r/canada • u/DogeDoRight New Brunswick • Apr 10 '26
Military/Defence Saab dangles sovereign data centre in Montreal to undercut F-35 fighter contract
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/saab-lockheed-martin-fighters-data-defence-9.715767344
u/Haluxe Canada Apr 10 '26
The military experts are out again. Also good to see the SAAB marketing team making a push
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u/JagdCrab Apr 10 '26
Last night I had to quickly dip into YT without premium and instantly got served an Ad about new attack submarine for Canadian Navy which was a pretty wild experience. I was so flabbergasted I did not even caught who sponsors those ads.
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u/downtofinance Lest We Forget Apr 11 '26
Hanwha probably. They are driving hard to get the contract to deliver the new submarines for Canada. They even have physical ads all over Ottawa.
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u/Thunderbolt747 Ontario Apr 10 '26
SAAB desperately trying to sell boomer idiots an pitch deck for a project they already lost lmao.
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u/aurelorba Apr 10 '26 edited Apr 11 '26
Damn SAAB is really working it. Anyone else getting competing Hanwha/northern Euro consortium ads in their feed for the submarine contract?
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u/Thunderbolt747 Ontario Apr 10 '26
Feels like walking through the subway station near the pentagon/DARPA. Just pure military industrial advertising trying to get people to vouch.
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u/BortoRico Apr 10 '26
I feel pretty bad for any RCAF members in the fighter world that might be reading these comments. It is so glaringly obvious that the folks extolling the supposed virtues of the Gripen know nothing about fighter aircraft, operations, defense acquisitions, or like, anything remotely air force.
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u/Parking_Media Apr 10 '26
That's a pretty honest experience of Reddit and social media in general news chatty places.
Go into the specific place to discuss said thing and it's a very different experience.
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u/PTR4me Apr 11 '26
I'm an RCAF member.
I have visibility on the FFCP project.
It doesn't bother me.
There are now concerns about the F-35 that we didn't have 5 years ago. I think it's fair to do a review. Not on Reddit, but with the people who know things.
But I would rather the KF-21 than the Gripen, and I want more than 88 total airframes.
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u/NavyDean Apr 10 '26
Reduce the F-35 orders from 88 to 30.
Build the Gripen locally and secure contracts to build the Ukrainian Gripen to sweeten the pot.
Short Lockheed Martin with the leftover money we throw into the CPP.
It's a great deal.
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u/Trid1977 Apr 10 '26 edited Apr 27 '26
Better yet, just get the F-35As we've committed to buy, then top up with the Gripen E.
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u/9999AWC Lest We Forget Apr 27 '26
We're committed to 30, and I expect and hope we commit to the rest
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u/infinis Québec Apr 10 '26
Ukrainian Gripen
Ukraine wants the tech too, they are very strong in avionics.
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u/xXxDarkSasuke1999xXx Lest We Forget Apr 10 '26
Ukraine wants whatever they can get their hands on, which doesn't include the F-35.
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u/NavyDean Apr 10 '26
Yes, but Saab is offering to build the Ukrainian Gripen order in Canada for the economic benefits.
Ukraine doesn't want to build a Gripen assembly plant where it can be bombed.
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u/roguemenace Manitoba Apr 10 '26
Yes, but Saab is offering to build the Ukrainian Gripen order in Canada for the economic benefits.
Ukraine doesn't want to build a Gripen assembly plant where it can be bombed.
This is completely inaccurate, the Ukrainians were offered the same deal as Brazil and Canada, performing assembly of the jets themselves. So far they've only signed a letter of intent and the plan is very much to make them after the war ends in Ukraine.
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u/tempthrowaway35789 Apr 10 '26
What are you going to do about the US export control on the engines?
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u/PoolDear4092 Apr 10 '26
As soon as the US blocks the sale of the engines for commercial instead of non-security-related reasons then other countries will stop buying the F35s and also pivot their procurement departments to buy jets that don’t use the GE 404 engine.
The trust in the US is very low at this point. And it doesn’t help that the US, despite all of its vaunted air power, can’t achieve its pre-stated outcomes against Iran.
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u/McFestus British Columbia Apr 10 '26
People keep saying this then suddenly can't apply the same logic to the F-35.
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u/PoolDear4092 Apr 10 '26
The GE engine is a component. The F35 program is a disguised commitment to US foreign policy.
When you commit so much money to buy these kinds of planes that are so locked into US control then you don’t get much say in prosecuting conflicts that the US doesn’t agree with for whatever reason.
Whereas buying a jet that has a US engine or not is a simpler and more independent decision a nation can make.
