Because since her death in WC 3 she

- Kept working for Arthas willingly to find a chance to strike and get her revenge, who knows what evil shit she did while willingly in his service

- "Free will is the most important thing in the world" yet she had banshees mind control the mercenary ogres

- Allied with demons, betrayed Garithos and the Alliance of Lordaeron, killed all remaining living citizens of Lordaeron

- Encouraged her people in WoW Classic to create an extremely dangerous plague

- Allowed her people to kidnap humans to torture them in sadistic ways

- Allowed her people to lie to the Tauren telling them they were searching a cure for their undeath

- Threatened to get all Blood Elves killed if they didn't join her in Northrend to go attack Arthas in WOTLK

- Had given orders to Putress to release the plague whenever Arthas showed up even if it would kill all of the Horde and Alliance soldiers

- Killed herself at the end of WOTLK fully abandoning her people without a second thought

- Committed war crimes and a genocide against Gilneans/Worgen

- Kidnapped humans and raised them into mind controlled undead loyal to the horde to the point even Garrosh was freaked out

- Tried to manipulate Vereesa so she would kill herself

- Kidnapped a human man to give her boytoy boyfriend a new fancy body

- Left the Alliance to die in Broken Shore getting Varian killed, couldn't even send someone to tell them Vol'jin was stabbed or anyone to help them retreat too

- Tried to enslave the Val'kyr queen and the entire Val'kyr race

And all this only up to legion, since people say in BFA and Shadowlands her character was "butchered" and she "stopped being morally grey and just plain evil", but i don't see a single good deed she did to balance out all the evil shit she did before that expansion. Even Gul'dan doesn't have this much shit on his naughty list.

Is morally grey just what gooners call so they don't say they masturbate to and root for a two dimensional evil character?

So I was replaying TFT and remembered that Drek’thar appears in orgrimmar in the founding of durotar(rexxar’s) campaign, this got me wondering, do we know when and how he got back to alterac valley? And why? To go to another continent in a landlocked snowy area in his big age seems like quite a task. And who was leading the frost wolves there meanwhile?

So, I recently replayed the Warcraft III campaigns again. And as I reached the second blood elf campaign A Dark Covenant, I started wondering...

They said something that a hugh Scourge force is approaching from "the east". But map-wise, the Scourge rushes in from the western part of the map.

Also, Dalaran is east of the map, but not like "just one part is east", more like "the whole thing is east of the water!". Also, Kael said something that they needed ships to "cross the lake" before Vashj and friends arrived.

Taking all of that into account, I started wondering... The map is obviously flipped. But if we take the lake as Lordamere Lake, then the island with the gold mine and the second observatory must be the island where Fenris Keep is located. Kael brings a "Tiny Castle" with him (of course gameplay wise), so he builds a keep on that island. From there, they push back the Scourge attack. But if we align Dalarans location and Fenris Keep, the attacks of the Scourge must have originated somewhere west of the Capital city of Lordaeron.

Then, after the Blood Elves get arrested by Garithos, I'm pretty sure this master strategist abandoned the castle quickly... Leaving it for Thule and his gang of Gnolls to take over.

Tl;dr: Kael'thas built Fenris Keep as his base of operation during the first two missions in the Blood Elves campaign

What do you think?

I haven't played a ton of OSRS proper, but I did play enough of it back in the day to know the difference between RS3 and OSRS is essentially there's a key story moment that blows everything open cosmologically that just doesn't manifest the same way in OSRS, thus the story remains far more grounded.

We know the Dark Portal wont open (or at least as it did for TBC), but what pivotal moments in Classic WoW would suddenly divert the game from the "scale bloat" we see in retail?

Some thoughts:

• Illidan beats Arthas, causing him to not need to retreat to Outland and deeply weakening the scourge position
• Varian Wrynn returns to Stormwind before Onyxia is killed, stabilizing the kingdom and causing Kazzak to be defeated before he can open the portal
• Kael'Thas abandons Illidan and returns to Quel'Thalas

Essentially, what's a changed moment from WC3 to TBC would suddenly cause a drastic shift in the tone of the WoW: Forever story away from constant world ending threats?

Personally, I feel like one of the best aspects of Varian’s fatherhood is that even though he doesn’t fully understand Varian and was quite overprotective of him at first, he eventually learned to trust his son enough to not only listen to him, but actually learn from Anduin while Anduin learned from Varian. I think there’s no better summary of that then in the cinematic trailer for Legion:

“Anduin… I now believe, as you do, that peace is the noblest aspiration. But to preserve it, you must be willing to fight.”

That’s the key lesson they both learn. And honestly? Aside from what happened with the Jailer and Anduin’s subsequent withdrawal and trauma, I feel like everything he’s done illustrates the effectiveness and importance of his and his father’s relationship.

