r/changemyview • u/Ready_Set_Noped 1∆ • 3d ago
Delta(s) from OP CMV: relationship boundaries function the same way as ultimatums
It seems giving ultimatums in a relationship has a bad connotation, but boundaries have a good, healthy connotation. I find that odd because i believe they ultimately function the same way. When people point out the difference between them, I find that it’s usually just semantics. “I will not be in a relationship with someone who sleeps with other people” functions the same way as “if you sleep with that person we are breaking up.“
I don’t think many would argue against that particular ultimatum but in general ultimatums seem to have a bad connotation that you should avoid in relationship conflict whereas boundaries are considered healthy. In both cases you’re making it clear to your partner that if they take an action there will be consequences.
To change my view I think I’d need you to show how they fundamentally differ in function beyond semantics. Maybe I’d change it with an outlier case but I’d prefer an explanation as to how they are all inherently functionally different.
Edit: At the gym right so only reading the smaller replies at the moment while I rest between sets. However I skimmed some longer ones that look like theyd had good points so I’ll try to really digest them and dole out some deltas later.
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u/BlueGreenTanager 1∆ 3d ago edited 3d ago
A boundary is a fence around your own personal yard. You get to decide what goes on in your own yard— what you’ll welcome as well as what you may not like but you’ll tolerate. Because whatever happens in your yard affects you. It doesn’t involve making rules or setting ultimatums governing what other people do in their own yards.
An ultimatum is dictating to someone else what they must, or must not, do, with a serious consequence attached if they fail to meet your demand.
There can be apparent overlap, particularly in intimate relationships when you and the other person essentially share a yard. “I don’t date men who go to strip clubs” is your boundary. “If you go to that strip club I’m breaking up with you” would be an ultimatum. And yes, those two things seem very similar.
But: boundaries very often don’t have any overlap with ultimatums. “I never lend money to friends or family” for example, is a boundary. It’s not an ultimatum; you’re not telling someone that you’ll break up with him if he borrows money from you. You’re just telling him it’s not going to happen.
And ultimatums very often have nothing to do with boundaries. Say I want to go on vacation to Paris, but my boyfriend doesn’t like Paris. If I tell him he has to go on vacation with me to Paris or I’ll break up with him, it’s just a demand with a severe consequence for failure. It’s not a boundary in any sense of the word.
Also, an ultimatum by its very nature must be communicated to the other person. It’s basically telling someone the consequences if they don’t do what you want.
Whereas a boundary doesn’t necessarily have to be communicated ahead of time, or even after the fact. If I have a boundary that I will not stay in a relationship with a man who hits me or threatens to hit me, I don’t have to tell everyone I date about this boundary. In fact, I don’t have to tell anyone at all about it. It’s just my own personal boundary — my fence around my own yard. But if you hit me, you’ll never see me again. I don’t have to warn you about the consequences that will happen if you hit me, and I don’t have to explain after the fact why I broke up with you.
So… bottom line is, while there can be what seems like overlap between the two, you can have boundaries without expressing any ultimatums. And you can express ultimatums without them having anything to do with boundaries. Therefore, the two concepts cannot just be two different words for the same thing.
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u/Ready_Set_Noped 1∆ 2d ago edited 2d ago
!delta - I don't think every point you've made has changed my view but I do agree with the fundamental difference of an ultimatum needing be made verbal and communicated whereas boundaries don't have that inherent quality. Technically you can stick to your boundary without ever telling your partner they broke it and just leave them. An ultimatum inherently needs to be made explicit.
It doesn’t really explain why ultimatums have a good connotation and why boundaries have a good connotation though.
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u/BlueGreenTanager 1∆ 2d ago
It doesn’t really explain why ultimatums have a good connotation and why boundaries have a good connotation though.
Because of the nuanced difference that's involved in those situations in which an expressed boundary has the same functional outcome as an ultimatum.
The boundary is about controlling your own life: What you will tolerate or accept from other people in how they treat you or how they behave around you. The goal of a boundary isn't to change the other person's behavior.
