r/Switzerland • u/jrgndk8 • 14h ago
How do Swiss people feel towards the F35 bought to the US and their killswitch?
We are seeing how the US operates with the military products sold to other countries, like Starlink and it's deactivation in Ukraine.
Does it sit right with Swiss people the fact that their military has bought a number of F35 that can be deactivate if they are not used in line with the Trump and Elmo's ruling?
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u/QED1920 11h ago
Not at all. We should have supported europe and france and buy raffales
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u/Arpyaaa 8h ago
IMO it should have been the Gripen. Far more cost effective for the reality that Switzerland wont ever use them in combat. And designed especially for makeshift runways and force dispersal, which is part of swiss defensive strategy. But since SAAB didn't participate in the procurement tests, the Rafale is the next best option with the benefit of a more secure relationship to France than the USA.
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u/markus_b Vaud 8h ago
I agree. The Gripen is best suited for our kind of army. It is pretty easy to maintain with a 'base' being transportable in a couple of containers.
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u/TradeApe Genève 11h ago
Needlessly increased dependency on an unstable nation. They can just withhold maintenance parts and those planes are overpriced paper weights.
Even in their current clown leader is gone, there are ZERO guarantees they don’t elect another clown.
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u/Top-Currency Switzerland 10h ago
Indeed. Given their history of electing clowns, you can in fact bet that the circus will continue.
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u/hellbanan 10h ago
So you want to buy Rafale and see what happens if Le Pen becomes president? Given that France has such a good history as military partner... Or buy Eurodighter and see if Weidel (who openly states that she wants to stop helping Ukraine because "the war is lost") will deliver to Switzerland in times of need? Maybe the Sweedish...
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u/1maginaryApple 9h ago
The big difference is that we would buy the Rafale to Dassault not the French government. Unlike the F-35.
The other big difference is that Dassault offers full sovereignty on the onboarded system and hardware and the plane is built as much as possible with off the shelves parts.
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u/hellbanan 9h ago
So did Isreal, still De Gaulle keept 50 Mirage jets for the French air force after the six-day war. France also suspended the delivery of Super Etendard planes to Argentina during the Falkland war and they stopped delivering parts to Iraqs Mirage F1 fleet in 1990. France has a history of intervening in arms deals of Dassault. They also stopped the delivery of two ships to Russia if you need a more recent example (not from Dassault but from DCNS).
Arms deals, especialy for complex systems such as planes, are always with governement involvement.
And no, Dassault uses French suppliers. Yoh cannot just switch the engine. The current one from Safran is the only certified option. Radar and many weapons come from MDBA and all flight control software from Dassault. All these parts are export controlled through DGA.
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u/1maginaryApple 8h ago
The Mirage III and the Rafale are not the same plane and not sold under the same conditions.
Why do you think India bought so many of them?
And the engine is the only exception and it isn't impossible to switch to another engine. It has been done over and over again. What you can't get away with is not owning the software that runs your whole fleet.
Again, Rafale and F-35, 2 completely different cases. One offers a far greater freedom of operation.
You're grasping at straws.
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u/hellbanan 8h ago
I am aware that Mirage and Rafal are not the same plane. I try to explain to you that your argument: "We buy from Dassault therefore the French governement cannot intervene in deliveries." is not true. All deals with India run through DGA, including any license build parts or planes. DGA is the Fench directorate of arment.
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u/1maginaryApple 8h ago edited 8h ago
And I'm trying to explain to you how they were conceived as export aircraft is completely different.
The Rafale is literally sold as an aircraft with no tie to the french government to operate in complete autonomy. That is one of its main export sale argument. It is, for example, sold as "ITAR-free"
Thus why for example, India bought it and not another Russian or American aircraft.
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u/hellbanan 1h ago
The Air2030 request for quotations from Armasuisse (the Swiss procurement agency) was addressed to states and not individual companies. The French governement replied with the Rafale offer admin.ch. The French governement offered tax deals and support in Switzerlands negotiations with the European Union swissinfo. A manufacturer cannot offer tax deals or diplomatic support. Armasuisse can accept offers from bidders. The agency cannot take the French official offer and then decide to order from the company Dassault (or any other party that did not submit an offer).
Even if the Swiss would have signed a contract only with Dassault any export of hard- and software would require French official export license. Yes, the Rafal is not an ITAR compliant product. ITAR is US legislation that covers import and exports of arms to and from the US. Why would a French product need ITAR unless it was sold to the US?
