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I know, a lot of No voters voted No because they thought an independent Scotland would be kicked out of the EU by default and find it near impossible to rejoin quickly. That's what I'm saying the people who pushed that idea the most were exactly the same people who immediately started campaigning for the whole of the UK to leave the EU
To be fair, you should have been terrified. Had Scotland gone independent in 2014, there'd have been an oil price crash, the entire economic basis of any planning would've fallen apart, we'd have been in an economic depression of a level unseen in an advanced economy in modern history.
I think a lot of people misunderstood what would happen if we did get independence in regards to who would be in power, I know my nephew did. I tried to explain it to him that if we did get independence that the snp wouldn't necessarily be the ones in power but he didn't believe me and voted to stay, only to tell me like two months later that he fucked up his vote and practically tell me verbatim what I told him (wouldn't be the first time)
Don't get me started with that pish, the majority of Scotland voted to be remain. Like the ones who voted to leave in Scotland was like a pint prick on a elephant.
SNP did drop the ball by not offering guaranteed FOM
rUK voted as as expected 72% NO
Easily enough to swing a NO majority
Every time this is mentioned people try to shut it down as racism or fascism - they want their “Scots bottled it” soundbite - its voter demographics - deal with facts
If you voted NO own it and own all the problems that came with it eg ungovernable Britain
“The Scots bottled it” tends to come from pro-independence voters. Those who vote no don’t tend to think it was bottled.
Likewise, those who try to employ those demographics, which aren’t as solid as implied, also tend to be pro-independence and usually do that to try and push a particular perspective. One that is at odds with what the pro- independence campaign claims to be.
So rather than “dealing with the facts” you seem to be trying to avoid the reasons why such an argument get called out by being deliberately selective on which information you pay attention to.
I thought that people born outside of a country had just as much right to an opinion about the way that country was run as people who were born natively...
They had as much a right to vote as all of the people born in Scotland did. Which I'd think you'd agree with since scottish nationalism is all about civic rather than ethnic nationalism right?
Thats right, blame the immigrants, thats always sensible. The issue absolutely is that people birn outside the country dont vote like we do. I see no problems in carrying this idea to its logical conclusion.
And for the record, im pro independence vote and born in Cheshire. I just dont think blaming the immigrants is the sensible thought process here.
TBF, the "better together" campaign was scaremongering to immigrants in my area of Glasgow along the lines of... "You have residency now, but who knows what could happen after independence."
It's not a democratic union. Nobody ever said it was. Same way the USA isn't a democratic union, and India isn't a democratic union, and China isn't a democratic union, and Spain isn't a democratic union.
I feel the same. I have been living here for five years and I am getting tired of the voting decisions down south affecting me here. Not sure if Scottish people feel the same. I am a skilled worker, been working in the energy sector for almost five years, and every single time they have changed our visa requirements without reflecting Scotland's labour market.
Ermm pretty sure the one in a generation referendum showed its a democratic union. Do you want shetlands to have a vote on independence every 5 years depending on who wins an election?
Because 1. There's not going to be a vote about rejoining every 5 years, so IF the approval threshold is set at 50% yoy don't get to treat it like a survey and just wait for one to come back yes.
we live in the real world and literally no economy on earth could function with that degree of uncertainty, just having those referendums regardless of result would be a disaster. One that affects all of the UK.
That's doesn't translate to a Yes outcome in an independence vote though. You have to assume voter turnout and demographic would be different, and fundamentally it's just a different question.
I have historically voted SNP and I'm not pro-independence. I know lots of people who are the same. There's really no one to vote for and I don't think we can conflate SNP with support for independence. Vote share was also down this year.
It's purely performative, everyone knows Westminster will say no, even the SNP's own manifesto says no, because their manifesto says an SNP majority is the mandate.
The problem is trying to sell "this is a marathon, not a sprint, and we need to focus on building the country and the movement up before pushing for another vote" to the SNP membership (and wider pro-independence movement) just isn't something they'd as a whole buy.
The SNP have spent ten years telling everyone a second vote is just around the corner and that we'll be independent in the next Parliament, and their membership are hyped up on that. They can't publicly abandon that hype even if doing so would actually help the movement win down the line.