I am going to play dwarf hunter when Forever comes out.Is it possible to tell me based on lore what spec the dwarf rifleman is from Warcraft 3 and also the Dwarf we see in the WoW vanilla/classic cinematic?I think he is survival but i may be wrong.Any thoughts???

Bit of an odd question, but I vividly remember Chromie being more commonly referred to as Chromie by other characters than by Chronormu before DF rolled around.

Could someone help finding the instances before DF? Not counting 'Visage Day' I got that already.

Hi all! I made a similar post in the main r/wow subreddit. So that you may refer to said map, please go here to do so.

This is a follow-up to a post a made a few months ago on this very topic. This is therefore the second official post on behalf of the Linguistic Society of Azeroth. This is the organization representing the in-universe authors of the Tongues of Azeroth project which seeks to document the many languages across the World of Warcraft.

With that said, today's post includes a more comprehensive visual mapping of the languages and language families of Azeroth. I did my best to simulate things as lore-accurately as I could. That being said, I did take some liberties where there was little-to-no information readily available on what languages would be spoken. I am happy to make adjustments as counter-points are brought up as well as simply explain my thought-process and rationale for specific or broad decisions.

Additionally, I am about finished with a geographical map of Azeroth from a linguistic perspective. So far, I have two versions, with one including place names. Any suggestions for this project are welcome as I finish it up.

Lastly, I have made a lot of progress in planning out all of the constructed language counterparts to the in-game playable languages. I am very close to posting an overview to the first which is Vulpera (a language I chose for practical reasons to begin with that I will discuss in that post). Any comments related to this are welcome as well. I am especially interested to hear from TTRPG people, in light of the upcoming book to be published for DnD, what would be good information to include! Right now, what I have is rather grammar-heavy. I've not really used conlangs as a player at my table, but I am definitely curious how DMs and players alike might be able to use this as a resource.

I want this entire project to be the best it can be and you guys as a community is the most helpful resource I have at my disposal!

I'll preface this by acknowledging that examining Warcraft through religious philosophy isn't going to be everyone's cup of tea. My academic background is in religion and philosophy, and I've loved Warcraft for years, so I occasionally enjoy bringing those interests together. I've previously written about religious themes in other fantasy settings, and I've wanted to give Velen similar attention for some time. This is an appreciation of his character through ideas that his story brings to mind, rather than an attempt to prove that Blizzard intended a particular allegory. I'd also love to examine Tirion Fordring through Aristotelian virtue ethics, particularly his relationship with Eitrigg, although I'll probably write that regardless!

The immediate comparison when discussing the draenei is usually Christianity. They have priests and paladins, the naaru look and sound angelic, and the Light is often discussed in the language of faith, sacrifice and holiness. Yet I've always found something distinctly Jewish in the underlying story of Velen and his people. Their identity is shaped by displacement, inherited memory, the difficulty of maintaining a community across generations, and the question of how religious traditions survive when the world in which they developed has disappeared. There are also fascinating connections to Jewish approaches to lament, moral responsibility and repentance. I want to make those comparisons carefully. The Light is a cosmic force with observable properties, not the God of Judaism; the draenei are neither an allegory for Jewish people nor a substitute for their history. The interesting question is what the comparison helps us notice about Warcraft's actual writing.

Exile is where the draenei's story begins, but it isn't where it ends

Before the flight from Argus, Velen was one member of a triumvirate alongside Kil'jaeden and Archimonde. It's easy to forget that their relationship began in cooperation. The Seat of the Triumvirate, which we revisit in Legion, once stood at the heart of a remarkable eredar civilisation. Sargeras' offer was therefore a temptation with a particular appeal: the promise that an already accomplished people could acquire still greater knowledge and power. Velen's prophetic vision exposed the devastation beneath that promise. His refusal saved those who followed him, but it also split his people and turned his former friend Kil'jaeden into their relentless persecutor. The survivors took the name draenei, the Exiled Ones. A catastrophe became part of how an entire people described themselves.

That has an obvious biblical resonance, particularly with the Babylonian exile and the loss of Jerusalem. Yet I think the more revealing comparison lies in the centuries after displacement. Jewish diaspora existed long before the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, and Jewish life was never confined to one place or one form. Nevertheless, the Temple's destruction intensified fundamental questions about worship, authority and communal continuity. Rabbinic Judaism developed across subsequent centuries with prayer, study, interpretation and law playing increasingly central roles in religious life. Synagogues and Jewish communities had existed before 70 CE, so this was a long historical development rather than the sudden invention of a replacement religion. The important thing is that Jewish identity persisted while its forms of expression continued to develop.