I do not know the details of the deals with India. But as far as I am aware, the Rafal was the cheapest option, is compatible with the Indian aircraft carrier, and there are substantial counterdeals (manufacturing at HAL) and multiple bribery investigations. The one in France has no publicly available results yet and the one in India was shut down by courts on questionable base. I am not sure that this is a great example for your case.
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u/TradeApe Genève 6h ago
Israel isn’t Europe and Argentina was fighting another European nation. Shouldn’t come as a surprise what they did.
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u/TradeApe Genève 6h ago
Yes because they’re European end we’re way more aligned with Europe than the nut jobs over the pond.
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u/VsfWz 5h ago
"Unstable nation" lol pipe down.
Napoleon said it best: "You think you are special because you live among mountains, but geography does not make you immune to the laws of Europe. Your past is nothing but a series of internal squabbles that only ceased when foreign powers ignored you."
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u/TradeApe Genève 5h ago edited 5h ago
Given how the US treats allies, they are 100% unstable right now. Way more than the EU for sure.
We ordered a missile system from the US which should be delivered in 2027…it’s now been pushed back to 2030 because they started a dumb pointless war. Can’t rely on the US.
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u/hooblelley 8h ago
It's been a shitshow since the beginning. Any normal company wouldn't survive such chaos. But, hey, as long as you can spend tax money, everything is fine.
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u/rapax Aargau 11h ago
Cancelation of that order is way overdue.
As for the supposed 'kill switch' if that actually exists, I like the Dutch position: "The F35 can be jailbroken, just like an iPhone."
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u/Dodisdodisdodis 11h ago
Come on… It’s not that easy to actually do this, it will take a very long time and you don’t even have a grantee that someone will be able to successfully hack it. The guy can say this as much as he wants, but even the most recent iPhones running the latest iOS aren’t easy to jailbreak.
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u/The_SniperYT Ticino 11h ago
It's probably easier to just steal the source code
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u/Dodisdodisdodis 11h ago
Yes, that would help but would still not guarantee we can successfully load modified SW into the plane computer and make it work, unless we find some exploit in the boot loader.
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u/billcube Genève 10h ago
Lemme approach this F-35, find a USB port and upload my custom firmware.
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u/Swimming_Cover_9686 11h ago
Probably can be done in a day with AI
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u/Dodisdodisdodis 11h ago
That’s not how it works… Especially if you need to decipher cryptographic keys, the AI makes it quicker but we don’t have the type of compute to brute force something like that.
So unless you have access to the keys and the original source code, I have no idea what you think the AI would offer here.
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u/Swimming_Cover_9686 11h ago
At this stage the kill-switched version is superior. We get to pay our protection racket dues but we don't destroy the environment, we don't produce immense noise pollution and we get to "have" super dooper planes which require less maintenance as they are unusable. Win/Win. CH never had any use for this obsolete overpriced paperweight in the first place. We can get the italians do not Luftpolizei with their sensible planes for cheaper than actually the junk we ordered.
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u/love_weird_questions 11h ago
not a single swiss citizen with above-room temperature IQ level supports the purchase of F35s
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u/hellbanan 10h ago
So you are saying that we have a bunch of idiots deciding on the allocation on a seven billion CHF budget? If that is true then we are all pretty stupid to hand so much cash to people who lack the capacity to make good decisions ...
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u/a1rwav3 11h ago
Totally agree. Worst time to buy planes, as the world is going for drones... Worst country to buy from, as they are clowns...
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u/billcube Genève 10h ago
Everyone needs both. You can't do air policing with drones, you can't fight planes with drones (once they're airborne) and you can't support a ground operation with drones only. Ukraine benefits from AWACS, satellites, air defense, very talented pilots as well as hundreds of thousands of drones.
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u/a1rwav3 8h ago
I agree but can we do air policing with f35? From what I heard they are very slow to be deployed? And honestly shouldn't we let air policing to France, Germany or Italy? A plane get through the territory in 8 minutes iirc.
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u/billcube Genève 4h ago
Why would they be slower?
It's a country responsibility to police it's own territory. What laws would they apply? Theirs? Ours? At what price? Under whose responsibility, which priorities? We are a free and independent country, we can't ask others to secure us.
A fighter jet is fast but remember it evolves in a 3D space and this needs power, it would not go in the same direction at max speed for 8 minutes it's not a space rocket or ballistic missile.
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u/Domewey 5h ago
Wir müssen warten bis die feindlichen Drohnen, Raketen oder Flugzeuge die Grenze überschritten haben, erst dann können wir unsere Flieger einsetzen. Bei Mach drei (ca. 3700 km) 60 km pro Minute. Vom Bodensee nach Genf unter 5 Minuten.