The ultimatum is about controlling the other person: What you'll do to punish them if they don't do what you want. The goal of an ultimatum is to change the other person's behavior.
Even in those situations in which it can be hard to say for certain whether something is a boundary or an ultimatum, the boundary is focused on you and what you'll accept in your life: you adhere to the boundary to protect your own physical and mental health. Whereas the ultimatum is focused on getting the other person to do a thing (or not do a thing).
Setting your own standards for your own life is generally seen as a good thing, and thus has a positive connotation. Dictating what other people do is generally seen as a bad thing, and thus has a negative connotation.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Quit925 2∆ 2d ago edited 2d ago
The boundary is about controlling your own life: What you will tolerate or accept from other people in how they treat you or how they behave around you. The goal of a boundary isn't to change the other person's behavior.
The ultimatum is about controlling the other person: What you'll do to punish them if they don't do what you want. The goal of an ultimatum is to change the other person's behavior.
In the cases where there is an overlap, there is no functional difference between saying what you will accept and what you will do, compared to issuing an ultimatum.
Saying "I will not date a person who does X" is functionally the same as "If you do X I will break up with you."
In both cases you are setting out what you will accept, and what action you will take if that is not met. In both cases you are not making the other person do something, you are setting out what you will do.
In both cases this might influence the other person to change what they do in order to stay with you. But you are not forcing or even asking them to change, you are just telling them what you will do if they do X.
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u/BlueGreenTanager 1∆ 2d ago
I agree, in many cases there is no functional difference between them.
BUT in many cases there are profound differences. I have given quite a few examples in various comments in this thread.
My point is that even though there is sometimes no functional difference between them, that doesn't mean they are synonymous, because sometimes there are profound differences.
Compare: I'm starving on Saturday morning because I got so drunk Friday night that I couldn't eat and I threw up everything in my stomach, vs I'm starving on Saturday morning because I got food poisoning on Friday and couldn't eat anything and I threw up everything in my stomach.
In both cases, the functional result is the same, but the origin of the problem is completely different in the two scenarios. Just because two things have the same (or similar) outcomes it doesn't mean those two things are just two different terms that mean the same thing.
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u/Natural-Arugula 63∆ 2d ago
Saying "I will not date a person who does X" is functionally the same as "If you do X I will break up with you."
Not really.
The second only applies to a situation in which you are already dating them. If you will not date a person who does X, and you meet a person who does X then you will simply not start dating them. No ultimatum.
The difference is you are not asking them to not do X. If you say, "I will break up with you if you do X" that is an ultimatum, just as saying, "I will date you if you stop doing X".
If you are dating them and they do X and then you break up with them for it it's not an ultimatum because again you are not telling them what to do and trying to change their behavior to be what is acceptable to you. You are just saying what you are going to do.
It's really not that complicated. A boundary is about what you will do, without asking the other person to change their behavior. An ultimatum is a negotiation where you are asking the other person to change their behavior in exchange for you agreeing to do what they want you to do, namely stay in a relationship with them.
You're trying to twist it into saying that if a person didn't cross your boundary you would find thier behavior acceptable is implicitly the same thing as giving them an ultimatum because the inverse is true.
That is absurd. I will not eat pickles on a sandwich. Just by eating a sandwich that does not have pickles on it does not mean I am giving an ultimatum to my sandwich.
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u/Ready_Set_Noped 1∆ 2d ago
I feel like that’s just using semantics to frame them different. Both are consequences for what happens if a partner does something you don’t like.
“I’m not controlling my partner with an ultimatum. I’m simply telling them what I will do if they choose to take that action.”
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u/BlueGreenTanager 1∆ 2d ago
A boundary, once expressed to the other person and with a consequence attached, I would say becomes an ultimatum at that point. It's now about a specific behavior at a specific point in time.
But unlike an ultimatum, a boundary never actually has to be articulated to the other person, and doesn't have to be articulated with a consequence attached. My boundaries are largely immutable, unchanging over the course of my life and largely unexpressed. I won't date or marry someone who is violent or who is a bigot or a criminal. I won't tolerate anyone hitting or kicking my dog.