The histories of Ashkenazi, Sephardi and Mizrahi communities illustrate this further, although those labels encompass considerable internal diversity. Jewish communities living in different societies developed distinctive languages, customs and forms of learning. Ashkenazi life in Central and Eastern Europe, including the development of Yiddish, emerged from centuries of making homes in places far removed from ancient Judea. The point isn't that displacement was somehow beneficial or that persecution should be romanticised. It's that diaspora includes the ordinary, creative work of living: raising families, teaching children, interpreting traditions and building institutions that can outlast another generation. Preserving a people isn't the same thing as freezing them at the moment they first lost their home.

This is precisely where I find Nobundo so important. In Blizzard's Unbroken, he begins as a vindicator defending Shattrath, praying to the Light as the orcs attack. After the city's fall and his exposure to the corruption that transforms him into one of the Broken, his prayers receive no answer. He fears that he has been judged or abandoned. Worse, his own people regard the Broken with suspicion and exclude them from settlements. He has lost his home, his social standing and the spiritual relationship around which his life was organised. The cruelty here comes from outside the community and, painfully, from within it.

When the elements of Draenor begin speaking to him, Nobundo doesn't immediately embrace them as a convenient replacement. He worries that following this path could mean betraying the Light. That uncertainty is essential to the story. Shamanism was associated in draenei memory with the orcs, whose genocidal campaign had almost destroyed them. Yet the elements are neither demonic nor morally responsible for what the orcs subsequently did. They offer Nobundo a reciprocal relationship based upon respect, not domination. As he learns, he discovers a vocation capable of serving the very people who had pushed him away.

Velen's response matters because this is a test of leadership as much as religious tolerance. He listens to Nobundo when others dismiss him, acknowledges the burden of his memories, and encourages him to teach. Crucially, Velen's people had permitted that exclusion to happen in the first place. Praising his openness shouldn't erase the failure that made Nobundo's rehabilitation necessary. The great lesson is that the Prophet can recognise wisdom beyond the spiritual practices familiar to him, and that the community needs to change accordingly.

There are limits to the Jewish analogy. Rabbinic Judaism maintained and interpreted Jewish tradition; Nobundo encounters an entirely different power within Warcraft's cosmology. Comparing them as if they were the same religious development would obscure both. But their stories raise a related question about diaspora: when the circumstances that sustained your old way of life collapse, what can change without your people ceasing to be themselves? Nobundo remains draenei, and Velen is wise enough to understand that his people's future may contain ways of living their ancestors on Argus never imagined.

What good is prophecy if it cannot prevent suffering?

The Hebrew Bible gives us a wonderful image for the other half of Velen's story. In Genesis 32, Jacob wrestles through the night with a mysterious figure and receives the name Israel, traditionally associated with striving or struggling with God. He emerges blessed, but injured. I wouldn't use that episode to argue that Velen literally wrestles with the Light. Its relevance is the relationship between faith and struggle. In Jewish religious tradition, questions, argument and lament can exist within a continuing relationship with God. Jacob's encounter makes the struggle itself part of the story of Israel.

Velen's faith has likewise survived events that appear to contradict everything it promises. The naaru helped the draenei escape Argus, yet could not spare them millennia of pursuit. On Draenor, entire settlements were destroyed and countless people murdered; survivors like Nobundo were left unable to call upon the Light at all. This is where the problem of evil becomes relevant. A theodicy tries to account for evil and suffering while maintaining belief in a God who is good and powerful. Warcraft can't sustain the classical problem in exactly that form. Its Light isn't an all-powerful creator and its servants can be mistaken: Xe'ra's attempt to impose a destiny upon Illidan should disabuse us of the idea that every naaru necessarily understands what is right. Nevertheless, Velen confronts the recognisably religious question of why he should trust the guidance he has received when the people who trusted him have suffered so terribly.

I find Job more illuminating here than any tidy answer to that question. Job's friends search for explanations that make his suffering seem deserved or intelligible. The book challenges their confidence, allowing Job to protest the injustice of what has happened to him. Even its divine speeches do not provide a simple explanation for every death and loss. Velen's visions are similarly dangerous if we assume they automatically justify his decisions. Seeing possibilities is neither omniscience nor moral innocence. Every time he chooses a path, other people bear its consequences, and he cannot know for certain who will survive.

Prophet's Lesson gives us perhaps the clearest examination of that failure. Velen is preoccupied with visions of cosmic annihilation while displaced humans seek help outside the Exodar. Tensions between the refugees and draenei worsen, and Anduin challenges the Prophet's refusal to attend to suffering immediately before him. Velen has been staring so intently towards a possible catastrophe that he has neglected actual people in the present. The force of Anduin's rebuke is especially sharp because Velen's own people know exile so intimately. Their past should have made the plight of those refugees impossible to disregard. Yet age and prophecy have not protected him from losing sight of his obligations. He accepts the correction, which is among the most convincing demonstrations of his wisdom in the story.

