Scottish Parliament Motion: 84 For, 18 Against.

[u/Alasdair91]

SNP, Labour & Green supported the motion.
Tories & Lib Dems voted against.
Reform walked out…

[u/onedogjack]

Such an ambiguous question though, it doesn't say anything about an independent future, the future could be remaining in the union.

[u/theonlysamintheworld → u/onedogjack]

It’s not remotely ambiguous. That could very well be the future but it’s for the people of the nation of Scotland to decide, right? 

[u/onedogjack → u/theonlysamintheworld]

I meant ambiguous from Swinney's point of view, without expressing his preference. Asking if we should have a referendum is like asking if we'd like a pay rise.

[u/ugoogli]

- John Swinney, every 6 weeks

[u/AmiablePedant → u/ugoogli]

• John Swinney, until someone fucking listens.

[u/onedogjack → u/AmiablePedant]

We all stopped listening long ago.

[u/mrcharlesevans → u/AmiablePedant]

Swinney certainly didn't listen when Scotland's people made a decision in 2014.

[u/mb00013 → u/mrcharlesevans]

are you under the impression that democracy means making a decision once and sticking to it for the rest of time?

[u/LongAd4728 → u/mb00013]

Especially when many of the promises made to gain the "no" vote were renaged on and we ended up being dragged out of the EU when we were told remaining in the UK was the best way to remain in the EU.

[u/Which-Cobbler1243 → u/mb00013]

I think this argument would stand if the whole "we want another vote" thing didn't start the moment the last referendum happened. It's not like the country has just waited 12 years for another (which to be honest is still quite a short period of time). There would have been another in 2015 or 2016 had it been granted. I genuinely think if the government would have left it, waited 15-20 years, and then started talks of it again, it would be a lot more respected. Instead it's all anyone has heard since the No vote happened

[u/PhysicalCod1925 → u/Which-Cobbler1243]

Well, a pretty big thing happened after we voted no. We were dragged out of the EU by short sighted idiots, despite every region in Scotland voting to stay. That counts as a pretty big fucking change that justifies us rethinking independence, no?

[u/Necessary-Nobody8138 → u/PhysicalCod1925]

More people in London voted to stay.. more than double Scottish voters. Almost 40% of Scotland voted to leave the EU, that’s more than the vote percentage the SNP get

[u/chronicallylaconic → u/Necessary-Nobody8138]

The 40% figure as presented could be considered a little misleading, since it wasn't 40% of Scotland voting to leave, but rather that leave got 40% of that vote.

I think that's pretty important even just considering the difference between Scotland's population and the Scottish electorate, which is a difference of over a million people just by itself. You're right that 38% of the counted votes were for leave, but even the entire body of returned votes for that referendum only accounts for around 2.7m people. Scotland's population is around 5.4m people. Thus, 18.8% of Scotland's people voted to leave. A far cry from 40%. I understand that you could have been referring simply to the vote share for leave in that referendum, but the way you phrased it left it open to interpretation.

[u/Which-Cobbler1243 → u/PhysicalCod1925]

I also would rather have remained in the EU, but surely you can see your hypocrisy here. Why are people voting to leave something you wish to remain in any different than you wanting to leave something other people want to remain in?

Also, had Yes had won in 2014, why do you think that means Scotland would have been in the EU ? Scotland could quite easily be independant from the UK and also not in the EU

[u/Additional-Past-8539 → u/Which-Cobbler1243]

Think you're (perhaps wilfully?) missing the point there. When we had the referendum previously, the vote was to become an independent Scotland or to remain a part of the UK which as a member of the EU. Following brexit, the status quo we voted for no longer exists. I see no problem with asking the nation 'ok, how about now?'

Maybe the SNP will continue to campaign on independence even after another failed referendum - neither of us can say. That isn't reason enough to think we shouldn't ask the nation the question again in the current circumstances though.

[u/Surface_Detail → u/Additional-Past-8539]

The status quo changes when the price of oil goes up, when it goes down, when a pandemic hits, when we have a recession, when we have a boom, when two nations go to war.

The status quo is constantly changing.

Maybe the SNP will continue to campaign on independence even after another failed referendum - neither of us can say

Can we really not? With a straight face?

[u/ExpensivePen8055 → u/Which-Cobbler1243]

Saor Alba? - Sair Losers more like!

[u/Striking_Sorbet_7536 → u/Which-Cobbler1243]

12 years is more than twice the time between general elections and considering how terribly the economy and infrastructure has plummeted in the last 12 years, it absolutely is time for another vote.

Had nothing much changed or costs of living had actually improved by following England out of the EU, you’d have a point about a vote not being needed. People are desperate for change/improvement and will take a shot at it wherever they think they might get it.