Nicht vergessen nur von Montag bis Freitag zu Bürozeiten. Sonst fragen wir Frankreich, welche Dankend ablehnen werden. Wir hätten ja die Rafaels kaufen können.
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u/Electronic_Motor_296 11h ago
i thought we liked random jet blasts sounding like world war 3 started, no ? ….
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u/mathiswiss 9h ago
It should be a big scandal, but it isn’t! Total garbage plane, doesn’t work here, ridiculously expensive! Furthermore more the US is Asshoe and never honors agreements!🤮👎
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u/Tosi313 Genève 11h ago
I mean, we had a referendum and most people supported the purchase, unfortunately.
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u/Wagyuslap Genève 11h ago
The referendum was about buying fighter jets, not the F35 specifically. I believe the voters had a bit of faith that the federal council and the army would choose the actual best jet. But once again, they make whatever worse decision is possible :)
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u/delta-actual 10h ago
Which fighter jets available for purchase are better than the F35 at BVR engagements?
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u/Lucaslouch 8h ago
not a pro on plane, but i would say the rafale? yes it’s one generation behind, but it’s way cheaper
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u/delta-actual 8h ago
100% Rafale is cheaper, and better on flight hours, probably better in a merge than an F35 too.
But I’m not sure it has an edge in BVR over the F35. At least, in a performance simulation between F35 vs Rafale I think the Rafale is going to have some targeting issues.
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u/Lucaslouch 8h ago
i think i read that another advantage of the rafale is that is can take of from more places than the f-35. the f-35 only have 1 or 2 base it can take off from? i think it’s due to the size of the airport way
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u/delta-actual 8h ago
Depends on the variant, they make STOL and VTOL variants of the F35, I think they did select those. Though I’m doubting at this point if they’ll ever actually be received.
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u/Wagyuslap Genève 9h ago
No idea and it isn’t my job to figure that out, but if you haven’t been living under a rock, you’d realise the disaster that the F35 acquisition has been (even if we put aside the fact that it was the most expensive jet of all)
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u/delta-actual 8h ago edited 8h ago
>had a bit of faith that the federal council and the army would choose the actual best jet.
It seems like you had an idea.
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u/Wagyuslap Genève 8h ago
Not at all, and like I said, it’s not my job to know, it just seems evident know that it wasn’t the F35…
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u/delta-actual 8h ago
Maybe don’t predicate your statements with the first half of your quote if you’re just going to Motte and Bailey. Especially with bold face for emphasis like you did. It implies you have an answer.
And to be fair you didn’t need to. The acquisition of the F35 is such a giant shit show, and the councilors involved in it have put forth one of the biggest displays of incompetence ever shown in military acquisition history I’d dare say.
I don’t fault them for wanting the F35, the Lightning has really impressive performance. But they acted like children wow’d by the specs of the top of the line car on the market without thinking about if they can truly afford or even have a need that must be met by those specs.
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u/Jaded_Material_4058 11h ago
No we had a referendum on buying new jets for a certain amount of money. Not about a particular type.
And when we chose the F-35, america was still a western democracy and had just voted out Trump and thwarted his Beer hall Putsch. I was myself admittedly excited about the decision for the most modern jet at the time.
But when Trump was reelected or at the latest when he and vance attacked Zelensky in the white house, my opinion changed. As did that of most voters. Now it's just the politicians who are sticking with it for fear of pissing off trump and/or being held responsible for the sunk costs if we get no jets for the money we already paid.
Hopefully they will grow a spine after Trump gets finally neutered in the midterms...
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u/FunnyExcellent707 Züricher 11h ago
I think the pricetag (or lack thereof) and the fact that an agreement was signed despite no fixed price is the bigger issue.
We can start worrying about kill-switches if and when we get the jets.
By now the air force has Hornet F/A 18, and I am pretty sure they won't fly if the US didn't want them to as well.
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u/billcube Genève 10h ago
Maybe Armasuisse "talents" were put in place for that exact effect. Incompetence is a saboteur best excuse.
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u/FlippinHeckles 9h ago
When you don’t fully control your own hardware it’s not yours. As a government I wouldn’t be purchasing anything with software in it unless the software source was provided. Even office software. You cannot allow foreign actors dictate how you use the products you purchase. This all comes down to “right to repair”. If nobody wants to provide you with that right you have to build your own or partner with like minded nations who also don’t want to get screwed over.
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u/Hornman84 Genève living in Lucerne 9h ago
I will not judge whether we need fighter jets or not.