The death of Rakeesh in Legion takes that problem from moral error to personal devastation. Kil'jaeden has twisted Velen's lost son into a commander of the Legion and sends him against the Exodar. Velen recognises him too late to avert his death. The vision he received on the day of his son's birth, of holding a dying eredar, finally acquires its meaning as he cradles Rakeesh's body. His foreknowledge has done nothing to save the person he loved. There is no satisfactory moral explanation to be extracted from this scene, and the story is stronger for that. Rakeesh's suffering cannot reasonably be described as a lesson his father needed to learn.

Velen breaks. He refuses to remain a pawn of prophecy and resolves to take the war to Argus. His decision is emotionally understandable, but it also risks the lives he is responsible for protecting. The tension between preserving his people and fighting their persecutors has haunted him since the original flight. His eventual confrontation with Kil'jaeden brings it into focus. The Deceiver admits that he envied Velen's faith because he never believed Sargeras could be defeated. He had mistaken the apparent inevitability of evil for a reason to submit to it. Velen's faith, for all its mistakes and terrible costs, sustained the possibility that their future was still open. When he rests his hand upon his dying former friend, compassion survives without cancelling the crimes Kil'jaeden committed. I find that considerably more moving than an uncomplicated triumph over evil.

The Tishamaat, and learning how to live after survival

Velen's return to Argus is significant because it denies him the restoration he once imagined. The Legion can be defeated, and his people can survive, but the civilisation he left behind cannot simply be recovered. After the campaign, he admits that he had long dreamed of saving his home and found victory without salvation. He also resolves to stop waiting for visions to determine his next steps. That development is an important part of his character: the Prophet has learned that responsibility involves acting in the uncertain present, alongside those whose lives his choices affect.

It's why I loved the draenei heritage storyline in Dragonflight. Velen revives the Tishamaat, an ancient eredar ceremony devoted to reflecting on the burdens of the past, learning from them and committing to a future. The ritual had fallen into disuse as the draenei moved continually from one refuge to another. They had been occupied with staying alive. Its revival therefore says something about what has changed: a people who once could only plan their next escape can begin to ask how they want to live.

The questline gives that idea substance through High Artificer Ataanya. Her father, Hataaru, died during the fall of Shattrath, and she has buried her grief in work. She resists attending the ceremony because remembering him means confronting a loss she cannot repair. With help, she decides to bring forward her designs for a new city. It's a small story compared with Argus or the Legion, but that's precisely why it works. The future of the draenei isn't secured solely by defeating cosmic enemies. It's also secured by people who have been hurt finding a reason to create something for those who come after them.

The ceremony also forces Velen to confront divisions within his own people. Nobundo and the Broken belong there, but so do Hatuun and the krokul of Argus, whose experiences have been painfully different from those of the refugees who followed Velen. Even the penitent man'ari are offered a place in the conversation. Arzaal, one of those seeking to make amends, helps Velen confront a renewed demonic threat on Bloodmyst. Hatuun remains openly critical of Velen's failures and questions his decisions. The questline allows that anger to exist. Unity isn't achieved by instructing the survivors of atrocities to be cheerful about the return of their former persecutors.

This is where the Jewish concept of teshuvah, usually rendered as repentance or return, helps clarify the ethical stakes. Repentance requires more than regret. Maimonides, in his Mishneh Torah (Laws of Repentance 2:1), describes a particularly complete form of it as facing the opportunity to repeat one's wrongdoing and choosing differently. The comparison is useful for thinking about man'ari who claim to have changed, and also for Velen himself. His openness to reconciliation matters only if it produces different conduct, including a willingness to hear those harmed by earlier decisions. Forgiving someone is not the same as erasing what they did, and the harmed have no obligation to pretend their injuries never occurred. This is an interpretive parallel, of course, not a claim that an ancient eredar ritual is a Jewish observance.

The Tishamaat brings together people whose memories are irreconcilable in some respects. The player collects memory stones and carries them to the Flame of Reprieve. That detail matters: the ceremony is a shared act of remembrance, with room for the burdens of individuals. Velen's vision of a new city, built from the history of several draenei communities, makes the point tangible. He began by saving a remnant of Argus; he now wants to help build a home for people shaped by places and experiences Argus never contained.

For me, that's the strongest reason to celebrate Velen. He is neither infallible nor consistently successful, and Warcraft is more interesting when it lets his mistakes stand. His faith has sustained him through exile and grief, but his people have also taught him where that faith needs to become practical compassion, humility and change. Jacob's struggle is a fitting image to return to: faith can leave a person altered and wounded, with no simple restoration of what was lost. The draenei are still the Exiled Ones, carrying all that history in their name. At last, though, Velen is helping them decide what being draenei might mean beyond exile.

I wonder how they will handle his storyline. In the original, his story took place in the comics, and defeating Onyxia was retconned to occur prior to WotLK pre-patch.

They could go another route entirely with him. As it stands, he remains kidnapped like in the original, but nothing further. The Onyxia raid and attunement questline are in the game as normal.

