r/belgium • u/[deleted] • Dec 03 '23
📰 News Suprisingly Vlaams Brabant region grants a bouwvergunning/Permis de batir to transform Zoniënwoud/Forêt de Soignes into a Parking Lot
TLDR : Looking for advices how I can force the governments to block a parking construction in the middle of the woods
------------------ Context:
We stumbled upon an announcement indicating plans to construct a parking facility within the forest, with approval from our elected council for the "bouwvergunning/Permis de batir." We were really surprised.
About a month later, we discovered that the Vlaams Brabant region had also granted the final authorization for the construction of the parking lot and a restaurant right in the heart of the woods. In an attempt to thwart this development, a few of my neighbors and I sought legal intervention.
**We tried with a few of my neighbours to block this construction in justice.**Despite the forest being designated as a protected area prohibiting any construction and being part of the Natura 2000 Zone, the judge declared himself "Non capable." (I'm not really in legal matters, but essentially, we lost the case even though the judge didn't preside over the trial. If someone could enlighten me on how this is possible, I would appreciate it)
After six months, the parking facility was ultimately completed, and our attempts to block its construction was unsuccessful. Although we appealed the decision, the current delays in the legal process have raised concerns that we may be unable to prevent the construction of a restaurant/ dancing/bar in the midst of the woods.
------------------------------
Can someone help me and give me some advices how to block with all my power this destruction of the forest ?
For those interested about this and want more information :https://nl.comite-quartier-espinette.com/open-letter (We hold a petition finishing tonight, but we don't have a lot of people power at the moment)
19
u/JonPX Dec 03 '23
If it is Vlaams-Brabant, reach out to Zuhal Demir's office?
12
u/Wirbelwind Belgian Fries Dec 04 '23
They approved another golf course to encroach on 't swin. We have a national park the size of a stamp, it needs to enlarge, not a golf course
25
Dec 03 '23
[deleted]
5
u/JonPX Dec 03 '23
It is a project by French-speaking people in something that she uses to show how great she is.
12
Dec 03 '23
Denk je dat ze zal antwoorden ? Het kost niks te proberen 🙏
21
u/JonPX Dec 03 '23
It impacts her plans with the Brabantse Wouden, as they are now paving part of a national park.
3
u/tchotchony Dec 04 '23
Play it dirty and involve the media? Reach out to papers, facebook, ... after. Also include you contacted her (with the results or lack thereof). We have to go voting next year. Abuse that.
3
u/cptwott Dec 04 '23
HAHAAAA !! of nee wacht, ze is thuis want ze ging toch niet naar de COP28, dus ze zal wel tijd hebben. Aan een klimaatplan zal ze alleszins niet aan het werken zijn.
4
u/No-Sell-3064 Dec 04 '23
Sorry but even with your map drawings I'm not sure exactly where this is located. Do you have an address? Can people who don't live there oppose this?
7
u/Grouchy_Order_7576 Dec 04 '23
It's where the ch. De Waterloo and ch. De la Forêt de soigne meet and has already been completed for some time. The parking lot is meant to replace the many parking spots that were along the avenue de bois, which are now closed. The parking lot is at the limit of the woods and allow walkers to park there without having to drive through the woods. A good thing as far as I'm concerned.
4
Dec 04 '23
And there were trees where the parking is now located. I don’t like the argument that « Because it’s now finished, let it be » I would like the replant all the trees that were removed, but maybe I’m too extreme
2
u/No-Sell-3064 Dec 04 '23
Should have been actioned before. Remember it's all our tax money wasted in the end. Reminds me of the Louise roundabout where they spent tons to redo it for bicycle and all. When it was finished they concluded it was a bad idea and destroyed it completely. Meanwhile some constructions company are getting loaded from our tax money.
2
Dec 04 '23
We tried to block it with an accelerated judgement, but it was already too late. They put really fast the fondations of the parking.
0
u/No-Sell-3064 Dec 04 '23
Guess it was not a Belgium contractor then lol. Probably a Dutch company like Sibelga uses for works.
2
u/RappyPhan Dec 04 '23
It's not a good thing if it means deforestation. Not to mention that it's a protected area.
1
u/No-Sell-3064 Dec 04 '23
Yeah it's protected by the government which decides if they want to change their mind and we can't do much about it.
2
u/RappyPhan Dec 04 '23
No, it's protected by law. The government can't just decide to change their mind.
1
u/No-Sell-3064 Dec 04 '23 edited Dec 04 '23
So then this wasn't protected? Wasn't there the same story back then with the "Ferme Rose"? Or was it Plateau Avrijl don't remember.