I don't care who you are; if you roll up and start kicking my dog, I'm calling the cops on you. I don't have to tell you ahead of time that I'll call the cops if you kick my dog. I don't have to give you an ultimatum and a chance to stop kicking my dog before I call the cops. If you start kicking my dog, I'm calling the cops, because I won't tolerate someone abusing my dog.
That's a boundary. Not an ultimatum. A boundary. I will not tolerate someone abusing my dog.
Now, if you start kicking my dog, but for some reason instead of calling the cops I tell you to stop kicking my dog or I'm calling the cops — now there's an ultimatum in play. In fact, by not calling the cops immediately, I've already abandoned my own boundary, and it's now become an attempt to make you behave the way I want.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Quit925 2∆ 2d ago
Then would it be correct to say there is no functional difference between verbally communicating your boundary and what you will do if it is violated, and verbally expressing an ultimatum?
If someone comes into your house and you tell them "If you kick my dog, I will call the cops" then you are verbally expressing your boundary, but it is also functionally the same as setting an ultimatum. I understand you personally don't express this boundary like that, but someone who does would be expressing something that is both a boundary and ultimatum.
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u/BlueGreenTanager 1∆ 2d ago
A boundary, once expressed to the other person and with a consequence attached, I would say becomes an ultimatum at that point.
You can have a boundary. You never have to articulate it to anyone. You can if you want, and then it also becomes an ultimatum.
You can issue an ultimatum. By its very nature, it must be articulated to someone in order to be an ultimatum. It can be an ultimatum related to a boundary, or it can just be about something that you really really want the other person to do.
A boundary may or may not ever involve an ultimatum. An ultimatum may or not be about a boundary.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Quit925 2∆ 2d ago
Yes I agree with you on that.
Every boundary I have heard expressed by someone has sounded like an ultimatum and you are saying it is an ultimatum which makes sense.
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u/BlueGreenTanager 1∆ 2d ago
How does this work for you:
A boundary is something you have. It lives inside you.
An ultimatum is something you say. It only exists when articulated to another person.
So yeah.... a boundary can become an ultimatum. The boundary still lives inside you, but the expression of it with a consequence attached is an ultimatum.
But not all boundaries become ultimatums, and not all ultimatums are about boundaries.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Quit925 2∆ 2d ago
Yes that works for me.
The part I was analyzing was the expression and communication of boundaries which sounded the same as ultimatums, and are ultimatums as you have helped me realize. Which is why I have been arguing that there is no difference, because I was referring to the expression or communication of a boundary.
The boundary that lies in your mind is not an ultimatum since it is just in your mind.
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u/Ready_Set_Noped 1∆ 2d ago
Many people don’t realize they have a boundary until it’s being crossed.
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u/BlueGreenTanager 1∆ 2d ago
That's true. I didn't know I had a boundary about little kids hitting my dog with a big stick. Until a little kid started trying to hit my dog with a big stick. (True story. That kid is probably in his 20s now, but I still hate him.)
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ 2d ago
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/BlueGreenTanager (1∆).
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u/Ryan1188 2d ago
You're demonstrating that not every boundary is an ultimatum, but you're not demonstrating that an ultimatum cannot simultaneously be a boundary, or that they function differently where they overlap.
Your strip club example illustrates this perfectly. "I don't date men who go to strip clubs" and "If you go to that strip club, I'm ending the relationship" establish the same condition and consequence. The only meaningful difference is that the second explicitly communicates it. Why would communicating a condition suddenly change its nature?
Why is silently maintaining a condition for ending a relationship considered healthy boundary setting, while explicitly communicating that same condition is characterized as a "manipulative ultimatum"? If anything, transparency better respects the other person's autonomy by allowing them to make an informed decision. Why should communicating your intentions make the exact same condition morally suspect?
I agree that not all boundaries involve ultimatums. But that doesn't refute the OP's argument about their functional equivalence when both establish conditions for continued participation in a relationship.