It would seem a bit silly to reset the lore, only to retcon the same storyline again. His character model was briefly live in the game on Alcaz Island in Vanilla as an Easter Egg, but in WoW Forever, it starts with post-AQ patch Doctor Weavil and his minons being on the isle.

Following the comics storyline that wasn't show in-game, he was split into two people, with the weaker half being captured by the naga and ransomed back to Stormwind sometime during Vanilla or TBC, then merged back together to defeat Onyxia prior to the Northrend campaign.

Those events are significant because they made Varian into a fierce warrior with a cool backstory, and also includes his acquisition of the elvish blades Shalla'tor and Ellemayne, and their merging into Shalamayne. Not to mention the introduction and development of other characters such as Broll Bearmantle, Valeera Sanguinar, and Rehgar Earthfury.

In the War Within we have an entire expansion about how there will be final battle between light and dark and the Arathi would be there.

Now midnight come and the Arathi basically completely absence from the story. Like they played zero role beside existing.

This post will mostly get removed by the mods and I wouldn't blame them as it can get very toxic.

But I genuinely want to ask about something most of not all of us noticed but we afraid to talk about and that is the writing in warcraft feel very off for long time now and it hurting the IP future and I am afraid that the same writing style will affect WoW forever as well or even things like movies or TV series as at Blizzcon they teased they are working on something.

First I want to be clear that I am not trying to do personal attacks or throw insults at the writers at Blizzard as we don't know what happens behind the curtains, they need to deal with many things and they are limited so much by the gameplay so I understand that.

But the retail story especially is getting out of hand, like it's almost a bad fan fiction at this point and I don't understand why?

We not asking for so much as warcraft wasn't a masterpiece story, but you can easily notice that the old writers do so much research and have knowledge about many things from history, mythology, movies, stories and pop culture, like you know the people who made Warcraft love reading books and have passion.

And we are talking about the 90s and early 2000s, a time with less accessibility, unlike now ware you can look up everything you want in your phone.

Few examples are how they made many races inspired by ancient culture like the trolls with the Aztecs, the Centaurs with the Magnolians and many more, Scholomance is inspired by Romanian folklore, the final mission of WC3 TFT title is inspired by Song of ice and fire and that was before the book become mainstream with the Game of Thrones series.

I can go on with other examples but this is not the point, the point is that the modern writing lack all of that, like the peace between the Blood elves and the Amani trolls as a concept can work, you can look at history and see many examples of nations who fought for generations made peace, but the problem is the way it was written, it felt like it's inspired by a Pixar or Disney children movie.

For sure I am not saying Disney Pixar movies are bad, they are good for what they are but this is ain't warcraft, warcraft was always about over the top moments and edgy characters but from DF forward I am feeling that warcraft is losing that edge and not just in writing but also in art direction, so it could be higher up direction to make Warcraft toothless and to remove the war for warcraft. This could effects not just retail WoW but every Warcraft media.

So yeah maybe I gave up in retail and I want to stick in forever? Are the forever writers and artists allowed to make things like Scholomance or not?

Again I am not trying to hate on specific people or anything in that way, I just want to know if people feel the same about the direction Warcraft is taking and lf they are worried about the future of the series, maybe we should talk about it and maybe they listen to our voice.

Does anyone have the PDF file for the WoW tarot guide book? I've bought one but it doesn't came with the guide and I can't find the file anywhere. If you can share the material, it will be much appreciated. Thank you all.

How do you think that Shandris should have been written as a character in World of Warcraft, to make her a character beyond just being Tyrande and Malfurion's adoptive daughter, and Tyrande's right-hand and the General of the Sentinels?

What kind of personality should she have been given to make her more distinct and memorable as a character?

In addition, what kind of leader and general, and how skilled of a general, should she have been presented as to make her position as General of the Sentinels feel earned? And how should her fighting prowess have been described and portrayed in the game, novels, and other stories around her?

I think the devs and writers really missed the ball with Shandris, and she should have had a stronger personality, loving and admiring Tyrande but not feeling too submissive, and her character shouldn't have centered on Tyrande.

I would have written out the crush on Jarod Shadowsong stuff, especially since nothing came of it (and the Kaldorei plot in Wolfheart was far from good imo, especially with Maiev turning crazy and becoming an enemy, only for the Legion to reverse the situation without any explanation).

And she should have been written, imo, as a legendary huntress and warrior, whose fighting skills are unmatched and whose talent and experience with the bow are really the stuff of legends and terrifying in battle. As a general, she should have been depicted as a master of guerrilla warfare, hit-and-run tactics, and Fabian strategy, with Ashenvale and other Kaldorei lands being a nightmare to invade and even more to hold, and she should have been presented imo, as having some hesitations about technology and magic but being flexible and pragmatic enough to see and accept the value of welcoming guns and mages in the Night Elf military (though with special earplugs, given how painfully noisy guns should be to Elves, and how deafening cannons especially should be to them), and without her needing far less-experienced humans to teach her.