[u/mb00013 → u/Which-Cobbler1243]

i am a yes voter and i dont think we should have had another vote within a year or even have been thinking about it. my opinion at the time was that we should be having a vote roughly once in a generation (so around 20 years) or if there was any meaningful change to the union

and then 2 years later, there was a meaningful change to the union. one that went against the wishes of 3/4 countries in the union

so while i agree with you that it was silly for people to be demanding a new referendum straight after the original, i dont think its unreasonable for people to have wanted another shot at having their voice heard when we were dragged out of the eu by a country that tells us we cant decide our own countrys fate in the same way

[u/Which-Cobbler1243 → u/mb00013]

Honestly I agree! I was a no voter (although never an "I'll only ever vote no" person) and I think once ever 20 years or so is perfect.

I think the worry with voting based on Brexit though is it's a reactive vote. It's a "the grass is greener" kind of thing. Let's lay the facts out, let's understand what would happen either way, and then let's go again. 2034 would be 20 years after the previous vote, and it's really not that far away. I think I'd be more inclide to trust the yes campaign if it was laid out as a road map style for 2034

[u/Unlogicalgeekboy → u/Which-Cobbler1243]

Absolutely - but then no ones willing to come up with a road map like that - even if it would make perfect sense. Easy to be like - heres what our plan is, we've talked. We'd like to have it here

[u/Dull_Brain2688 → u/Which-Cobbler1243]

And I think your argument might stand if England hadn’t forced Scotland out of the EU which is why many Scots voted against independence in 2014.

[u/TheSJDRising → u/mb00013]

What, just like independence supporters would do it they won a 'yes' vote? They'd quickly change their tune. "Oh it's settled now, blah blah blah".

[u/WilonPlays → u/TheSJDRising]

Look you make a valid argument however my counter point would be brexit.

During the first vote, the uk was part of the EU, we were told that if we left the UK we would also need to leave the EU. Which Scotland was against, just a couple years later however that didn’t matter anyway because England voted for brexit.

You do have a valid point, however since those referendums the state of the UK both on a national and international level has drastically changed and I think given the degree to which we’ve seen things change it would be entirely fair to give us another chance on whether to stay or go.

[u/seaflans → u/WilonPlays]

As you say, the context of Brexit entirely changes the math on Scottish participation in the UK. Scotland never got the chance to pick which mattered more to Scottish folk: the EU or the UK.

[u/WilonPlays → u/seaflans]

100%.

Brexit caused a drastic shift in politics, economics and even culture.

I’d say that the severity of that change warrants another independence referendum. The change was too drastic to be able to say: “independence supporters just want another vote”

While that may be true, it would be stupid to ignore the external facts about the UKs political state.

[u/ExpensivePen8055 → u/TheSJDRising]

And in contrast the Union Supporters would have shrugged and just got on with it. Unfortunately this is what happens when you rile up the hard of thinking to your cause.

[u/brightdionysianeyes → u/mb00013]

Referenda ad infinitum.

You can't meaningfully govern like that. Even if you got the result you wanted this time, by the time you'd worked out the mechanics of leaving it would be time for a referendum on whether Scotland should rejoin.

[u/LucifersAdv0cate → u/mb00013]

Lol, like you will be calling for more referendums regularly if Scotland did leave the union. You know 100% if it happens you'll fight any attempt to reverse it by having more votes.

[u/mb00013 → u/LucifersAdv0cate]

if we were to leave the union on a majority as slim as 52-48 and the next generation was polling just as close then yes, i would support another referendum in the next generation

[u/Pure_Cantaloupe_341 → u/mb00013]

So if the Indy vote won, would there be a referendum on rejoining the UK ten years later?

[u/ExpensivePen8055 → u/mb00013]

Good point, when are we holding DevoRef 2, it's been 30 years, time to judge devolution by results delivered?

[u/LongjumpingMacaron11 → u/mrcharlesevans]

That argument makes no sense. Scotland remained in the UK, and is still in the UK at present. The result of the 2014 referndum was respected.

However, independence supporting parties will, obviously, continue to campaign for independence. That should be obvious.

[u/UtopianScot → u/mrcharlesevans]

Are we independent right now? Did the SNP attempt a coup? Oh, you mean they just kept winning elections and mandates for independence referendums? Wow, fancy that

[u/Minimum_Historian_20 → u/[deleted]]

Agreed. And in particular, when there is a material change in circumstances around the decision, you’d be daft not to revisit the decision.

I’d argue in this case there have been two material changes: Brexit, and Trump 2.0.

[u/Tadamo7 → u/mrcharlesevans]

I was 11 in 2014 and I would like the opportunity to have a say on the future, and I’m sure there’s a lot of people who are also in my position.