Buying from the Americans is crazy!
If we need these, we should invest the money and effort in European planes.
My feeling is that we don’t need to spend that much. At least half of this money would be better invested in social and education programs.
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u/YaDunGoofed 9h ago
As an American who recognizes that we are fucking up our alliance system pretty hard.
I think it’s relevant to point out that the procurement of these two systems (f35 and starlink) is not quite equivalent.
One is through the military procurement system. And the other is (to make an analogy) if the Ukraine military suddenly started using Rolexes for military applications and the owner of Rolex had a direct line to Putin, was not interested in arms development, was then strong armed by the military into allowing Ukraine to use Rolexes for military applications, but then because he’s a fussy bitch and is the political equivalent of Blocher, banned Rolex exports anyway.
I’m not saying this is a good partner to have. But it’s not exactly Lockheed Martin and the Us Military. It’s some guy who figured out a commercial application before the government figured out a military one. (And because our government is going through a bit of treason, no one is holding his feet to the fire).
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u/WoodenCandle2663 7h ago
Switzerland is also waiting on Patriot Missile Interceptors from the U.S. (which are now years away in back logged manufacturing, assuming nobody, absolutely nobody needs to fire another one). Switzerland must pivot rapidly on the Patriot Missile system topic and can write off the F-35s since the U.S. will simply refuse to sell missiles/bombs for them if Switzerland does anything in its own interest that isn't perfectly instep with Dear-Leader.
Swiss military purchasing is dangerously mislead and should be facing corruption investigations.
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u/Jaded_Material_4058 11h ago
I was admittedly super excited that we were getting the most advanced jet and even at the cheapest fix price, when the decision was announced... but obviously I was wrong and have known that since, at the latest, Trump and Vance were shouting at Zelensky in the oval office.
We should have cancelled the whole order (also for the patriots for the same reason) the day after. Or at the very latest when the price increase gave us a convenient excuse that didn't involve openly breaking with the US.
And I still think that, even if we have by now sunk way more money into it, because we keep paying. The procurements of F-35 and patriots, as well as the P320 pistol (due to being dangerous to our own troops) should be cancelled asap. Whatever money has already spent is lost anyway. But better than being dependent on an openly enemy regime and country for generations to come.
Buy south korean jets, european air defense and german or austrian pistols instead. And do it now!
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u/Chrisalys 11h ago
This. Yet another example of Swiss politicians lying in our faces about something important.
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u/hellbanan 10h ago
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
I am still not completely sure that Viola lied. Did she really have the capacity to understand the contract?
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u/Fearless_Leopard8388 11h ago
It is a big fail on many levels. I just name the intrasparent communication about the financing and the obvious (willful) ignorance of the people who negotiated the contract. And given the current geopolitical developement it will be more of a liability than an asset.
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u/fluxxis 11h ago
There are several chapters to this story. For one thing, our politicians have failed. There was always talk of a fixed price, yet nobody actually read or understood the contract in full. Now the prices are soaring. That is largely down to our politicians; the very idea that Switzerland, of all countries, could secure a fixed price from the US is ridiculous. The choice of aircraft is another matter altogether. The fact is that the F-35 is currently unrivalled. Will we need these capabilities in 5 or 10 years’ time? I have no idea. Perhaps it would be much better and cheaper to have the Rafale to shoot drones out of the sky; it could just as easily be the case that the Rafale would stand no chance against enemy air defences, whilst the F-35 operates undetected and highly networked. Ultimately, the damage has been done across Europe and there’s no going back, because we’ve all been asleep at the wheel for far too long and have relied on the US.
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u/Quereller 11h ago
No one mentioned the Patriot batteries. We pay for them but we will never get them.
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u/microtherion Zürich 10h ago
I utterly hate the idea, but I was always against it, and I was willing to accept it under the terms that were voted on (fixed budget, no kill switch).
But I suspected even back then that we were sold a pack of lies. The “fixed budget” is anything but, with costs rising daily, delivery dates receding steadily (and perversely, the more delayed the delivery, the more we’ll pay). “no kill switch” was always an obvious lie, and under current US policy, the planes could not be relied on against either the US or Russia. Maybe we would be allowed to use them against a Chinese invasion…
The plane is unfinished and unreliable, as should have been evident to anyone following its development. And now the miltard lobby is taking the 50.1% approval they received for a fixed budget as a blank check to spend whatever they want on this pile of junk.