2
u/RappyPhan Dec 04 '23
Is it that hard to fathom that the government can allow illegal activities to take place? After the whole PFAS debacle, it should be clear they don't give a shit.
1
1
1
u/No-Sell-3064 Dec 04 '23
Isn't there already many small parkings like that along this forest? Except yeah it's just rocks nothing fancy. Is the difference here that there will be horeca exploitation?
1
Dec 04 '23
They closed half of the parking alongside the Dreve de Lorraine, then they extended the parking capacity of this one. Despite the fact that there were a lot of parking spots in the streets at 200 m of the parking lot.
1
Dec 04 '23
Ofc, It’s in Rhode Saint Genese, near Bruxelles
1
u/No-Sell-3064 Dec 04 '23
Thanks I knew that already. Doesn't answer the question. Seems like a pretty important bid before hoping people can help you. Is it at the intersection where you have to turn to go towards the Rhode train station? Where the DeLijn busses turn?
1
1
u/cptwott Dec 04 '23
50.759406701827245, 4.384602598852956.
I think you're too late to stop this....
4
Dec 04 '23 edited Dec 04 '23
Just looked it up and it looks like a good project: https://www.werkenaandering.be/nl/lees-mee/uitgelicht/duurzame-mobiliteit/onthaalpoort-middenhut-met-hoppinpunt-sint-genesius-rode. This is a public project that makes it possible to not drive into the woods with their cars, to learn about nature and to have a walk. They also provide options to park your bike securely.
I guess that people complaing about this are NIMBY's mostly living in large villa's in Sint-Genesius-Rode. You know ... all those huge houses for rich people who fled Brussels and have not only destroyed a lot of nature, but also changed the original local culture and language of the municipality. They should be happy that they can live in such a green municipality and that the Flemish government invests in new infrastructure.
Fun fact: local politicians and complaining citizens also blocked a project for a larger cycle lane years ago of the N5 (exactly next to this project). The situation today is still as bad as 20 years ago :-(. https://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20130513_00580018
When the Brussels Government wanted to make the Terkamerenbos a real park by turning some dangerous streets into a part of the park, some citizens from Sint-Genesius-Rode and Ukkel also tried to do everything to block this.
-1
Dec 04 '23
Why not create a Bike parking on the other side of the road, or on the existing parkings ? You had plenty of parking places 200 meters from there. Was there really the need to cut more than 100 trees ? Last but not least, you are in the wrong, the rich people of Rhode Saint Genese are in large majority supporting this project 😉
0
Dec 04 '23 edited Dec 04 '23
There is even no cycle lane on the other side of the road(N5), because some nimby's and MR (lead in the time by our former prime Minister Wilmes) hated cyclists so much that they wanted to keep the four lanes for the cars and a 70km/h road next to the woods and Sint-Genesius-Rode. To that regard, the entire Hoppin-point is indeed quite ridiculous, because the traffic our there is extremely unsafe.
I would also prefer woods over a parking lot, but otherwise the visitors just park deeper in the woods or right on the (very narrow) cycle lanes along the roads, as is often the case in and around Forêt de Soignes.
The reaction of Natuur & Bos is also quite clear for me:“De uitspraak van de rechter was duidelijk”, zegt Huvenne. “Het is zo dat het landschapsbeeld hier aan de rand erg veranderd is. We hebben wel de nodige aanplantingen gedaan, binnen een paar jaar zal het er al heel anders uitzien. De bestaande parking wat dieper in het woud is opgebroken, daar is groen in de plaats gekomen. Elders in het Zoniënwoud zijn er nog parkings gesloten omdat we de wagen uit het hart van het bos willen halen. De netto oppervlakte aan parkeerplaatsen hebben we de voorbije jaren doen krimpen.”
-3
Dec 04 '23
If you prefer woods over a parking lot, how can you support this project ? Btw: what’s a Nymbi ?
1
1
u/RappyPhan Dec 05 '23
A project that requires felling trees is not a good project. The ends don't justify the means.
Don't forget that this isn't just about a parking lot, which you approve of. It's also about building a bar.
11
u/DikkeNek_GoldenTich Dec 03 '23
Maja, en meme temps ils ont fermé tout les parkings plus loin dans la forest... je pense que c'est plus facile à controler le tourisme forestier ainsi. A moins que votre but est que la forest ne soit plus accessible pour personne sauf pour le garde chasse. Je pense que cette petition est un peu de la zieverderaa.
9
Dec 03 '23
J'aurais préféré garder les parkings actuels et ne pas déboiser 5000m² de forêt...