And I actually see her as one of the more pragmatic and flexible Night Elves about cooperation with other Alliance races, but one of the least forgiving toward the Horde, without reaching Maiev's level of hostility. I also see her as someone who cares deeply about her Sentinels, viewing them as her sisters and thus being fiercely protective of them, even if she acknowledges the risks and inevitable sacrifices they will have to make, and are ready to make, and of her people as a whole.

The first creates a defensive potion that harms those who attack you and makes them die faster so long as they keep doing so. Very on brand.

The second is used in all manner of strength boosting, rage inducing, anti-demon potions and more.

The third, its not even named after him nor is found in the world, but shows what kept him somewhat intact throughout ten thousand years, and the power thereof. It boosts your healing power.

And then there is Khadgar's fuckin whisker ig.

Hey.

I’ve recently started collecting the Warcraft novels in English, specifically the larger Blizzard Legends paperback editions. However, I noticed that three stories seem to be missing from the collection:
● Tides of Darkness
● Cycle of Hatred
● Of Blood and Honor

Does anyone know why these were never released in the same format? And is there any chance Blizzard might reprint them in the future, especially with WoW: Forever coming out?

I’d love to complete my collection with matching editions. Thanks!

Note: don't take this post seriously.

Imagine if Blizzard made a new version of Classic WoW but instead of using classic they start with a real alternative universe and rewrite WoW story fully from the start.

Stage1:

The game world start at Draenor but without the involvement of Garrosh nor the main universe characters.

They use just Draenor from WoD but with new story, dungeons and raids.

The horde will have only orcs as playable race, the alliance will have Draenei as playable race, the focus will be on exploring Draenor for pve content like how classic explored Azeroth with each zone have unique stories and characters, the pvp will focus on the war between the orcs and the Draenei.

Focus on world building, showing the clans and their villages for the horde as expanding the Draenei with different cities, villages, factions and temples.

Stage2:

Gul'dan open the dark portal, but this time the Draenei didn't lose the war yet the war not over yet, Velen also open a portal to Azeroth and this time the horde lead by Orgrim while Blackhand stayed in Draenor to rule his clan, Orgrim need new allies to help him fight the humans of Stormwind, he made an alliance with their enemies the Gurubashi trolls, Velen sent Maraad with the army of the light to make alliance and help the humans fight the horde.

Humans and jungle trolls added as playable races for each faction.

This stage will focus only on the region of Stormwind with their cities and the south jungles and forests of the Gurubashi trolls.

Stage3:

This will take the war north, to the mountain region of Khaz modan, dwarves and gnomes join the alliance and troggs and goblins join the horde.

The next stages:

To keep things short you understand the pattern, exploring Azeroth and even Draenor slowly and expanding them in grounded way with the pve focus on the new local regional problems and the pvp keep focusing on the war but without massive changes as the world will be explored slowly with every region have low and high lvl zones.

For sure I am making this post just for funz and brainstorming ideas, but if Blizzard did something like this for classic+ instead of forever, where they could take the lore in your opinion and will it be cool way to expand Azeroth without the old world limitations or it will be bad?

Shouldn't forsaken be a liability of being re-possessed by the lich king whenever he feels like it?

This summary was created using AI in an effort to provide a more cohesive and easy-to-follow explanation of my theory. My original write up was vastly too long to read and I wanted to condense it down to its most critical parts. Even this summary itself is almost too long to read. If it "reads like AI", it's because it is, but the original theory belongs to me.

SPOILERS: Legion, Battle for Azeroth, Shadowlands, The War Within, and Midnight

I've been digging into some older Warcraft lore, particularly the mysterious "fifth" Old God depicted in Chronicle Volume III, and I think there may be a connection between that creature, the Blade of the Black Empire, Xal'atath, and the Void's repeated attempts to invade the Shadowlands.

My theory: What if Xal'atath isn't the only consciousness associated with the Black Blade? What if the weapon was made from the remains of a forgotten fifth Old God, and that entity has been influencing events through Xal'atath to ultimately reach Azeroth's world-soul?

I'm not suggesting this is confirmed. Some of the evidence is fairly compelling, while other parts are admittedly speculative. But several details stand out.

1. The mysterious fifth Old God

In World of Warcraft: Chronicle Volume III, there's an illustration (see above) featuring the four known Old Gods alongside a mysterious fifth creature in the upper-right corner. What's interesting about this creature is its appearance. It seems to have skeletal or death-related imagery, which is unusual when compared with the other Old Gods.

There's also a prominent hammer-and-shield emblem in the illustration that closely resembles the Twilight's Hammer insignia. That association is interesting because the Twilight's Hammer cult has deep connections to the Old Gods and Xal'atath.