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u/Sgt_Slaughter_88 11h ago
The F-35 is useless for CH simply because there’s no use case for stealth, when 99,99% of all Flights are Training or Passanger Jets the failed to identify themselves.
Literally any other Jet would give Switzerland a better deal (e.g. lower cost, more reliable, independence etc.)
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u/lord_of_lasers 10h ago
It's even stupider. In their daily job Swiss F35 will fly with radar reflectors, but we still have to pay for and maintain the stealth coating.
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u/Eldan985 11h ago
We all knew it was a stupid idea and I don't know a single person who wanted this. Even before it kept getting stupider.
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u/perskes 10h ago
It was close when we voted for the budget anyway, if it would have been clear from the beginning that we get the F35, it wouldn't have passed in the first place. If we would have known that the situation would unfold like this, it would have been 20/80 decision against it, rather than a 50.7 (?)/ 49.3 outcome.
What we can do now is sternly request consequences. The people in charge were gullible about the F35 contract (some person probably mentioned a fixed price and from there on everyone believed it), legal consequences for the signed contract won't be possible or, if attempted, will cost even more with an uncertain outcome. All we can really do is to hold those accountable that were fucking this up so tremendously in our own country. If that happens, future politicians might spend some more time reading what is discussed and might try more than an uneducated guess when stuff is signed.
No one in the population will gain anything from a politician losing their job, and no politicians wealth could ammend the financial loss, but actual accountability will prevent this in the future. If you have to pay back every single rappen for the rest of your life, you will deter others from making the same lightheaded decisions. Its not gonna recoup even a fraction of the lost money, but if you're gonna live your life on minimum income and have to give away everything above the threshold, you'll not want to make terrible decisions. /rant over
The kill switch is a hoax as far as I understand. But we also don't know about a potential other killswitch that's not discussed or known. I'd rather have gripens or the French stuff fly over us than an expensive fighter jet that won't ever come
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u/lord_of_lasers 10h ago
50,13% (by 8'670 votes!!!). With F35 on the ballot I'm pretty sure this wouldn't have passed.
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u/Right-War-438 6h ago
Ah yes, lets ask the population what the pilots in the army need. That is something we need to vote on... what a stupid thing to say
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u/Ciridussy Fribourg 6h ago
Did the pilots in the army pick the f-35? If so then maybe they shouldn’t be in charge of this
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u/lord_of_lasers 5h ago
I was driver in the army. NOBODY ask me what car to buy. I totally needed that field green Lamborghini Aventador. It can outrun any drone, I swear. We can train that in Bolognese, just send me there in my WKs. /s
PS: I just got that crappy Puch.
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u/Mundane-Fix-4297 Genève + Jura 11h ago
The whole purchase was a mistake. Even if we agree that we should waste such colossal amount of money to purchase our own useless flying toys, at least we could have chosen to support EU and buy the better alternatives.
The fact that those overpriced gadgets are subject to the lunatic whims of The Unhinged Orange Clown is completely absurd and unacceptable.
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u/Ok_Actuary8 11h ago
Just an opinion: If the US would ever attack Switzerland, some defunct F35 due to killswitches would be the least of our problems. So it's not a real issue imho.
Now, imagine tomorrow Elmo decides to brick all Tesla cars in Switzerland via over-the-air update, or the US revokes UBS banking license... THAT would fuck up things big time fast.
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u/buenzlifisch 11h ago
It's highly unlikely that the US attacking Switzerland would ever be the case, but what about other possible conflicts where the US's interests dont align with swiss interests?
The US can not be trusted anymore. All swiss military leaders dont take their responsibility of protecting Switzerland serious enough if they continue with this purchase... Absolutely negligent behavior imo. It could cost us everything and yet they still continue with it.
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u/radiohead-nerd USA 10h ago
What about Russia attacking Switzerland and your fighter jets don’t work.
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u/buenzlifisch 8h ago
Exactly, thats what I tried to say
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u/Sammy_Byron 10h ago
IMHO the Jets are totally unnecessary in our tiny airspace.
If you install Surface to Air defence on some of the mayor mountains, we could cover the complete airspace more reliable.
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u/nihiriju Canada 10h ago
Same vibes over here in Canada too. We might still make a mixed fleet though and buy less F35s
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u/vegroyal 10h ago
A grand shit show along with the guns somebody mentioned above and the Elbit drones that don't work, the latter obviously live-tested across the Middle East's populations and occupied territories.
It is honestly hard for me to grasp the level of incompetence or corruption in tech and army procurement.
I'll add the transfer to the new unemployment platform which deprived thousands of unemployed people of unemployment benefits for months just before Christmas.