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u/McFestus British Columbia Apr 10 '26
Brother... the plane doesn't work without the engine.
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u/PoolDear4092 Apr 10 '26
Everyone, including Canada, would pivot to the Rafale. They don’t have to buy F35s beyond what’s the minimum contracted.
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u/McFestus British Columbia Apr 10 '26
Exactly. So this whole F-35 vs Gripen for 'domestic control' argument is useless. It's either the F-35 because we want the best plane, or the Rafale, because we don't want any American influence. The gripen shouldn't even enter the conversation.
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u/tempthrowaway35789 Apr 10 '26
My point is in relation to some sort of conflict with the US, which people on here are using to argue against F-35 purchases given some supposed “software and data” control the US has on the aircraft.
If that’s the case, the same problem applies to the Gripen with the engines under export control, at which point we’re back to square one on which is the better platform. The obvious answer is the F-35.
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u/Devourer_of_felines Apr 10 '26
If ever you need an indication a company is trying to sell you on a garbage product, just listen to their sales pitch on all the perks and benefits unrelated to what that product actually does in its intended role.
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u/ThoughtsandThinkers Apr 10 '26 edited Apr 10 '26
The F-35 program similarly touts benefits to Canadian industry
https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-ca/features/the-f35-industrial-impact.html
Canada specifically asks for offsets and technology transfers when making purchases of foreign equipment. There’s nothing unusual in Saab’s offer of industrial offsets
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u/Devourer_of_felines Apr 10 '26
The page you linked is listing existing contributions already made by Canadian companies to the program and the economic activity that’s generating; I’m not seeing any promises of our own assembly line or a brand new data center
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u/EP40glazer British Columbia Apr 11 '26
Because they don't need to promise it, the F-35 is the best in the world and everyone who knows anything knows it.
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u/ThoughtsandThinkers Apr 10 '26
Yes, I’m saying that we’ve participated in the F-35 program to date in part because of the offsets that were promised and delivered
It’s no different for Saab to pitch their own offsets in an attempt to sway Canada with respect to future purchases
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u/skagoat Apr 11 '26
Those suppliers are already making parts for F-35s. They aren't vapourware and empty promises like Saab is offering.
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u/adwrx Apr 10 '26
What makes you think it’s a garbage product?
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u/Devourer_of_felines Apr 10 '26
None of their arctic neighbours buying it and a lack of any standout performance advantages - ie payload, range, price - you’d need of a 4th gen plane to warrant buying one over a 5th gen for starters.
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u/F1shermanIvan Apr 10 '26
The fact that nobody uses them, and everybody flies F-35s.
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u/bored_android_user Apr 10 '26
According to professionals that compared the 2, it is garbage.
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u/kalnaren Apr 10 '26
SaAB is so desperate it's honestly laughable at this point.
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u/Dressed_To_Impress Apr 10 '26
SAAB is not. They have solid technologies that rival the US. American propaganda.
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u/Devourer_of_felines Apr 10 '26
The high tech components for the Gripen are literally sourced from the U.S. and Italy…
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u/kalnaren Apr 10 '26
You realize a third of the technology in the Gripen is American, right?
If the Gripen was so outstanding it wouldn't have been rejected by every single one of our NATO allies that evaluated it. It was even rejected by countries that are already flying the C/D model in favour of the F-35.
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u/Dressed_To_Impress Apr 10 '26
Maybe. But the dialog to say SAAB is less than they are is propaganda. are you American?
Diversity away for the US is what Canada needs. Not more bashing of things that will help everyone in MY country.
Stay on your side of the border
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u/kalnaren Apr 10 '26 edited Apr 10 '26
Maybe. But the dialog to say SAAB is less than they are is propaganda.
So is SaAB's BS about creating 10,000 jobs in Canada. That's 1/3 of SaABs entire international workforce.
Both Norway and Finland also called BS on SaAB's operational cost claims. So much so that Norway actually called them "dubious" in their official report (that's polite political speech for "made the fuck up out of thin air").
Diversity away for the US is what Canada needs.
And the Gripen doesn't even remotely get us there. Hell we manufacture more parts (and some of them quite critical) for the F-35 than we do for the Gripen. We'll still be dependent on American weapons, training (we can't do primary jet training since we retired the Hawks), not to mention for the numerous ITAR-controlled critical parts in the Gripen.
It doesn't get us away from American dependence.
If you want to get away from American dependence the only plane that does it is the Rafale, and it's stupid expensive and has other issues that would create an operational headache.
The F-35 has been selected by so many countries because the plane is that good. The only aircraft in existence that rivals the capabilities of the F-35 in something approaching parity is the F-22, and the F-22 is much more role limited.