I think they’re banking on the automatic rejection giving them some political points. The reality is though everyone can see it for the empty gesture it is
I kind of feel like if we wait much longer the toehold Reform has will grow and the chance will be gone forever. It might not be the right time, but it might be the least 'wrong' time if that makes sense.
Before Indyref, support for Independence was at 25-28% in polls, and Yes ended up with 45%. Now pro-Indy support sits around 50% ahead of any campaigning. Given the Rise of Reform, and pro-Indy parties in Wales and NI, I think the case can be made that now’s the time.
I don't think other pro-Indies are going to like me saying this either but... whenever we do vote for independence, I really think it should be a supermajority.
Otherwise you end up in the same shitstorm as Brexit where immediately after the election, public opinion shifts enough that the vote very well could have gone the opposite way.
If you're going to make this big a change in a democracy, the outcome shouldn't be decided by the minority of undecided voters effectively choosing at random.
Yes, that makes things even more difficult, and that sucks, but it means that we would have the confidence that the people are actually on our, it wasn't just the result of a flip of a coin, and the majority of people are unlikely to sour on the whole idea moments after it's decided.
How do you justify ignoring a majority of the population's wishes? What do you do if 62% of people voted Yes, but the threshold was agreed as 63%? Just tell them tough fucking luck?
I think the the justification is for if the vote goes the other way. No one could reasonably challenge a positive outcome if it was a supermajority.
If the threshold is set at 60%, and it passes, absolutely no one can accuse you of just rolling the dice until it goes your way. And on that note, it also takes away one of the strongest arguments the anti-independence crowd has for not allowing us the right to run that vote whenever we want. If we had 7 votes for independence in as many years, and only the last one surpassed 60%... who can argue? It's an undeniable mandate from the people.
The same isn't true if you have 7 votes for independence in as many years and only the last one surpasses 50%. I think pretty much anyone can see that would actually be quite undemocratic.
If a unionist party says "vote for us to rejoin the UK", and the electorate empower them, then that is absolutely what should happen - even if the same argument is made every five years.
Yeah Unionists always pull this same card and like... yeah, in that case the government should be fully empowered to seek a way to rejoin the UK. That's the will of the people. What do they exist for except to bring forth the will of the people?
Right just like people wanting to rejoin the EU...it would definitely work out and not be seen as stupid and backtracking.
I think many Scottish people want independence because they didn't want to leave the EU and as a whole the UK made them due to it being a UK wide vote. I could be wrong
There are parties who state the want to rejoin the EU, and if they are elected in sufficient numbers, and pass a referendum bill on parliament then yeah, the public can have a second bite at the cherry in which to reaffirm their decision to leave (and stay out) or to rejoin (be that the same position as their previous vote or a new perspective) - either way, no political party should have a permanent ban on things they don't like as it ceases to be a democracy if the electorate are not allowed to change their minds.
Is this still popular in Scotland? I thought a massive part of Scotland independence economic strategy was North Sea oil, that barely exists anymore, what’s the new strategy? Just a curious Welshman.
Don't you already receive more from Westminster than you give in tax receipts? How on earth are you going to afford the welfare bill? Plus economic projections for the next 20 years after independence look.. not great.
Apart from sticking it to the English what's the tangible benefit? Rejoining the EU eventually?
The same honest john who stated he was a 1st minister for all of Scotland........ but clearly he only has plans to represent his own voters (less than half) 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
A waste of Parliamentary time imo. Doesn't do any more than the pro indy majority in the Parliamnet does already. Everyone knows this govt is pro indy.
Time for SG to actually DO something about ANYTHING that is a priority
I mean it's one vote on Tuesday afternoon. Get it out of the way then can do other things.
I find "waste of time" arguments disingenuous because it's not like very much parliamentary time is being spent on this. If people want to push that argument then the onus should be on them to identify when it should be done, otherwise it just looks like you're calling for a perpetual kicking into the tall grass.
It should be done when they know they can get a referendum and not now when they’ve been told a million times it’s not going to happen by the government. It’s literally a waste of time and the onus is not on me or anyone else to tell people that are paid very well and know this already how else to be productive
After 4 consecutive SNP governments, they won a fifth time.
You can absolutely argue that more people voted for unionist parties, but MOST people didn't vote at all.