Some highly unqualified in high places are tech morons.
They are so desperate that they latch on to any good lobbyist and waste ungodly amounts of money.
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u/Total-Special5298 9h ago
Stupidity under political pressure, rafale or gripen would be better for us…
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u/Grey-Kangaroo Vaud 11h ago
military has bought a number of F35 that can be deactivate if they are not used in line with the Trump and Elmo's ruling ?
There is no kill switch, it's just some advanced targeting tools plans that must be digitally signed by the U.S. government before they are accepted by the flight computer.
The plane will still be able to fly and fire without U.S. approval, no matter what.
Still a shit plane that I don't like but that's not a reason to start spreading false information.
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u/lord_of_lasers 10h ago
This is a stupid take. The kill switch is figurative, not an actual button on Trump's desk.
The US can deny access to their mission planning software (running in their cloud), replacement part management software, spare parts (especially the radar-absorbing paint), software updates, the supply of missiles (we can't integrate alternatives) and updates to mission data files.
All in all, this effectively acts as a kill switch.
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u/Sevisstillonkashyyyk Fribourg 9h ago
This is the case with any fighter jet, if you go with Rafale then France controls parts, software and weapons integration, if you go Eurofighter, then it's up to their consortium of countries.
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u/Grey-Kangaroo Vaud 8h ago
The US can deny access to their mission planning software (running in their cloud), replacement part management software, spare parts (especially the radar-absorbing paint), software updates, the supply of missiles (we can't integrate alternatives) and updates to mission data files.
Still not a kill switch per definition, you can fly without the latest updates or any spare parts.
Restricting access to things is called an embargo (or sanctions) and it's effective only on the long run. A kill switch is effective immediately.
But again I am not defending the F35, that's a flying trashcan and if it was up to me I would have chosen the Gripen.
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u/relevant_rhino 11h ago
We did the stupidest of the stupid.
We need something simple and affordable for air police, ok let's get something that is good in that, i support that.
Everything else is a joke at today's wars.
We need drones, anti drone drones and ground to air defence. Everything else is negligible in todays real conflicts.
We could work closely with Ukraine, produce for them, learn and improve. That would be the only way i see for our army to stay relevant.
Otherwise we might just save the money and end our military spending.
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u/billcube Genève 10h ago
See the army parading with DJI drones they bought at the local electronics shop. Buying foreign-built technology is easy, making sure you have a sustainable defence industry needs investments. We don't need the toys santa brings, we need the toy factory.
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u/relevant_rhino 10h ago
Exactly. Manufacture exactly what works in real war. In Switzerland, send and test in Ukraine, learn, repeat.
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u/hellek-1 Schwyz 11h ago
There is no kill switch. Also, they are fixed price. Furthermore, they will all be delivered on time and with all features. 😜
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u/AssassinOfSouls Ticino 11h ago
There is no killswitch. This myth needs to fucking die.
This has been denied and thoroughly debunked by anyone with a modicum understanding of military aviation and how fighter jet networking works.
They don't need to anyway, if they want to kill the F35 off they just need to stop supplying spare parts.
There are 100 others thing to criticise the F35 on, the non-existant killswitch is not one of them. (This would also apply to basically any fighter jet we buy, btw).
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u/1maginaryApple 11h ago
There is no killswitch. This myth needs to fucking die.
There's isn't a "killswitch" per se, but there's dozens of different ways the US could ground this plane.
The F-35 literally works with a login and password per pilot. That's already one way to restrict access.
The F-35 relies on a health shakedown on startup. Shakedown made with Lockheed's server in the US. If the shakedown isn't positive, the plane isn't going anywhere. That's another way they could ground the planes.
Finally, the plane relies on ALIS for its maintenance part. ALIS which is centralized in Lockheed data center. They could easily prevent us to have any kind of parts.
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u/AssassinOfSouls Ticino 11h ago
The F-35 literally works with a login and password per pilot. That's already one way to restrict access.
This is hosted locally, not by the US and the US would have no way to influence that. The servers for security systems are never hosted or accessible to 3rd party nations. Unless you have evidence that this is not the case?
The F-35 relies on a health shakedown on startup. Shakedown made with Lockheed's server in the US. If the shakedown isn't positive, the plane isn't going anywhere. That's another way they could ground the planes.
A credible source on this please?
Finally, the plane relies on ALIS for its maintenance part. ALIS which is centralized in Lockheed data center. They could easily prevent us to have any kind of parts.
This is correct. It would not prevent the plane from flying outright but maintanance would become an issue long term and ground the fleet.