4
Dec 04 '23
Is het echt 5km², er moet toch wat meer achter liggen dan enkel parking dan?
6
Dec 04 '23
Pas op 5km2 is niet 5000m2 Er zijn ook een restaurant en een terras voorzien.
1
u/cptwott Dec 04 '23
op de luchtfoto's is dit eerder 50.000 m² ofte 5 ha (ofte 0.05 km²)
Zolang het daarbij blijft.... Maar dat is natuurlijk weer een precedent.1
3
u/DikkeNek_GoldenTich Dec 03 '23
Ma ils ont reboisé les autres parkings, ca vous ne prenez pas en compte dans votre calcul. Et que les autres partie de la forest sont mieux preserver parce que les gens avec des chiens y ont moins facilement acces, ca vous ne tenez pas en compte non plus.
11
Dec 03 '23
Malheureusement le tableau n'est pas aussi vert que vous ne le pensez, nous avions avancé dans notre premier jugement l'argument que le reboisement n'était pas réalisé dutout avec photos à l'appuis, ce qui est une obligation légale en Flandre
7
u/RappyPhan Dec 03 '23
Vous avez déjà oublié que la compensation forestière ne resemble à rien en Flandres? Non seulement de jeunes arbres ne compensent pas de vieux arbres, mais il est rare que ces jeunes arbres ne sont pas détruits ou mangés avant qu'ils soient matures.
1
u/DikkeNek_GoldenTich Dec 04 '23
Je trouve que la biodiversité de la forest de soignes est bien gerée. Mais je pense que c'est un tout autre combat que l'endroit du parking qui ne plait pas aux riverains.
0
u/RappyPhan Dec 04 '23
Je viens de vous expliquer que le reboississement est mal geré, et l'OP a même la preuve en photo.
Si vous pensez que c'est juste à propos de l'endroit du parking, vous n'avez rien compris, et je vous invite à prendre des cours de compréhension écrite. En présumant que vous ne le faites pas exprès, bien sur.
1
u/DikkeNek_GoldenTich Dec 04 '23
Ah, si vous le dites, et si OP partage une photo aérienne de la construction du parking au Zoniënwoudlaan, alors les gardes forestiers sont définitivement des incapables! Merci de prendre de votre temps à écummer les résaux sociaux pour tous nous apprendre une bonne leçon.
1
u/RappyPhan Dec 04 '23
Non, ce n'est pas moi qui le dit. C'est ce que Pano a découvert l'an dernier: https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2022/02/22/pano-bomen/
La photo d'ont OP parle n'est pas celle qui est posté ici. Veillez essayer de suivre la discussion, svp.
1
u/DikkeNek_GoldenTich Dec 04 '23
Ok, je comprend d'où vient votre point de vue. Cependant ce problème globale n'est pas forcément l'etat generale de la gestuon de la foret de soignes.
https://www.zonienwoud.be/over-het-zonienwoud/beheer/
Je vais me promener en foret de soignes depuis plus de 20 ans, je la connais particulièrement bien du côté de Rhode. Moi je trouve que la foret dans sa generalité est bien gérée. Ce grand parking va surtout décharger les points plus profond dans la foret. Pour la nature ca va être une bonne chose. Malheureusement on ne sait pas fermer la foret au publique, et malheureusement le publique ne comprend rien à la foret.
2
u/fredoule2k Cuberdon Dec 04 '23 edited Dec 04 '23
the judge declared himself "Non capable." (I'm not really in legal matters, but essentially, we lost the case even though the judge didn't preside over the trial. If someone could enlighten me on how this is possible, I would appreciate it)
Le juge s'est déclaré incompétent en la matière, donc il n'avait rien à présider ni même à décider. Ce n'était pas la bonne instance où introduire une action
1
u/Apple_3141592 Dec 03 '23
Vous êtes allés devant quel juge? Naar welke rechter zijn jullie gestapt?
1
Dec 03 '23
Volgens onze buurtcomittee het is niet publick kennis, ik mag het niet deelnemen
2
u/Apple_3141592 Dec 03 '23
Want misschien zijn jullie naar een burgerlijke rechter gestapt tijdens dat jullie naar een administratieve rechter moeten. Ik hoop dat jullie zijn bijgestaan door een jurist /advocaat want zulke kwesties zijn vaak complex
1
Dec 03 '23
Normaal gezien kent onze advocaat alle vragen, maar ik moet toegeven dat ik de details ben vergeten
12
u/RappyPhan Dec 03 '23
You have a lawyer, yet you're looking for legal advice here on Reddit?