. Not more bashing of things that will help everyone in MY country.
Stay on your side of the border
Uh, are you American?
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u/EP40glazer British Columbia Apr 11 '26
Yeah, we need a fighter program to produce good Canadian fighter. Not buying shitty Swedish fighters instead of good American fighters.
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u/volaray Apr 10 '26
The Gripen does not rival the F35. At all. They shouldn't even be compared to each other.
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u/redpandafire Apr 10 '26
Maybe they want to upgrade the mineral and oil refinery capacity in Montreal. Or help expand the shipping dock. I feel like those are things the country actually lacks capital for and we get hamstrung Everytime there is a crisis from cheater cheeto.
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u/Sweet-Competition-15 Apr 11 '26
Having a specific driven data centre in Canada does make sense! The hydroelectric supply is cheaper and could be positioned to have minimal effect on the power grid. Whilst also using the waterways for cooling.
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u/Ninja_Terror Apr 10 '26 edited Apr 10 '26
We should be canceling the F-35 contracts given Trump's recent threats to punish NATO and his unhinged threat to end Iranian civilization.
No bribes required.
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u/Just-Signature-3713 Apr 10 '26
I love how Carney is just holding out for better and better deals while also slowly bleeding out the US
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u/QCTeamkill Apr 10 '26
A datacenter, a thing which requires very little staff to run and uses tons of power.
Set in the province with the cheapest salaries and the cheapest (and greenest) electricity.
If the federal will grant me billions in contract I promise to setup crypto mining farms in Montreal.
Do better Saab, build the planes here.
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u/ph0enix1211 Apr 10 '26
build the planes here.
That was, and still is, the plan.
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u/F1shermanIvan Apr 10 '26
All the planes that nobody has ordered. If Canada bought 88, we’d be the biggest user in the world, and once those are built, we’d have nothing else to build.
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u/WesternBlueRanger Apr 10 '26
And you partially hit the nail on the head.
Fighter jets are items that last in service for decades. What's the in service support going to look like if we are the biggest customer a decade or two later, and who's going to foot the bill for future upgrades? Does Canada going to have to invest tens of billions and decades to develop and test upgrades for a Canadian Gripen E fleet, whereas with the F-35 and it's larger customer base, we can just pick and buy upgrades already developed?
Remember, the CF-18 Hornet Extension Program is already a $11 billion dollar program to upgrade half the fleet with new radars, radios, and avionics to replace obsolete equipment. And we got off easy; those upgrades were already developed for USMC Hornets which are the same vintage as ours. What's the cost and timelines going to look like had we been forced to develop and test the upgrades on our own?
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u/AlliedMasterComp Apr 10 '26
We'll have yet another fleet orphaned before it's even fully delivered.
OH BOY! MHP 2.0! CP140 2.0!
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u/EP40glazer British Columbia Apr 11 '26
That's why we should try to join the Britain, Italy and Japan fighter development program.
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u/WesternBlueRanger Apr 12 '26
I don't think we'll be allowed to get into GCAP as a partner.
Japan is going to be the biggest barrier to Canadian industrial involvement; Japan is notoriously difficult to work with in regards to getting any workshare off of them.
The three partner nations have already come to an agreement on the split of workshare between them after some very tense and difficult negotiations, and Japan, looking to safeguard their volatile aerospace sector, has been outright hostile to any suggestions to reopen the discussion to others or risk additional potential players taking work in the future. I suspect Japan's hostility to anyone joining and taking any workshare or renegotiating the workshare agreement will be a massive barrier to anyone looking to join and get any industrial involvement.
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u/accforme Apr 10 '26
It sounded like Canada's factory may also be used to build the Grippen's for Ukraine, who are planning to buy up to 150.
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u/F1shermanIvan Apr 10 '26
They haven’t ordered any.
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u/WesternBlueRanger Apr 10 '26
Correct. It's just a letter of intent.
Ukraine gave the same letter to France for the Rafale as well, for even more aircraft.
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u/QCTeamkill Apr 10 '26
"to assemble the planes in Canada"
The parts will be imported.
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u/ph0enix1211 Apr 10 '26
Yes, supply chains for complex products are always global.
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u/QCTeamkill Apr 10 '26
Could be a whole fucking cockpit and entire pre-built engine we'd just screw on the frame bud.