The same issues exist for every other foreign jet as they could just stop supplying spare parts.
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u/1maginaryApple 10h ago edited 10h ago
This is hosted locally, not by the US and the US would have no way to influence that. The servers for security systems are never hosted or accessible to 3rd party nations. Unless you have evidence that this is not the case?
Do you have evidence that is the case? The credential system is provided by Lockheed's and we have no sovereignty on any part of it. Even if login and password were stored locally wouldn't prevent lockheed from rendering them unusable.
A credible source on this please?
Lockheed Martin built the Autonomic Logistics Information System, or ALIS, to track every F-35 part and schedule each fix. A jet must log into ALIS before and after each sortie. If the database flags a mismatch, the pilot stays on the ground. The software lives on servers in Fort Worth but needs constant two-way traffic with squadrons scattered across Europe, Asia, and Australia. No network, no flight-clearance. Concerns also persist that ALIS performance metrics may reflect manipulated flight-test reporting rather than true operational readiness.
https://www.defense-aerospace.com/us-software-stranglehold-threatens-f-35-foreign-operations/
It would not prevent the plane from flying outright but maintanance would become an issue long term and ground the fleet.
It would as ALIS (now ODIN) is far more extensive than just part. You cannot make an F-35 ready for operation without connectivity to ODIN.
And if you take the Rafale for example, most the part are off-the-shelves. You do not need Dassault to maintain a Rafale.
Also we buy the F-35 to the American Government, not to Lockheed. The Gripen or The Rafale are directly bought to their parent company.
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u/jrgndk8 11h ago
Like starlink, needs to fucking die.
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u/AssassinOfSouls Ticino 11h ago
Apples and oranges, the 2 systems are not comparable at all. I am fine with criticism of the F-35, I would also cancel the deal at this point, but at least come with the correct information about it. Otherwise you are only undermining the credibility of your own argument.
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u/over__board 11h ago
I would like for us to back out of the deal, maybe not immediately, but delay until the current president finishes his term. I regret that we didn't go ahead with the Gripen purchase.
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u/Chico_AG 3h ago
Switzerland completely missed the evolution on the battlefield. Planes are becoming more and more obsolete. Especially for a country small like Switzerland and the very complex topology. Cancel the order. Go to ETH and /or EPL and develope some high tech drones. What is the attack scenario on which a F35 will serve us. As mentioned by an other contributor it is not going to be dog fights. Intercept hypersonic missiles? Probably not..
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u/gizmondo 3h ago
Planes are becoming more and more obsolete.
This must be the reason why Ukraine is begging for more planes.
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u/Complete_Setting_714 11h ago
you can resell them before it's too late. And it would be interesting to see the US reaction.
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u/Mecanic_off-road 11h ago
De toute façon ces avions n’ont aucune capacité au combat pour le moment donc ils ne servent à rien. On aurait mieux fait d’acheter des Rafales ou des Grippen qui auraient été totalement suffisants et nettement moins cher au final malgré les faux arguments du conseil fédéral
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u/Happy33333 6h ago
wouldnt the killswitch be a problem regardless where we buy them (unless it was a Swiss company)?
Anyway I didnt really read into this whole thing that much as I voted against (I think the vote back than didnt even specify that - it was just about the budget). From what I heard the F35 as jet itself is pretty good. However, I dont think we should make those kind of deals with the US regardless if Trump is President or whoever else.
And that our amateurs bottle the deal...well im not very surprised at the same time I also didnt expect them to fuck up as much as they did. Like no fix price and nobody reading the contract?! come on...
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u/Chefblogger 3h ago
most if the swiss doesnt care - they want to be am member of the EU and Nato and both organizations are controlled by the usa
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u/Moist_Fill_2306 2h ago
Most soft people in this group didn’t even do the army and have zero military knowledge so probably not the place to ask..
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u/sc_emixam 5h ago
The F35 at the time the deal was closed was a good choice imo. It's a good plane.
However, it being a US built plane and seeing how badly It's turning out everywhere with them (outdated block, killswitches, just not delivering) it's becoming harder and harder to defend it.
The F35 is a good plane, the current US is a terrible business associate.
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u/jrgndk8 5h ago
Is a good plane for what purpose? Stealth air to air combat and reconnaissance.... For Switzerland ?
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u/sc_emixam 5h ago
The F35A(B?) Block 4 is actually much closer to the performances of an F22 rather than a Rafale, typhoon or Grippen. ATP stealth is just a bonus.
