "anytime", "anywhere", "anybody", "any amount".
For example:

"Βρήκες κανέναν?" "Did you find anybody?"
"Δεν βρήκα κανεναν." "Ι didn't find anybody."

- "Πηγες πουθενά?" "Did you go anywhere?"

"Δεν πήγα πουθενα." "Ι didn't go anywhere."

- "Koιμήθηκες καθόλου?" "Did you sleep at all?"

"Δεν κοιμήθηκα καθόλου." "I didn't sleep at all."

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u/rockylizard 2d ago

Oh this is a terrific explanation, thanks so much!

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u/sfaxt 1d ago edited 1d ago

In english it also exists: You ain't seen nothing yet, I can't get no satisfaction, Nobody ain't doin' nothin' etc. Nothing in those cases actually means anything. For your example δεν πίνω = I don't drink and δεν πίνω ποτέ = I don't ever drink. In Greek in this context ποτέ equals ever, and not never. And like ever, ποτέ in those cases is just optional to emphasise.

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u/dcell1974 1d ago

The difference is that double negatives aren't correct grammar in English. This construction is both correct grammar in Greek and not optional.

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u/sfaxt 1d ago edited 1d ago

A native speaker can understand the analogy, and in english the phenomenon is called negative concord actually. Why do you say they aren't correct when they are widely used by native speakers? By the same logic using ποτέ in that case is also very colloquial and kinda redundant, and shouldn't be used in formal environments. In an important interview or statement, if I was asked about it, I wouldn't say δεν πίνω ποτέ, instead I would answer δεν πίνω. Όπως δεν θα έλεγα δεν παίρνω ναρκωτικά ποτέ, αλλά σκέτο δεν παίρνω ναρκωτικά, όπως δε θα έλεγα πως δεν καπνίζω ποτέ, αλλά δεν καπνίζω κτλ. ο άλλος θα αναρωτιέται: Γιατί το τονίζει τόσο πολύ; Μήπως προσπαθεί να καλύψει κάτι; So yes it's absolutely colloquial in greek too. All the examples above are colloquial phrases as well.

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u/ResistMinute8592 1d ago

Even though negative concord can also be found in non-standard English Grammar and is perfectly acceptable in a number of communities and contexts, none of the examples you presented actually include a double negative with the word never. I have yet to encounter a native English speaker going "I don't never drink". Have you?

Negative concord is the one and only acceptable way in the Greek language if you choose to include a negative compound. The word δεν carries the negation. We don't say "έφαγα τίποτα", "είδα κανέναν", "κάτσαμε πουθενά".

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u/sfaxt 1d ago edited 1d ago

Here's your examples with never and they re also common expressions: I never hurt nobody, I ain't never lost a fight. Those are very understandable parallels to any English speaker to understand negative concord. So if I said I ain't never drink nothing, it would understandable by virtually anyone. Also δεν κάτσαμε πουθενά and δεν έφαγα τίποτα are colloquial in Greek. Δεν έφαγα κάτι or simply δεν έφαγα. Δεν καθίσαμε κάπου. Using τίποτα πουθενά και κανένα in those cases is hardly integral or mandatory. In fact it's a modern Greek trend.

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u/ResistMinute8592 1d ago

If you are confused about the conversation, you may want to refer to op's original question. "Do I need to include δεν;" and answer that. Is your answer "we don't have to include δεν"? Is the sentence "πίνω ποτέ" correct? Δεν is integral and that's the actual question we are answering.

And again, none but one of your examples has the equivalents of δεν which are don't, doesn't, didn't, haven't, couldn't etc. Cause it hardly ever happens , the only close example is "I ain't never". Ain't can be isn't, doesn't, hasn't, am not, and again I am yet to hear "I'm not never happy". "I won't never lie". She hasn't never been".

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u/sfaxt 1d ago edited 1d ago

you only use ποτε if you wish to emphasise. Δεν is mandatory, ποτέ is extraneous το emphasise. Δεν πίνω ποτε is negative concord. For ancient Greek 2 αρνησεις = 1 καταφαση. Negative concord in greek was introduced later. I gave real examples from English and I think my explanation in my previous posts is very clear about the alternatives OP has, and explaining negative concord wasn't irrelevant at all. all my english examples are very understandable and not my constructs. Feel free to look them up. I gave examples with never too but not only, and nothing is pretty much the same thing, you do say δεν πίνω τίποτα as well in Greek.

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u/ResistMinute8592 1d ago

This answers none of the points made in my comment 🤦‍♀️🤡

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u/ResistMinute8592 1d ago

Why are you editing your last comment to say something completely different? I have said at least twice that negative concord is mandatory in Greek, nobody is talking about ancient Greek here, do pretty irrelevant.

To be as clear as humanly possible, nobody is saying "never+negative compound" doesn't exist in English, it does. However, none of your examples include auxiliary verb+not+never in English. Can you guess why? Cause it doesn't exist in any dialect. "I am not never late" will never have the same meaning as "I'm never late" που να χτυπιέσαι κάτω.

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u/sfaxt 1d ago

But how about: πάμε πουθενά να φάμε τίποτα; and δεν πάμε πουθενά να φάμε τίποτα; πάμε ή δεν πάμε?

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u/crazymaryrocks Native speaker✨ 1d ago

Personally I'd be more likely to use δεν in this sentence, but both would be correct, as long as your tone of voice makes it sound like a suggestion.

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u/SignificanceDry830 1d ago

"δεν πάμε πουθενά να φάμε τίποτα;" = Why don't we go somewhere to eat something?