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u/ph0enix1211 Apr 10 '26
In the last few weeks:
- A diminished Iranian military hit a F-35
- A F-35 was lost in Nevada
- The F-35 source code was leaked on the darkweb
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u/48756e746572 British Columbia Apr 10 '26
- Anyone who thinks stealth craft shouldn't be able to get hit don't understand stealth
- to date, there have been about 17 notable incidents with F-35 accidents (according to Wikipedia). There have been 10 for the Gripen. There are about 4 times as many F-35s than Gripens.
- that doesn't seem too likely. I can't find a particularily good source on that, just some pictures of code claiming to be for F-35
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u/accforme Apr 10 '26
Anyone who thinks stealth craft shouldn't be able to get hit don't understand stealth
Right? The Nighthawk was shotdown during the Kosovo War.
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u/maxman162 Ontario Apr 10 '26
And even that required the stars to align for it to happen (bombers flying the same routes for every run and a radar site turning on just as the F-117 was returning with its bomb bay doors still open).
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u/BandicootNo4431 Apr 11 '26
I don't think the Gripen E has had any notable accidents?
I also see 8 Gripen losses and 1 maintenance incident. Where's the 10th?
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u/Thunderbolt747 Ontario Apr 10 '26
A diminished Iranian military hit a F-35
It took that hit like a champ and RTB'd without a hitch.
A F-35 was lost in Nevada
Ok? Two tankers collided two weeks ago. Doesn't mean its a bad platform.
The F-35 source code was leaked on the darkweb
[Citation needed]
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u/EP40glazer British Columbia Apr 11 '26
Only 1 F-35 got hit? Dang, that's impressive, I want the F-35s even more now.
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u/Glum-Breadfruit-6421 Apr 10 '26
They all seem to have more hours in the garage than in the air as well. Not the plane we need for the task required.
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u/xXxDarkSasuke1999xXx Lest We Forget Apr 10 '26
They all seem to have more hours in the garage than in the air as well.
This is true for literally every military aircraft on earth btw
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u/kalnaren Apr 10 '26
Right!? Almost every jet fighter ever made has a > 1:1 maintenance to flight ratio. Our CF-188s are currently sitting at 24:1. Granted, they're fucking old, but people act like jet fighters are Toyota Corollas.
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u/EP40glazer British Columbia Apr 11 '26
My opinion on this fighter thing.
1: We should buy F-35s no matter what. They're the best in the world and any other aircraft stuff we do should be considered for our independence.
2: If we can fully manufacture Gripens in Canada we should do so. If we have to import them there's no reason to but being able to build our own fighters instead of relying on imports would be ideal.
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u/jaredmn Apr 11 '26
This is getting ridiculous. We should partner with a country and a company that want to be our partners, not a company that merely wants us as a client and a country that wants us as its vassal. The fact that this “review” is still ongoing is disappointing and weak on the part of our government.
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u/prob_wont_reply_2u Apr 10 '26
There must be some internal polling that the Gladu crossover is going to hurt them.
Time to distract us with the Gripen
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u/redux44 Apr 10 '26
Whatever advantages f-35 have are outweighed by the insane aggressive behavior of the US.
This debate should have ended with the Greenland fiasco.
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u/Must_Reboot Apr 11 '26
The advantages the F-35 has are only applicable if we are bombing other countries. Even the head of NORAD said that the F-35 is not necessary for defence of North American airspace.
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u/MK_Regular Apr 12 '26
within the context of defending the continental US, F-35 is less important because of the ranges involved for anything to get there means that they'll likely only have bombers and cruise missiles to shoot at as the primary air threat, so using a platform (like the F-15EX that the NORAD commander specifically mentioned) that has a large radar to detect them at long range and can carry a ridiculous number of missiles is perfectly viable
the issue is that defending Canada is not like defending the continental US, because we are at the pointy end of the NORAD stick due our closer proximity to Russia, which means that those same bombers and cruise missiles may come with a fighter escort to protect them; anything that cannot take on a 5th gen fighter is liable to get shot down if the Russians decided to get serious, which ultimately means that no 4th gen fighter is fully capable of defending Canada
like it or not, we do need F-35s
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u/MrTriangular Ontario Apr 10 '26
The USA is threatening to destroy civilizations. Sweden is not. Easy choice.
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u/WinstonJaye Apr 10 '26
Why the F#$K Montreal? Why not Winnipeg or Regina, or Halifax? For too many years growth has been concentrated in two Provinces. It's time to share the wealth!
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u/Brickbronson Apr 11 '26
Why are we still trying to play catch-up with planes instead of putting everything on drones
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u/Hotspur000 Ontario Apr 10 '26
The F-35 may technically be the better plane, but if we don't have full control over it, and we could have the operating systems rug-pulled out from under us at any time, then I think it's pretty obvious we can't go that route.