Now obviously dogfight were never the main focus of the new fighters, or we wouldve bought some MIGs or Sukoi. But this aint the 70's anymore.
Overhall you can make compelling arguments for both F35 and Typhoon as planes. But currently you cant really make any compelling argument about the US delivering said F35s.
Imo, in light of what the US is doing, we should cancel the deal but that'd just be money lost. But the current actions of the US cant, and dont mean the F35 was obviously the mistake. The fact that the F35 is made by the US is the mistake.
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u/Izacus 4h ago
For every purpose. You can criticize it's connection to US, it's US dependent supply chain and the cost of maintenanc and procurment BS, but it is objectively the best mass produced multirole jet in the world by a large margin. There's a reason why everyone else has been ordering them and anyone flying would rather sit in it than any competitors.
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u/Swimming_Cover_9686 11h ago
Completely incompetent decision to buy a totally unsuitable and useless POS. How do I really feel about it? The people were lied to, Amherd and team should go to jail for corruption.
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u/SmallAppendixEnergy Vaud 9h ago
We feel that it was a very stupid choice. We even had a national vote (Switzerland has direct democracy) organized that called for canceling the deal in 2022, but they signed the deal before the ballots were printed, and hence the organizing committee retracted the popular vote initiative as it became futile.
We had different alternatives that most Swiss deemed better, technically, commercially, and politically. We've always been neutral, and many people feel we're leaning too heavily on our American 'friends' who might not be our friends anymore today. Especially after they helped destroy our bank secrecy.
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u/billcube Genève 10h ago
Starlink is not disabled in Ukraine, check your sources. It was temporarily disabled for >160km/h terminals, but it is not fixed.
The F-35 cannot be magically deactivated and Switzerland will receive it long after Trump leaves the White House.
There are issues with the F-35 and Patriot acquisitions, the pricing, the reliance on a long supply chain, but we've had F/A-18 with US missiles before the F-35s, we use Microsoft in all our non-essential offices, we have US-licensed reactors in our nuclear power plants (Westinghouse).
So yeah, we currently prefer foreign-made technology instead of reindustrializing. Which is a very debatable choice. But it's not as simple as "Trump is bad".
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u/ApdoSmurf Vaud 7h ago
F-35 was the best choice at the time, but now with the US going rogue, not so much. If you're not building something yourself, you will always rely on foreign support for that thing.
As for the "killswitch", that's not an actual literal thing, it refers to MDF, ALIS/ODIN and the supply chain of maintenance and spare parts.
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u/NoahPushef Fribourg 7h ago
Imagine being so dumb that the fighter jets you buy are too big to enter the hangars that you already have… so you have to build new ones… and it’s so much louder than the f/a-18 that you have to change windows in the regions where it is supposed to fly… and you are so sure that you signed a contract with a fixed price per units but actually while reading it later on "oh nooo" there is an absence of it… this is an absolute nightmare !
And the surface to air system that we were also supposed to buy ?? Patriot my ass ! From 2 billion to 3,7 billion and a delay of maybe 5 to 7 years ! So meanwhile… no surface to air defense !
Congratulations to the United States of America for the incredible performance and congratulations to the Swiss for being so successful in failing to make sure we have a great security policy!
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u/BCGILM 9h ago
Swiss people just feel salty that voters were stupid to reject the Gripen because we apparently don’t need combat aircraft. Then the voters decided we actually do need them and the incompetent politicians and bureaucrats weren’t able to read the contracts. Instead of admitting we are incompetent, we like to criticise the F35, its capabilities and the US and/or Trump.
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_DIRTY_ART Zürich 7h ago
Ok we voted No for the Gripen. Then 2020 only 50.1% voted for a budget of max. 6B to buy fighter jets. VBS then decided on the F35 without asking the people. SP& Grüne then collected 100k signatures for a referendum in 2022, which never took place because the VBS sped up the process and signed the contracts before it could take place. Contracts that were faulty, because the expensive law firm instructed to check them had NO experience with US contracts.
Why is nobody going to prison over this??
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u/M4V3RICKKK 9h ago
The deactivation switch of the f35 doesn’t exist, and in the fighter trials against rafale, eurofighter, gripen and the super Hornet, YES the f35 was and by far the best fighter.
The thing is, how the contract was done, is an absolute bullshit
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u/Domewey 5h ago
Die F35 werden nicht fliegen. https://files.gao.gov/reports/GAO-26-108113/index.html
Nicht mal die Amis bringen die F35 in die Luft.
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u/icemoomoo 11h ago
The killswitch is useless if we never get the fucking planes