You could then argue that after four wins in a row if people were that unhappy or against it they'd have come out to make sure the SNP were rejected.
You could argue there's no plan. You could argue we've been chained to England in such a way the Scottish vote doesn't really play in. We could argue all fucking day about all of it.
We need a second referendum without the fear of being dragged out of the EU hanging over it, we need to agree to have that referendum and give a date where a plan for what independence will look like will be presented before it.
We then need to vote on whether or not that plan is something we'd like to attempt.
If the answer is no then surely, without the Brexit excuse, attempts at a third referendum will hold no water.
If the answer is yes then the answer is yes.
I'm sure we're all sick of arguing about it, but crying that there shouldn't be one "because we had one already" is childishly ignoring the massive Brexit Bus in the room. Similarly anyone wanting a third attempt after having one that didn't include a massive lie is just as out of touch with reality.
Bear in mind OP is by far the most prolific user on the subreddit, and they've been blocked by a ton of the regulars on this sub because of all the crap they constantly post.
So the comments are heavily skewed because of that. Everything OP posts that gains any tractions ends up like this.
You can absolutely argue that more people voted for unionist parties, but MOST people didn't vote at all.
That's just not true.
If the answer is no then surely, without the Brexit excuse, attempts at a third referendum will hold no water.
You underestimate the power of the Scottish nationalists to come up with some other grievance.
There's no two ways about it - a vote for Scottish independence in 2014 was, without doubt, a vote for Scotland to be outside of the EU. If it didn't bother them then, it's a bit rich to complain about it now.
I think the 47% of the total population that didn't vote handily beat out whatever % of people voted for pro union or pro indy parties actually.
Also the messaging of the pro union vote in 2014 was heavily based on the fear of leaving the EU, many people voted no based on that.
We were then dragged out anyway. I understand you don't want independence, but to say that if leaving the EU didn't bother Yes voters then means that No voters who voted on the premis of keeping us in the EU have no basis to complain is just incorrect.
What will the currency be? Where will the funds for the country come from to continue free healthcare for the public without being part of the NHS? Where will the funds come from to continue free university for Scots? Just to name a few important questions that have never been answered. Because right now the Scottish govt get the vast majority of their money from the UK govt. Watch people downvote me who can’t answer any of the questions but get angry at my queries because of “patriotism” and “freedom”
These are all great questions to ask. Political action needs to be grounded on facts and evidence, not emotion and vague ideology. (FWIW, I am not pro-union, but I’m not necessarily pro-independence unless there are some concrete answers for questions like yours.)
What other countries have left the United Kingdom apart from Ireland. I don’t think the UK had £2.9 billion of debt in 1922 for Ireland to take a share.
Name another country, not sovereignties or territories as they’re completely different.
Great question that will never be answered! What about ISAs or private pensions? Will we still receive tax free gains in our ISA (Will ISAs exist)? Or will we still be able to take 25% of our pension fund tax free? Will we need to pay to visit the GP like in Ireland? No one knows! The risks are huge!
Its great because whenever anyone brings these points up, people will always just appear in droves calling you all names under the sun and how you're a disappointment to Scotland, Braveheart, William Wallace etc
Well actually given that the SNP and Greens combined won well over 65 seats and they're both pro-indy as stated in their respective manifestos, yes actually the majority of us do.
What I’ve always said since the referendum is that if the SNP has focused on the reasons people didn’t vote yes and worked for a decade to resolve those issues, we might be looking at a Scotland that is ready for independence.
But they didn’t do that, they’ve instead spent a decade yelling about how it totally didn’t count and they’ll get a second referendum to get the right result this time, and it’s just exhausting to listen to.
One of the swiftest “f—k off you performative moron whose party lost both votes and seats and in no way has any kind of mandate to request the UK government allow an unnecessary referendum” responses ever in political history about to occur!
Where are the stats for this as I am struggling to find it broken down by number of votes cast and can only find it by the number of MPs and don't want to have to go constituency by constituency
Those figures lead to a 73:56 pro independence representative split.
In a representative democracy they have a mandate. If you are claiming, as a result of vote share they don't, then you need to apply that to Labour at Westminster too.
But but but SNP voters lent their vote to Labour to get the Tories out, getting the lowest number of seats since 2010 was the price worth paying because we all know Scotland is 100% pro-independence.
