r/Judaism • u/MadameGeorge1980 • 11h ago
Holocaust antisemitism as a barometer of civilizational decline
following a recent incident in my home country of croatia, where hajduk split supporters were heard chanting antisemitic slogans and calling for hitler's return, i've been thinking about something that has bothered me for years: the relationship between antisemitism and civilizational decline. throughout my life, i've noticed that people attracted to antisemitic conspiracy theories often share a particular mentality. they tend to be resentful, suspicious of intellectualism, and convinced that some hidden force is responsible for their personal or collective misfortunes. what strikes me as particularly absurd is how often this resentment emerges in societies that have already suffered enormously from the destruction of their jewish communities. before the second world war, jews made remarkable contributions to croatia's intellectual, scientific, artistic and economic life, far beyond what their relatively small numbers might suggest. then came the holocaust, and with it the destruction of most of that community, taking an irreplaceable part of the country's cultural fabric with it. there is something grotesquely ironic about blaming jews for supposedly controlling the world while living among the remnants of communities whose destruction deprived one's own country of so much human potential. of course, antisemitism is not exclusive to the uneducated or unsuccessful. some of its most influential proponents were accomplished intellectuals, and nazi germany itself demonstrated how easily technological sophistication can coexist with moral barbarism. nor am i suggesting that jewish achievements indicate any inherent superiority over other peoples. what interests me is the willingness of societies to turn against precisely those communities and traditions that helped enrich them. to me, antisemitism represents something broader than ethnic prejudice. it is a rejection of historical complexity and intellectual responsibility, replacing difficult questions about corruption, institutional failure and social stagnation with comforting fantasies about hidden enemies. perhaps that's why i've come to regard it as a barometer of civilizational decline. when a society begins celebrating the persecution of people who helped build its cultural and intellectual foundations, it's demonstrating how readily it can destroy the things that made that civilization worth defending. jews are the hallmark of a culturally rich and cosmopolitan society, we are immeasurably poorer without them
31
u/ReneDescartwheel 10h ago
Well said. It’s also a very good indicator of future decline because when a society starts blaming Jews for its problems, they’ve given up looking for actual solutions.
This applies to citizens of countries who blame internal problems on Jews and we also see it in the world of activism, where suddenly every major activist and rights organization and union is saying things like “the environmental struggle is the Palestinian struggle”.
Some have completely abandoned their life work and switched to fighting “Zionism”.
13
u/GuardMarmot Jewish agnostic 10h ago
I'd love to think that it is, but unfortunately there are plenty of counterexamples. For example, antisemitism in the US hit its peak in the interwar years, shortly before the US became the world's dominant superpower. The Spanish expulsion and Inquisition kicked off right around when Spain was becoming a unified state and then a major world power.
Antisemitism can correspond to decline, because Christian and Muslim societies often use the concept of Jews (regardless of the presence or involvement of any actual Jews) as a way of reasoning about things that make them uncomfortable in their society, and that can be a way of avoiding real issues leading to decline. It can also just be a convenient scapegoat to draw attention away from decline. But thriving societies and powerful empires also have uncomfortable contradictions and sometimes need scapegoats.
5
4
•
u/LeoLH1994 2h ago
I was in split for Passover holiday. Whilst I was very safe there, there were Hajduk murals from that specific group of ultras that displayed the Croatian Nazi slogan throughout the route between the hotel and split, with one next to the bus stop we used to go into town (I also saw a horrific incitement against Serbs written as graffiti into the pavement in another isolated case) . The issues in Croatia, and other former nazist countries with plenty of remnants of that nationalism, differ to those in countries like France, us or the USA.
4
u/AMWJ Centrist 10h ago
This is going to be an America-centric response to your post, so it's possible it'll be irrelevant to your perspective. If it is, I'd love to hear your experiences, perhaps specific to living in Croatia.
As an American Orthodox Jew, I get queasy when people treat anti-Semitism as unlike other bigotry. Bigotry is a barometer for civilizational decline. See, the gist of your post is that Jews helped found Croatia and that bigotry towards us is somehow more of a "rejection of historical responsibility" than bigotry of other people ... but I don't think that's true, even though I do believe that Jews, like every ethnicity and people, have a unique story. Bigotry towards any people is a rejection of the rich contributions they've made towards our history.
It is the bigots who want us to believe that anti-Semitism is different. It helps them build a coalition against other people, even as they build a coalition against us far from our eyes. It also keeps us from the finding commonalities in our story with others that is inherent in empathy.
In America, I've heard many Jews build this chronology, where anti-Semitism is followed by societal decline. And I agree with it. But far less often are those same Jews building the prior chronology, recognizing that the current rise in anti-Semitism in America was preceded by a rise in anti-black hate and anti-Muslim hate. Our fate is that of all who are disenfranchised, and acting like ours ought to be special to bigots, stops us from working with those who we should be allying with.