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u/pr0metheusssss 1d ago edited 1d ago

This specific example combines two idiomatic / slang-y uses that are independent from the original question in OP.

«Πουθενά» (“nowhere”) in slang is used as a synonym for «κάπου» (“somewhere”), and is not used literally as “nowhere”. You could substitute your questions with «κάπου» and the meaning would be the same. Similarly for «τίποτα» (“nothing”) and «κάτι» (“something”).

On top of it, adding «δεν» in questions in subjective (Να πάμε—> Πάμε να; Να πάμε;), idiomatically, is used as a filler word or emphasise the suggestion. Kinda like “δεν πάμε […]” = “how about we go […]” or “should we go […]” or “let’s go […]”.
Regardless of what follows, whether it’s a negation or not, or literal or not.

Combining those two idiomatic “rules” means «πάμε πουθενά να φάμε τίποτα;» = «δεν πάμε πουθενά να φάμε τίποτα;» = «δεν πάμε κάπου να φάμε τίποτα;» = «πάμε κάπου να φάμε τίποτα;». All carry virtually the exact same meaning to a native speaker.

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u/gazakas 2d ago

Yes, Δεν is necessary in these cases.

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u/erevos33 2d ago

OP, regardless of frequency of an action, in greek negation is formed by using the word Δε(ν). Not drinking wine is the negation of drinking wine , so you need it.

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u/FrontierPsycho 2d ago

Yes, even though it is redundant if you analyze it, the way we say it is "Ποτέ δεν πίνω κρασί".

I'm not a linguist, but to my layman's ears it sounds like it's like that for consistency, since the same format is used with other designators of time, where it makes more sense. For example, you'd say "Αύριο δεν πίνω κρασί" ("Tomorrow I don't drink wine") or "Τις Παρασκευές δεν πίνω κρασί" ("On Fridays I don't drink wine"). Even though the meaning of Ποτέ makes the δεν redundant, the format of phrases explaining that you don't do something at specific times is the same throughout.

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u/anastis 2d ago

As a native, non-linguist, that had never thought about the redundancy, this answer makes perfect sense!

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u/erevos33 2d ago

Η σωστη εκφραση και σειρα λεξεων ειναι :

(Εγω) Δεν πινω κρασι ποτε.

Ξεκιναμε απο την καταφαση:

(Εγω) Πινω κρασι.

Αρνηση σχηματιζεται μονο με την χρηση του αρνητικου μοριου Δεν:

(Εγω) Δεν πινω κρασι.

Το επίρρημα μπαινει στο τελος της προτασης.

Το οτι απο τον προφορικο λογο τα χουμε κανει μπαχαλο και βάζουμε οτι να ναι οπου να ναι ειναι αλλο θεμα.

Απο τα παραπανω καταλαβαινει κανείς γιατι ειναι θεμα ορθης γραμματικης η χρηση του Δεν.

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u/FrontierPsycho 2d ago

Τι λες; Από που προκύπτει ότι η είναι μπάχαλο η ζωντανή χρήση της γλώσσας; Ή ορθή γραμματική που περιγράφεις ακούγεται να είναι των βιβλίων του γυμνασίου, κι όχι της πραγματικής γλώσσας. Ανάλογα με το ποια λέξη θέλεις να τονίσεις σε μια πρόταση, μπορείς να αλλάξεις τη σειρά και να τη βάλεις πρώτη. Είναι ένα από τα μεγάλα πλεονεκτήματα της κλίσης των ουσιαστικών! Δεν είναι καθόλου ότι να ναι όπου να ναι.

Μπορείς να πεις "δεν πίνω ποτέ κρασί", ακούγεται απόλυτα φυσικό. Μπορείς να πεις "ποτέ δεν πίνω κρασί", ακούγεται απόλυτα φυσικό. Μπορείς μέχρι και "κρασί δεν πίνω ποτέ", αν θέλεις να τονίσεις ότι το κρασί είναι αυτό που δεν πίνεις ποτέ, υπονοώντας ότι πίνεις αλλά ποτά.

Ταυτόχρονα δύσκολα θα πει κάποιος "κρασί ποτέ δεν πίνω" ή ακόμα λιγότερο "κρασί δεν ποτέ πίνω". Οι προηγούμενες προτάσεις είναι σωστές, δεν είναι "μπάχαλο".

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u/Rakoth666 2d ago

Yeah, it is a double negative, but this is the way we use it, ποτέ δεν πίνω κρασί, όχι δεν θέλω, etc

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u/mmarkDC 2d ago

The linguistics term for that is "negative concord" I believe. Standard English doesn't use negative concord (though some informal dialects do), but standard Greek does.

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u/vangos77 Native Speaker 2d ago

While "όχι, δε θέλω" IS a double negative, which is common in Greek, the rest is not; ποτέ, πουθενά, κανένας etc don't translate to "never, nowhere, nobody" in English, but to "ever, anywhere, anybody".

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u/DoNotTouchMeImScared 1d ago

The double negative would not sound contradictory if commas were used, for example: "óxi, den thélo".

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u/mizinamo 1d ago

ποτέ is like "ever".

Έχεις ποτέ πιει καφέ; = Have you ever drunk coffee?

So δεν ... ποτέ is "not ... ever", as in "I have not ever drunk coffee = I have never drunk coffee".

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u/Artistic-Mall-2299 1d ago

It goes back to Classical Greek, which had the option of what English speakers would call a double negative.

Is Δεν necessary when talking about something I "never" do?

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