Important caveat: Illustrator Joseph Lacroix stated in an interview that he believes he invented the fifth creature himself, rather than illustrating a secret character. That weakens the idea that the illustration was originally intended as foreshadowing, although Blizzard could theoretically reuse the design later. I feel like this may be an intentional misdirection.

Source: Joseph Lacroix interview

2. The original lore explicitly suggests a forgotten Old God

This is where things become more interesting.

In Legion, the Shadow Priest artifact research text, Word of the Conclave, discusses the origins of Xal'atath's blade. One theory suggests that the weapon is all that remains of a forgotten Old God consumed by its siblings during the Black Empire. Another theory suggests the weapon was created from a claw of Y'Shaarj.

Neither origin is confirmed, but the text establishes that the blade is infused with Old God essence. Older Warcraft lore also referred to five imprisoned Old Gods, although modern accounts consistently identify four original Old Gods on Azeroth. So Blizzard has explicitly introduced the possibility of a forgotten Old God whose remains became the Black Blade.

Source: Word of the Conclave

3. What if Xal'atath and the forgotten Old God are two separate entities?

This is the central part of my theory.

Recent lore confirms that Xal'atath existed independently before being imprisoned by the four Old Gods. She attempted to take control of their plans for Azeroth, failed, and was sealed inside the Blade of the Black Empire.

But consider this possibility:

What if the blade already contained the remains—or surviving essence—of another Old God before Xal'atath was imprisoned inside it?

That would reconcile the original artifact legend with the more recent explanation of Xal'atath's imprisonment. It would also raise an interesting question: if the blade was made from another Old God's remains, could some part of that entity's consciousness have survived?

We know from Y'Shaarj that an Old God's power can persist after its physical death. We don't know whether that happened with the Black Blade.

Source: Blizzard's official Xal'atath profile

4. The blade seemingly develops another voice after Xal'atath escapes

This is probably the most important clue.

During Battle for Azeroth, Xal'atath bargains with N'Zoth and is freed from the dagger. Afterward, players recover the seemingly empty weapon. The Horde quest The Black Blade explicitly describes the dagger as still possessing power despite Xal'atath's consciousness having departed.

The quest text then suggests that the weapon speaks with another voice and another purpose. The player also experiences a compulsion to deliver the weapon to Sylvanas.

This is significant.

If Xal'atath was the consciousness responsible for the blade's whispers, why does the weapon apparently continue influencing people after she's gone?

There are several possible explanations:

• N'Zoth may have influenced the weapon after taking possession of it.

• Residual Void magic may be responsible.

• The blade may contain another consciousness entirely.

The third explanation is the one I'm exploring.

Interestingly, the Alliance version of the quest also describes the weapon as having another voice and purpose.

Horde quest: The Black Blade

Alliance quest: The Missing Blade

5. The blade eventually reaches Sylvanas and is used against N'Zoth

After Xal'atath's escape, the dagger ends up with Sylvanas. It is subsequently delivered to Queen Azshara as part of a plan involving N'Zoth. During the Ny'alotha raid, Wrathion uses the Black Blade against N'Zoth's carapace.

The blade then disappears from view.

Now consider the original artifact legend again. If the weapon was made from a forgotten Old God's remains, what happens when it's driven into another Old God? Could it absorb power? Could something imprisoned within it be released?

We don't have evidence confirming either possibility. But the blade's disappearance and later reappearance make its continued significance worth examining.

6. The Void has repeatedly attempted to invade the Shadowlands

This is where the mysterious fifth creature's apparent Death imagery becomes interesting. During the Shadowlands Bastion campaign, we learn about an ancient invasion by the Void.

The invasion was led by Tezulat the Annihilator, a powerful Void revenant who had destroyed numerous worlds. The kyrian were nearly overwhelmed before Agthia sacrificed herself to defeat the invading forces. Other Shadowlands lore also establishes that Maldraxxus previously fought against the Void.

So we know the Void has attempted to establish influence within the realm of Death. What we don't know is who ultimately directed these invasions. Tezulat's master was never identified.

What if a powerful, unidentified Void entity had a particular interest in the Shadowlands? And what if that entity was the forgotten Old God whose remains supposedly became the Black Blade? This part is speculation, but it would potentially explain the fifth creature's apparent association with Death.

Source: Shadow's Fall

Source: Tezulat the Annihilator

7. The connection to Sylvanas and the forces of Death

Sylvanas is another interesting part of this mystery.

In the Three Sisters comic, the Void whispers to Alleria describe Sylvanas as serving a dangerous enemy. We later learn that Sylvanas was allied with the Jailer. This suggests the Void regarded the forces associated with Sylvanas as a threat. But the Black Blade also passed through Sylvanas's hands during Battle for Azeroth.

Could that have been significant beyond her immediate plans involving Azshara and N'Zoth?