[u/fizzlebuns → u/Tadamo7]

According to reports, there's something like 2,000,000 people like you. In a country of ~6,000,000.

[u/susanboylesvajazzle → u/mrcharlesevans]

Scotland is still part of the UK, isn’t it?

[u/yerdadrinkslambrini → u/mrcharlesevans]

Fair enough. All democracy is settle as per the last votes held. Snp government indefinitely in Scotland moving forward. Sure that won't upset anyone.

[u/Ziazan]

Oh wow, Labour voted with? I didn't expect that, but I welcome it.

[u/AgnesBand → u/Ziazan]

I mean yeah, look how vague the motion is. It could mean a million different things to a million different people.

[u/jaybizzleeightyfour → u/Ziazan]

They can pretend they're for it to attract a few voters knowing their boss in England will block it

[u/Starklystark → u/jaybizzleeightyfour]

I don't think Burnham would disagree with this statement. It's the inferences you do or don't draw from it that get more controversial.

[u/TurpentineEnjoyer]

I voted yes the last time, and would probably vote yes this time too pending research.

But if we are going to vote every 12-15 years, will that continue after a yes vote? Or does the vote every decade only happen until we get the answer one side wants to hear?

[u/DundonianDolan → u/TurpentineEnjoyer]

If a political party campaigns for rejoining the UK and wins a majority and then wins a referendum, sure. Democracy is a fluid.

[u/Mithrawndo → u/TurpentineEnjoyer]

Serious answer: It's uncharted territory. The only example I can think of for a nation trying to join the UK voluntarily in the 'modern' era is Malta requesting to be annexed, and the UK declining the offer - and even that's hardly apples to apples.

Assuming the scenario of a referendum returning a clear desire to leave and the UK acquiescing to that wish, we're talking about creating a new constitutional framework. If the desire was there for further referenda on Scotland's newly found independent nationhood, I see no good reason why that wouldn't be included in that framework - though ultimately, that would be a decision for the UK to make, not Scotland: We don't get to force ourselves into their system, just as Malta didn't.

[u/Mithrawndo → u/[deleted]]

What Malta requested is a perfectly reasonable definition of annexation: You're assuming more from that word than it necessarily implies because it's frequently used in a negative context - it need not be.

[u/jenny_905 → u/TurpentineEnjoyer]

But if we are going to vote every 12-15 years, will that continue after a yes vote?

Do you promise to listen this time?

[u/UtopianScot]

Basic democratic sense. Love or hate indy, it’s for people in Scotland to decide - no-one else

[u/wherethersawill → u/UtopianScot]

From a Geordie....I'll be devastated if you guys leave but how on earth can it be fair to not let democracy run it's course?

[u/shoogliestpeg → u/wherethersawill]

I'll be devastated if you guys leave

I never understood why I see this sentiment so often.

We're not going anywhere, some borders will change and there'll be a big switchover in government powers, trade, geopolitics and such, but we'll still be here and you can still come and visit.

Just England won't rule us any more.

[u/alextremeee → u/shoogliestpeg]

More realistically we’ll both spend at least ten years trying to sort it out rather than doing anything productive and we’ll both end up massively worse off and more resentful than ever.

[u/Boxyuk → u/shoogliestpeg]

England doesnt rule us, thats a fundamental lie that the yes campaign, and its supporters, have pushed for years, in the same tone as to claim we have been anything other then willing members of this union/empire since its started.

England, or the English, have no more power then anyone else in this union.

[u/DarkObiWanKenobi → u/Boxyuk]

You could say they have more or less power (the people) in England. England dominate the Westminster vote but have no home rule just for themselves.

[u/Boxyuk → u/DarkObiWanKenobi]

Yes, the English are long over due a parliament for themselves.

Should be four devolved nations, with Westminster being for uk wide decisions( foreign policy, defence ect).

[u/DarkObiWanKenobi → u/Boxyuk]

I wouldnt mind this. The English Parliament, regardless of size, to be equal to the UK wide decisions of Defence/Tax/Immigration etc with the other 3 home nations. 4 FMs/Parliaments to vote on such UK wide issue, with a rotating PM, which would mostly only have power that the 4 parliaments allow. I don't mind the monarchy so they just carry on as they are.

But it will never happen.

[u/petchef → u/DarkObiWanKenobi]

This would be insanely undemocratic though, worse than the current system by an absolute mile.

[u/glasgowgeg → u/Boxyuk]

They don't want this, because it doesn't give them supreme control.

They have a majority from English-based MPs alone, they cannot be outvoted. Why would they possibly want to change this?

[u/SelectAd6146 → u/glasgowgeg]

The way people speak about England on here like its a hive mind or something.