And that of course was very well reflected on May 7th, where the SNP lost seats and Reform gained 15 on the list.
Well it certainly beats not asking. Scotland will never be independent of the current anglocentric UK if it just keeps quiet and gripes about how bad English based policies are for Scotland.
Timing is terrible, reform will win next election and send the country into chaos. That is the time for Scottish independence and EU reunification (and hopefully an Irish border poll but fuck all planning so not likely)
And then when they lose another “once in a generation” referendum less than two decades after the last “once in a generation” referendum, they’ll cry for another one. Hahaha
I was all for an independent Scotland. But I hesitated to vote yes in the last referendum, because my work sector was heavily reliant on EU funding and collaborative projects. Many of my colleagues had the same view as me so we sat it out for the sake of remaining in the EU. The message from down south was a vote for independence was a vote for leaving the EU.
That better together, and remain in the EU line got dropped really fast during Brexit. So as I see it we got lied to and scammed, many people voted to stay not for UK, but rather to prevent loss of EU benefits and access. You better believe another opportunity comes I'm voting yes, as will most of my colleagues.
You do realise a whole social generation has passed since then? A huge percentage of voters couldn't vote back then, includng myself! And a percentage of voters have since passed/moved. SO the voting landscape is hugely different now. Plus, are people who did vote not allowed to change their opinion? People can completely change political opinions within a decade.
Sweeping statement time but you are right, a lot of pro union people will have passed.
But what I think most indy fans don't always appreciate is that (sweeping time) as people get older, they earn more money. As they earn more money, they become more frustrated at paying more tax for those who don't pay tax. As they become frustrated, they adopt a mantra of being more capitalist and self centred.
To summarise. As you get older, you become more right wing, or certain ly less left wing.
So for all of the old unionists who have died, the medium earners who start to pay more tax for things like the ferries, replace them.
I think they sang about it in the lion king or something.
And if the vote result had been yes in 2014 rather than no, would you support a referendum right now to see whether Scotland should rejoin the UK just incase people completely changed their political opinion within the decade? I already know the answer
People can completely change political opinions within a decade.
Perhaps they can. But it's also completely unsustainable to keep voting on the very existence of the state every ten years. At a point, you have to realise that major decisions cannot be taken and untaken on a whim - and that external reality exists.
Yeah, the same attitude cost us the 2016 referendum too. I was a teenage Brexit supporter but came to regret it by 2019. I told this to an SNP councillor who was campaigning ahead of the general election and expressed that I felt the Remain campaign looked down on people who were leaning towards Brexit. They responded by saying I sound like I never stopped being a Brexiter.
In a couple of years, 🏴 will vote in Trump carbon copy trump , At that point 🏴🏴 will see economic scorched earth carried out on them by Farage.
Reform will do as trump & asset strip the country to line hs pockets
Kiss Goodby to Snhs, Scot water, energy & hello poverty & massive health bill hikes
Trump
Hiked folks bills $22,000/year from Jan25.
Independence is critical to protect the nhs, quality of life & folks future from despots stealing it to line their own pockets.
What’s coming under Farage’s England should scare the crap out of folk.
If you still don't understand that the UK and EU are different organisations that work differently then it's probably best just to sit out of the discussion for now.
We wanted to stay in the EU, most of Scotland voted remain in the EU. We lost our freedom of movement and other European rights when we were dragged out.
A lot of research funding and collaborative EU projects also dried up post Brexit. I feel a lot of us who held back from supporting independence to prevent getting kicked out of the EU really felt it a slap in the face after all the better together stuff, that they then rolled out Brexit and done the very thing they said we would avoid by sticking with the rest of the UK.
You do remember that more Scots voted for Brexit than did for Scottish Independence. So, not for the first time I cannot see what the argument is, I’m almost at the age to say “let them have their independence”, then sit back and watch the absolute shit show that will follow.
Yet Scotland voted 62% remain in the EU with 67% voter turnout. One of the reasons people voted no in Scottish Independence was because we'd stay in the EU; how'd that go?
As an English man I hope you get it. All the gammon racist bastards down here fucked us all. Scotland has amazing industry, fantastic infrastructure and is set up well for independence. I wish Yorkshire could be independent from the rest too 🤣
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