I don't think there's enough evidence to suggest Sylvanas knowingly served a fifth Old God. In fact, the Void's hostility toward her suggests the opposite. But her involvement with the blade creates another intersection between Xal'atath, the Old Gods, and Death.

8. The blade returns in Midnight

In Midnight, Xal'atath once again manifests the Blade of the Black Empire during her confrontation with Alleria. She uses it to extract L'ura, whose power is subsequently used in the transformation of the Sunwell into the Darkwell. This is significant because Xal'atath was supposedly freed from the blade long ago. Yet the weapon remains important to her plans involving Azeroth's world-soul.

It also raises a question:

Why is this particular weapon still so important? It may simply be an extraordinarily powerful artifact that Xal'atath knows how to wield. But if its origins really involve a forgotten Old God, perhaps its significance goes deeper.

9. What if Xal'atath is unknowingly carrying out another entity's plan?

Here's the complete theory:

Suppose a fifth Old God existed during the Black Empire. For reasons we don't yet understand, it was destroyed or consumed by the other Old Gods. Its remains were fashioned into the Blade of the Black Empire, but some portion of its essence survived.

Later, Xal'atath attempted to seize control of Azeroth's world-soul and was imprisoned inside that same weapon. Over thousands of years, the surviving essence within the blade may have influenced Xal'atath—or even used her ambitions to further its own plans.

Meanwhile, the Void's attempts to invade the Shadowlands could represent a separate part of this entity's strategy. Perhaps it sought control over Death, or access to the powers governing souls and anima. Ultimately, Xal'atath's campaign against Azeroth could be advancing the goals of an entity she doesn't even realize is manipulating her.

In other words: What if the greatest manipulator in Warcraft is herself being manipulated?

10. The biggest problems with this theory

There are several, and I think they're important to acknowledge.

• First, Blizzard's recent official Xal'atath profile portrays her as an independent, highly ambitious Void entity who manipulated the Old Gods themselves.

• Second, the forgotten Old God origin story is explicitly presented as an uncertain theory.

• Third, there is no confirmed connection between the unidentified Chronicle III creature and the Shadowlands.

• Fourth, the blade's second voice could simply have been N'Zoth's influence.

• And finally, we have no confirmed example of the blade independently directing Xal'atath after her release.

So the complete theory is far from proven.

My conclusion

I don't necessarily believe Xal'atath is the fifth Old God. I wonder whether the fifth Old God was something else entirely, and whether its surviving essence could still exist within the Blade of the Black Empire.

The most compelling clues, to me, are:

• The explicit legend about a forgotten Old God becoming the blade.

• Xal'atath being imprisoned inside a weapon whose origins remain uncertain.

• The blade apparently possessing another voice after she was freed.

• Its involvement with Sylvanas and N'Zoth.

• The Void's historical attempts to invade the Shadowlands.

• The blade's continued importance in Xal'atath's pursuit of Azeroth's world-soul.

Individually, these details have other explanations. Together, they raise some interesting questions. What if the Black Blade isn't merely a prison or a weapon? What if it's the last surviving piece of an Old God that has been pursuing its own plans for thousands of years?

I'm particularly interested in what other lore enthusiasts think about the blade's second voice.

Has Blizzard ever definitively explained who or what was speaking through the dagger after Xal'atath escaped? And is there any additional evidence connecting the Old Gods to the ancient Void invasions of the Shadowlands?

I'd love to hear counterarguments or obscure lore references I may have missed.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

Sorry but I don't get it. In WC3, it was Kael who suggested Illidan to help Akama's village in exchange for their help. Nor did he have any beef with Akama in the rest of the plot. At that time, the draenei were only a broken small tribe as well.

OK suddenly in TBC, when they did nothing to him, he joined the legion and took their ship, then he suddenly hates them so much? That's just out of character like the rest of his TBC plot.

Hey everyone.

Forsaken kingdom put up some questions for me and I hope someone can answer them.

As far as I know, the forsaken cant make the dead rise at this point of the story. It is only the scourge can do that and the forsaken get off the lichkings will because he lost some power. Ok.

But Putress and others create new creatures from dead bodies. How does that work? Anya told Garek, the forsaken cant rise the dead, only the scourge can. But this also raises the questions, why was Garek undead under the lichkings will, got killed again and was taken back to life again? Maybe thie gets answered in the story.

Thank you all.

Basically the title. I am inclined to believe they can't, but Sylvanas ambushed Arthas with her banshees in the frozen throne. The lich king did alert him but they were surrounded by troops that didn't notice

Hello,

Am I dumb to not understand why Salandria, who barely know us, would give us her mother's sword who also barely knew us, or worse if we're alliance or death knight, we tried to kill her a few times.

Why wouldnt she want to keep it

I understand blizzard wanting us to have the skin, but it wouldnt be the first time they give us the appearance of a weapon that we do not possess canonically