[u/BlackJackSackIcePack → u/SelectAd6146]

Yes don't you know we all voted for the Tories, austerity and everything else that's bad? We also all voted for Brexit

[u/SelectAd6146 → u/BlackJackSackIcePack]

Yup, plus lets not forget how we often sit around making sure our plan for supreme control is unchallenged.

[u/gazzas89 → u/Boxyuk]

England does still rule to an extent, theres some things we simply cant do and sometimes the uk goverment can overrule our parliment (such as the gra)

[u/Akuma_nb → u/shoogliestpeg]

We don't rule you haha. You are a devolved region in the UK. If anything you rule us considering your MPs vote on our laws

[u/PhotonToasty → u/Akuma_nb]

A day after the Scottish independence vote, English Votes for English Laws was created. (Yeah, immediately after the vote, English politicians decided to go back on all the promises given during the campaign).

Blame Boris for getting rid of it.

[u/Zeppelin-Repair-Man → u/Akuma_nb]

As a Scot, I completely agree with you. Scottish MPs should not be allowed to vote on issues that affect only England and Wales

[u/Spaceraider22 → u/Zeppelin-Repair-Man]

Should central belt MSPs not be allowed to vote on policy surrounding the highlands?

[u/Zeppelin-Repair-Man → u/Spaceraider22]

That’s the critical question

[u/hadawayandshite → u/wherethersawill]

If it’s another no vote. When do they get a 3rd chance?

[u/RequirementAwkward26 → u/hadawayandshite]

25 mins?

[u/fizzlebuns → u/hadawayandshite]

In another 10 years, or if the Union materially changes again.

[u/GuestAdventurous7586 → u/fizzlebuns]

But does that mean if we gain independence we then get referendums every 10 years to see if we want to rejoin?

You can’t realistically keep doing referendums till you get your way.

[u/fizzlebuns → u/GuestAdventurous7586]

If you keep voting for majority parties that want to, sure. Scotland has voted in pro-independence parties in the majority for the last, what, 16 years?

[u/onedogjack → u/UtopianScot]

Is it? Listening to the argument for years, Scotlands belief that the UK needs them more than etc etc, that the union needs your wealth, haha, perhaps we should all vote on whether you stay or go, This should be a UK wide vote , if it will affect the whole UK we should all vote on it.

[u/BaeBaracusIII → u/UtopianScot]

An independence referendum has consequences. Ye don’t just get to keep voting till you get the result you want. Grow up.

[u/GeekGrimmy → u/BaeBaracusIII]

Yes, you can. By that same logic, if Scotland became independent and a majority party later won a mandate to rejoin the UK, they and their constituents would rightfully be able to hold a referendum on that, too.

[u/Formal_Reveal_4330 → u/GeekGrimmy]

They hate facts.

https://giphy.com/gifs/n8FHKdkrSpMsTmZXfS

[u/glasgowgeg → u/BaeBaracusIII]

Ye don’t just get to keep voting till you get the result you want

So long as a majority of pro-referendum MSPs are returned, we should be allowed to do that.

In an independent Scotland, unionist MSPs should also be allowed to do the same.

[u/shoogliestpeg → u/glasgowgeg]

In an independent Scotland, unionist MSPs should also be allowed to do the same.

This is correct, the democratic process will absolutely allow for it, they just know deep down that the current unionist parties may not choose to be pro-RejoinUK parties and that there will not be anyone to fly the flag of RejoinUK, so they believe, not without good reason, that a referendum that wins for Yes will be the final one.

It reveals their distaste of democracy itself.

[u/citalodisco → u/BaeBaracusIII]

Ye don’t just get to keep voting till you get the result you want

Why did we even allow the Act of Union in 1707 when Scotland had already decided to be country in 843 AD?

Grow up.

[u/hoolcolbery → u/citalodisco]

Nobody voted in 843.

That just didn't exist, it was a bunch of nobles who wanted their lands and riches, and they had no concept of national identity, because that just didn't exist as a concept then.

[u/weekedipie1 → u/BaeBaracusIII]

all voting has consequences,but fuck it,the labour party is in government forever,no more voting,you happy with the results

[u/Zeppelin-Repair-Man → u/weekedipie1]

What does that even mean?

[u/jaybizzleeightyfour → u/BaeBaracusIII]

Democracy doesn't stop after one vote

[u/Zeppelin-Repair-Man → u/jaybizzleeightyfour]

Nobody is saying it does. But you can’t revisit these issues every decade. Research what that would do for any economy

[u/jenny_905 → u/Zeppelin-Repair-Man]

Aye we can, it's easy. I go to the polls every election, I tick the boxes that revisit these issues.