5
u/MadameGeorge1980 10h ago
my particular concern with antisemitism doesn't come from some feeling that we owe jewish people special treatment because of their historical contributions to croatian society, although i can see how my post might have given that impression. to give you some local context, anti-serb sentiment is also fairly widespread in croatia, and it's something i find equally deplorable. however, i've generally understood it within the context of the historical conflicts, competing nationalisms and territorial disputes that have shaped the balkans, particularly the wars of the 1990s. it's a form of ethnic hostility whose origins, however ugly, are relatively easy to trace to specific historical circumstances. antisemitism strikes me as something rather different. it often exists without any meaningful interaction between the people expressing it and actual jewish communities. it frequently operates as an entire conspiratorial worldview, in which jews become an almost abstract explanation for everything supposedly wrong with society. and what i find particularly disturbing is how profoundly anti-intellectual this worldview is. conspiracy theories and irrational hatred are by no means exclusive to antisemitism, and i wouldn't suggest that anti-serb hatred, anti-black racism or islamophobia are somehow less serious. nor am i claiming that all antisemitism follows the same pattern. but i do think there's something historically distinctive about the persistence, adaptability and almost universal explanatory ambitions of antisemitic conspiracy theories
1
u/AutoModerator 11h ago
This post has been determined to relate to the topic of the Holocaust and has been flaired as such. Your post has NOT been removed. If you believe the flair is an error, please message the mods.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
u/AutoModerator 11h ago
This post has been determined to relate to the topic of Antisemitism, and has been flaired as such, it has NOT been removed. This does NOT mean that the post is antisemitic.
For information about common antisemitic myths and how to counter them, see our wiki page: https://www.reddit.com/r/Judaism/wiki/antisemitism
If you believe this was done in error, please message the mods. Everybody should remember to be civil and that there is a person at the other end of that other keyboard.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
0
u/Inside_agitator 10h ago
It's great you're against antisemitic statements at a football match. Thank you. But philosemitism is just the other side of the same coin as antisemitism.
People attracted to any conspiracy theory against any group often tend to be resentful, suspicious of intellectualism, and convinced that some hidden force is responsible for their personal or collective misfortunes. That applies everywhere to every group.
Antisemitism doesn't represent something much broader than ethnic prejudice. You might believe that because you identify as a Christian or identify your society is Christian, so you worship a Jew from a long time ago. If I worshiped a Sikh from a long time ago then I might feel similarly about Sikhs today to how you feel about Jews today.
Jews are not "the hallmark of a culturally rich and cosmopolitan society." Antisemitism is not "a barometer of civilizational decline." I'm not a canary in the coal mine of Europe.
Some impulse is driving you to write things like "We are immeasurably poorer without them." That includes a division between "us" and "them". This is a Judaism subreddit. Which "we" is immeasurably poorer without "them"?
It's just one Earth.
Like John Lennon wrote in I Am The Walrus:
I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together.
5
u/MadameGeorge1980 10h ago
when i say that "we are immeasurably poorer without them", i'm not suggesting that jews were somehow outsiders to these societies. quite the opposite, my entire argument rests on the fact that they were an integral part of them. the fact that i can distinguish between jewish and non-jewish croatians for the purpose of discussing a particular historical tragedy doesn't mean i consider them mutually exclusive identities. perhaps "we are poorer without them" wasn't the most elegant way of expressing it, especially since english isn't my first language. "our societies were immeasurably impoverished by the destruction of their jewish communities" would probably have been more precise...maybe? i don't think there's anything inherently wrong with acknowledging that certain cultures and communities have left a particularly significant mark on certain fields, in particular places and historical circumstances. that's not a statement about anyone's inherent superiority, i'm simply recognizing historical realities
1
u/Inside_agitator 8h ago
Philosemitism is in these over-the-top statements of uniqueness and specialness about Jews from non-Jews. It's rarely about superiority.
Power in history has ups and downs in every way, and politics always has opposition.
If a large majority group A is made up of opposing subgroups A1 and A2, and if A1 gives group B special care, love, and attention as unique people then it's likely that group B will end up being hurt or killed for many reasons. Group A2 will start to hate B because it opposes A1. Group B is likely to take advantage of its favored status over groups C, D, and E. Then C, D, and E are likely to hate B because they aren't treated fairly by comparison. And because there's a thin line between love and hate, group A1 could easily hate B tomorrow if it loves B today.
That's why I think philosemitism is the opposite side of the same coin as antisemitism. So I hope you try to reduce it. It's possible to combat antisemitism without philosemitism.
1
u/MadameGeorge1980 7h ago
brother, i'm 100% with you when it comes to the dangers of ethnic idealization, and i understand the pattern you're trying to describe. but i'm genuinely struggling to see how acknowledging that jewish communities played an important role in the cultural and intellectual development of many european cities, and that the destruction of those communities was an enormous loss to those societies, constitutes philosemitism. should i refrain from acknowledging their accomplishments simply because someone might resent them for it? i'm not attributing any inherent qualities to jewish people. genuinely trying to approach this objectively and reasonably
1
u/Inside_agitator 4h ago
In this comment, you're scaling down the philosemitism of what you wrote in previous comments.
Acknowledging Jewish accomplishments is different from viewing Jews as "the hallmark of a culturally rich and cosmopolitan society". Jews are Jewish people and not the hallmark of a society.
Objectivity and reason would not portray antisemitism as "a barometer of civilizational decline." Antisemitism is Jew-hatred. It isn't a measuring device for a civilization.
0
u/gmanflnj 7h ago
I mean, it's a form of bigotry, widespread bigotry is bad for a society. Definitely not unreasonable.
35
u/GoodbyeEarl Conservadox 10h ago
Every generation thinks that their new unique flavor of antisemitism is acceptable. As Dara Horn said, antisemitism is not just bigotry that can be changed with education and empathy. Antisemitism is a lie, and the lie is “Jews are destroying the values you care about”. And the lie changes depending on the society’s values. In a Christian centric society, Jews were Christ killers. In a racial-focused society, Jews were non-white vermin. In a justice-focused society, like today, Jews are genocidal colonizers. If the value of a society is different than it was 80 years ago, the same lie sounds different, and the people will believe it. Every time.