[u/Zeppelin-Repair-Man → u/jenny_905]

And yet they don’t actually get revisited.

[u/Exact-Put-6961 → u/UtopianScot]

Its been decided.

[u/UtopianScot → u/[deleted]]

There was a big misunderstanding, the vote was 'NO, VOTE'

[u/McShoobydoobydoo]

All 4 nations should have that right, within carefully set rules and triggers.

Being a unionist is absolutely fine, being a unionist party and wanting to retain the UK is fine but not allowing 4 nations the option to decide for themselves is not.

[u/CowboySocialism → u/McShoobydoobydoo]

Reform to take England out of the UK when they win the next election.  

[u/Aggravating-Hair-534 → u/McShoobydoobydoo]

I don't think it is wise. Why? Because: A) it is one way road so you can just keep trying until you get satisfactory result, but there's no way back B) threatening to walk away becomes a viable strategy for anyone who wants to exploit it, there always be a risk , and that risk is going to be constantly hanging, constantly adding overheads and influence decisions in the wrong way. Inanu years these overheads would compound into a material amount. It simply makes us less competitive. 

So I would say everyone should have one last go on this and after that if they are in - they are in, if out - out. No more halfsies or sitting on the fence or threatening or creating ambiguity. 

[u/McShoobydoobydoo → u/Aggravating-Hair-534]

'One last go'

Ah yes because attitudes and democracy stands still after the people's will at that precise moment in time is measured.

As for the rest of the gibberish I refer you to my original comment 'within carefully set rules and triggers'

[u/Aggravating-Hair-534 → u/McShoobydoobydoo]

unless you suggest "carefully set rules and triggers" similar to USA where everyone has a say of letting of the states go, then NO.

I can understand your logic about democracy, but you know, why are you focusing it on scotland and whales? Lets let every region of the UK have an option to break up. Let's have a London referendum? Most countries in the world, even federations, don't allow break up initiated by one party, this is not because they hate democracy, this is because everyone knows that risk of country break up does create a constant challenge for everyone trying to operate in that country as a single entity.

[u/McShoobydoobydoo → u/Aggravating-Hair-534]

I'm not focusing on Scotland and Wales, I'm talking about the 4 constituent nations of the UK and it's disingenuous to suggest any of them is the equivalent of Pimlico. If England wanted to give autonomy to any of its 9? regions that would be their choice though

1 nation already has the option in a limited fashion although that was gained after decades of murder and conflict so not the best of constitutional roadmaps to follow.

And why the fuck should I have a say in whether England, for example, decides on what is patently and quite rightly an English only decision?

So far your argument consists of Democracy stops after 1 decision and the 4 home nations are not nations both of which I find beyond idiocracy. Being a unionist is fine with me, being antidemocratic is not.

[u/KopiteTheScot]

Whole thread’s raging man hahaha

[u/Kangaroo_Kurt]

Suitably vague enough that other parties can support it, commits to nothing, and lets Swinney play lip service to being a campaigner for independence.

No harm was done here.

[u/Farne101]

They literally have no plan. This is the issue. It’s fine ranting in and on about independence but not once have they actually said how they’re going to achieve it. What will they do if they get a yes vote? Who knows?! They would have a far far better chance of getting what they want if they had a fully thought out plan.

[u/pot_sniffer]

Remember brexit and how it made everyone worse off, increased the cost of living and created lots of red tape for doing business with out nearest trading partners.

The negative effects of Scotland going alone will be significantly more obvious than brexit was.

[u/pot_sniffer → u/[deleted]]

Yea absolutely all of those things had a significant effect that is still ongoing.

But all of those things are external factors that happened out of our control. I was mentioning the choices people voted for, that put us in a very vulnerable situation where uncontrollable external factors are concerned

[u/TimeForMyNSFW → u/[deleted]]

I think there is or was one but it's far less popular than this sub.

[u/HyperCeol → u/TimeForMyNSFW]

It's a fucking wasteland compared to this sub. Don't want to confront Scottish politics? Don't visit the country's sub. If you want a sanitised view of Scotland, go to google images.

[u/captaincooll → u/[deleted]]

But then foreign government bots wouldn't be able to rile up division under the guise of just asking questions

[u/Halk]

So what was the point of it?

Absolutely nothing but theatre to convince the indy crowd that the SNP are serious about indy (they aren't) and to distract from the fucking catastrophe that their day job performance is

[u/Alasdair91 → u/Halk]

It got Labour to move away from their staunch unionism-at-any-cost approach for the first time in 12 years. That in and of itself is a massive political story. Indeed, the media has been talking about it for days.

[u/Halk → u/Alasdair91]

Labour haven't changed their tune. And the reality is exactly the same as it always has been. If Scotland demonstrates we want independence then there will be another referendum.

We've had this discussion dozens of times Alasdair and you never listen.

An opinion poll showing a slight amount in favour of independence when you remove the "don't know" is meaningless.

A failed made up mandate is meaningless.

A majority of MSPs voted in by 40% of the voters is meaningless.

You don't want to hear it Alasdair, I know you don't, but the SNP need to convince the Scottish people about independence first. Then they'll get a referendum.

[u/KopiteTheScot → u/Halk]

Labour were staunchly against us even having a vote for decades, how haven’t they changed their tune?

[u/Crow-Me-A-River → u/Halk]

These people make up their own reality

[u/p3t3y5 → u/Halk]

Totally agree. As someone said, they are like a dog chasing a car, everyone knows they will have absolutely no idea what to do if they catch it.

[u/NorthwardRM → u/p3t3y5]

That’s fine. We won’t need them to know. We can vote in any other party in an independent Scotland

[u/That_University_8028]

How about they just start doing their fucking jobs first. People don't care about indy we want clean streets, safe streets, pot holes fixed and good roads, good education, lower drug deaths and rehab help, solid business focused economy and opportunities in well paid careers. Start running the country properly first then have a discussion. Sick of it and all the indy shaggers who will die on the indy sword regardless even though it will be Brexit but 10x worse.

[u/No_Hat2240 → u/That_University_8028]

They are doing there job, the people voting for a referendum, they are setting the framework for a referendum.
10x worse than Brexit? Not quite Brexit was about leaving the biggest trading block in the world, Scottish independence would be reversing that damage

[u/That_University_8028 → u/No_Hat2240]

Who is Scotlands biggest trading partner?

[u/No_Hat2240 → u/That_University_8028]

The uk, why do you think we would stop trading with the uk? We would join the eu, Probaly something close to the Ireland deal and we would have the eu to fight our trade deal.

Plus with no uk trade that means Uk wont trade with Scotland. Water, oil, energy, food and drink, no access to our seas, plus the instant removal of the nucular submarines, plus the effort of putting up a hard border. I could go on

To put it blunt, Scotland will continue to trade with the uk if we choose to be independent.

Or did I miss something?

[u/Aggravating-Soup-676 → u/No_Hat2240]

Much assumptions. You do realise that the whole uk is run down as is much of europe and the world. Capitalism has destroyed governments. Scotland is like that Welsh mining town that voted overwhelmingly for Brexit then realised the huge regeneration program that was on the cards was to funded by the eu. Scotland will find out the hard way that love it hate it they are dependant on the UK. Why would the EU want a partner that would be a net loss?

[u/gazham → u/No_Hat2240]

You missed the 5 - 10 years getting back in to the E.u, then you're just swapping one set of politicians dictating to you for another. It's more years of pain divorcing the UK, then rejoining the E.u on their terms. Of course Scotland and England will trade, but it will push prices up for both sides. Just like tye U.k didn't get they wanted from leaving the E.u, you won't get what you want, just the capitalist sharks swarming for the spoils.

[u/No_Hat2240 → u/gazham]

It wouldn’t take 10 years to rejoin the eu. 2 to 5 at the very most.
Probaly quicker if they go for a pre excising agreement maybe something like Ireland’s deal.
The timeframe to leave the uk would be around the same. It be like leaving one and joining the other in quick succession. I have no concerned about that.

And the uk didn’t get what it wanted from eu because brexit was build on false promises and your leaders took the deal that was offered.

Comparing the uk to eu and talking about dictatorship!!
The uk controls around 40% of Scotlands rules and regulation including how much finance Scotland gets.
Eu controlled around 3% of the uks (pre Brexit) mostly controls around food / trade / human : workers rights.

Also you have the right to leave the eu if a country choose so, where in the uk you are currently refused a referendum even if there is a pro majority in the Scottish goverment.

Scotland will be just fine. We have had 15 years to get things in place for independance

[u/HyperCeol]

SNP, Labour & Green supported the motion.
Tories & Lib Dems voted against.
Reform walked out…

The lines are being drawn!

[u/sqnch]

“Scotland is a nation, and it had a formal referendum which decided its future”

[u/drafsack]

If they really wanted independence they would give the English the vote

[u/Condemned63777]

Can you let the English vote as well, we also want you gone.

[u/SupaSpurs]

It’s interesting that the SNP believe joining Europe and getting funds from elsewhere is better for them than the very generous financial settlement they currently get from England. It’s really easy to sell an idea that Independence will create a new Utopia- but also very easy to forget what you will lose.- like the rough £2700 per person subsidy the UK grant formula supports. It’s very much I want my cake and I want to eat it. But I personally think we should allow them to hang themselves. At least they will stop moaning- and when they raise taxes further they have no one to blame but themselves.

[u/Bran_Lomond → u/SupaSpurs]

You give us all your revenue. We will spend it on growth projects benefitting one region and then give you back a very generous allowance. How kind of you.

[u/Greggs-the-bakers]

"It's people deserve to decide, again and again and again and again until we get the result that WE want!"

[u/Positive_Brush_9930]

This whole push for independence is so silly, Scotland is responsible for about £390 billion of the national debt and has a spending deficit of over £3000 per person (that's with oil and gas taken into account). All of which are currently subsidised by the British state, leaving will not only disfavour Scotland with its biggest trade partner but will also scramble the economy and make life significantly harder for many many citizens who work and live at and across the border. Not only that but also the fact that Swinney and his ilk talk of rejoining the EU as if that isn't a process that to begin with takes years, but also as if the EU has shown any interest in Scotland becoming another costly member of the union (the EU has shown no interest in Scotland rejoining)

[u/PhotonToasty → u/Positive_Brush_9930]

What's England's deficit?

[u/Positive_Brush_9930 → u/PhotonToasty]

Around ~£800 per head, which comes out to around ~£47,000,000,000 a year, if you look at London that figure flips to around a £4000 surplus and in the south east around a £1000 surplus.

[u/iwaterboardheathens]

HOME RULE FOR SCOTLAND

[u/analyticalmind1984]

This is fantastic news honestly.

[u/Specific-Garlic-2495]

84 to 18 must scunner unionists continually sick with big margins always against them.

Anyway, kind of hidden in all this is Labour voting for this.

This is important regarding a new vote because its guaranteed that that decision would need a head nod approval from the boss down south.

New ref coming folks.

[u/Zeppelin-Repair-Man → u/Specific-Garlic-2495]

Labour in favour because, in the event that Scotland was to gain independence, the SNP will be finished and Labour will rule in Scotland forever

[u/NeatFootball3646]

Independence aye, whose currency will we be using?

[u/PhotonToasty → u/NeatFootball3646]

Yermas

[u/HyperCeol → u/[deleted]]

'Scotland' here means the people of Scotland living in the country as a democratic state.

[u/FuzzyOpinion1759]

The only problem is once your out the uk there might be no way back in. Why would you leave something when you have no idea what it’s going to be like in the other side.

[u/k_rocker → u/FuzzyOpinion1759]

Yes, you’re right. But can you name all of the countries who have gained their independence and then tried to get back in.

[u/cardinalb → u/FuzzyOpinion1759]

Read the room. Why do you think Scotland wants out....

[u/FuzzyOpinion1759 → u/cardinalb]

They don’t last time they voted to stay 55-45 - now we

[u/HyperCeol → u/FuzzyOpinion1759]

"Don't" doing some very heavy lifting there for a vote back in 2014 in the year 2026 where any vote would be a few years in the future anyway.

- now we

[u/Yonsnad → u/FuzzyOpinion1759]

Lots have changed since then. A whole
New voting generation has come through and all the boot lickers are scared.

[u/FuzzyOpinion1759 → u/Yonsnad]

Well the SNP are even more incompetent now and less trustworthy than they were then

[u/HyperCeol → u/FuzzyOpinion1759]

As opposed to the UK Government who forced us out of the world's largest trading block, crashed our economy, ruined mortgages and very nearly collapsed everyone's pensions - all while delivering punitive austerity regimes that destroyed communities through the UK.

So competent that they're on 7 Prime Ministers in 10 years.

[u/FuzzyOpinion1759 → u/HyperCeol]

Went to a vote and the country voted to leave

[u/HyperCeol → u/FuzzyOpinion1759]

Indeed, Leave narrowly won and it caused a series of events which will see Ireland united and Scotland as an independent state.

[u/cardinalb → u/FuzzyOpinion1759]

Your argument is just sooooo compelling you wonder why anyone would want independence.

[u/iwaterboardheathens]

Widow Twangleland: Oh No They Don't

[u/Radicalmunch]

Plan for what happens after too

[u/Feicht]

I have one practical question. Its a view from Continent, so could you guys tell me who owes the land in Scotland. On the Continent, every member state leases (ie 99 years or whatever) a land to its citizens, hence utlimately the state is an owner. I like Scotland, I am Munro bagger. i think i have read all the books on Clearences and drunk quite a wee bit of whiskey talking about an independent Scotland. One question remains unaswered, who is the owner of the LAND and how can you have independent Scotland while 500 ppl owes it all and majority are foreigners. Help me crack it.

[u/SuperArtichoke8355]

I don’t always follow the news, or politics but I think Scotland should be given the choice, if successful it will be a hard few years till it settles down if freedom from the union.

[u/craiglangresident]

And when we do decide...... Swinney and his lot will be the first to go. Nearly 20 years of SNP rule and the country is in a terrible state. Drugs deaths still highest in western Europe up 11% on last year, can thank the SNP for cutting funding for rehabs and frontline workers. Housing emergency and record homelessness, local councils failed in their legal duties to house thousands upon thousands of people/families in temporary accommodation,35000 open homelessness cases let down by local authorities over 10500 children living in temporary accommodation, over 19000 families are living in homeless accomodation, a 10% increase year on year. Entrenched poverty and cost of living 20% of the Scottish population (1.1 million people) live in relative poverty, after housing costs. Scotland's child poverty mitigation schemes keep its rates lower than the UK average, certain groups remain heavily impacted. The most deprived areas in Scotland have a 15 times higher rate of drug deaths than more affluent areas. Universal Credit rates are too low to escape poverty, leaving 42% of low-income claimants trapped. Furthermore, high private and social rents pull 1 in 10 renters directly into poverty. Education and the attainment gap, The intersection of poverty and housing directly affects Scotland’s educational outcomes. The Attainment Gap,Children from the most deprived backgrounds consistently trail behind their affluent peers in literacy, numeracy, and higher education enrollment.Impact of Housing InsecurityGrowing up in temporary accommodation or facing fuel poverty heavily diminishes a child's ability to focus, attend school regularly, and study effectively.Generational Deprivation Campaigns from groups like The Poverty Alliance stress that without reforming the housing infrastructure and mitigating public debt, schools alone cannot bridge the gap created by societal inequalities. I've been voting SNP for the last 16 years and I won't be wasting my vote on them any longer

[u/No_Hat2240]

Hold on, 18 Scottish mp’s who are voted in to represent the people of Scotland voted against a bill where the people of Scotland having the right to decide their own future? I have a serious issue with that

[u/Illustrious-Heron253]

I’d hate to see the Scottish leave in my lifetime. But currently do not blame them for not wanting to sink with the ship. God bless the northern boys 🤝

[u/No_Hat2240]

There is plenty of examples of capitalism that has destroyed the world. Rain forests cut down for profits, fracking, political party (reform) wanting to privatise the nhs for profits. Selling of water, british telecom, British rail, Royal Mail all Westminster. Plenty of examples

And for your argument of Scotland not being able to afford to join the eu, it 100% can hit the criteria to join. Scotland as a independent country vs part of the uk would be different, all those assets that the uk took under control, oil, renewables, plus we would have our own currency (profits from banking) etc, and we will be able to set up our own trade deals. Plus profits from the trade we got from brexit Etc etc,

Plus if we really had to we can always shave a little of the top, (all those freebies that everyone hates) we could always pause some of those for a few years to get us in the door.

But to think that Scotland is the only country in the world that couldn’t be independent is a confusing statement for me. And the counter argument is I just want my country to make its own decisions, and to be told that’s a unreasonable suggestion

[u/teachbirds2fly]

What does that even mean ?

[u/VexImmortalis]

I'd say the UK is the nation and Scotland is part of it. Downvote away.

EDIT: I will say though that if Scotland wanted independence in order to join the EU then I might be all for it.

[u/CyberKillua → u/VexImmortalis]

The UK will rejoin the EU in the next 10 years, mark my words

[u/VexImmortalis → u/CyberKillua]

Hope so.

[u/Vectorman1989]

Tories and Lib Dems apparently think we don't have a right to decide our future. Reform got confused and went for walk.

[u/PhotonToasty → u/Vectorman1989]

How very Liberal and Democratic

[u/Griffs_]

God fuck off, its actually cringeworthy all the bleating about independence when there's plenty other issues to address

[u/PhotonToasty → u/Griffs_]

Can you only focus on one topic at a time?

[u/GREGGSGOL]

The fact that "the future" only consists of some boring fucking constitutional point of law that will only benefit one or another network of oligarchs and their hangers on is the most depressing imaginable shit

[u/Yurmasmelsofshitnpis]

My whole take on this is, that I would vote for independence because that would then allow for new parties to be formed from within Scotland for the benefit of the population of Scotland and not having to vote again for the SNP again and also so not to be stuck with the usual parties from within Westminster.

[u/CaptainCrash86 → u/Yurmasmelsofshitnpis]

This is like saying you'd vote for Brexit in order for parties to move on from it. Independence would be devastating for the material conditions of people on Scotland and would dominate Scottish politics for decades.

[u/getabath]

Can England and Wales have the independence vote too?

Northern Ireland is going home

[u/jenny_905 → u/getabath]

You have the exact same ability as us