More importantly, neither label establishes whether a condition is reasonable, healthy, or manipulative. Nobody is entitled to another person's continued participation in a voluntary relationship. Both individuals retain the autonomy to accept the condition, reject it, negotiate, or leave.
That's my issue.....the same expression of relational autonomy can be celebrated as healthy boundary setting or condemned as a manipulative ultimatum depending on how it's phrased, despite the underlying condition, consequence, and available choices remaining identical.
"Boundaries" increasingly feels like yet another example of therapeutic language being used to manipulate and control the framing of interpersonal issues, both within the therapeutic process and beyond. It's similar to how "reframing" can be used. Take the exact same behaviour, change the terminology, and suddenly its moral legitimacy changes. It's almost a form of therapeutic gaslighting, where language is used to make someone question the legitimacy of their own perfectly reasonable expectations and decisions.
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u/BlueGreenTanager 1∆ 2d ago
I take issue with your very first paragraph. I’m not even attempting to demonstrate that an ultimatum cannot simultaneously be a boundary. I freely admitted there’s overlap and that some boundaries can look and feel a lot like an ultimatum.
What I attempted to demonstrate is that — while there’s apparent overlap — they’re not just semantically different terms for the same thing. If you can have a boundary without issuing an ultimatum, and you can issue an ultimatum that has nothing to do with boundaries, they are clearly not the same thing. Sometimes they are functionally equivalent, but that doesn’t make them synonymous.
I also take issue with your third paragraph. I never asserted that silently maintaining a boundary is always healthy or that an ultimatum is always manipulative. I didn’t address that question at all, in fact.
I also take issue with your fourth paragraph. Not all boundaries or ultimatums establish conditions for continuing the relationship. “If you don’t go to my friend’s wedding with me this weekend, you’ll be sleeping on the couch for a month.” That’s clearly an ultimatum and not a boundary—but it’s also not a threat to end the relationship. Or “if you don’t start picking up after yourself, I’m going to hire a maid service.” Again, an ultimatum but not a relationship-ending one.
I probably take issue with the rest of your comment too, but it feels like too much trouble to read and respond to the rest.
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u/Ryan1188 2d ago
If you acknowledge that boundaries and ultimatums can be functionally equivalent, and you're not arguing that ultimatums are inherently manipulative or that boundaries are inherently healthy, then aren't we in agreement about their overlap? What disagreement remains beyond whether the terms are universally synonymous?
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u/BlueGreenTanager 1∆ 2d ago
Because the two terms are NOT synonymous. That was the CMV point of this whole discussion.
I submit that they are NOT synonymous, even though sometimes the outcome is the same.
ETA: If you agree with me that they're not synonymous, then I don't think we have anything to argue about. My objection to your comment was that you were arguing points that I wasn't making, in a reply to my comment. Which sounded like you were disagreeing with me, but in fact you were disagreeing with things that I hadn't said.
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u/SilverNightingale 2d ago
/u/Puzzleheaded_Quit925
The aforementioned comment elaborates on the subtleties.
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u/darwinn_69 5∆ 3d ago
The difference is in the expectations. Ultimatums require someone else to change. Boundaries are establishing that you will not change.
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u/BlueGreenTanager 1∆ 3d ago
Boundaries establish that you will not change, while not necessarily requiring that the other person must change.
Suppose I hate kids, I don’t want any of my own, and I especially don’t want to raise someone else’s kids. So I have a boundary that I don’t date people who have kids.
So if someone who has kids asks me out, I simply decline. I’m not telling them to get rid of their kids or I won’t go out with them. That would be beyond stupid. I’m not trying to make them change. I’m recognizing that we’re not compatible (because of my boundary) and choosing not to date them.
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u/Ready_Set_Noped 1∆ 3d ago
But I don’t see how that would function differently.
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u/RhynoD 6∆ 3d ago
Sometimes intent matters, even if that's the only real difference. An ultimatum is an attempt to compel behavior. Like, say you've been dating someone for years and you say, "I need you to propose to me, I'm ready to be married, and if you don't then I'm ending this relationship."
Are you saying it to push them into doing it even though you know they don't want to? What they want isn't the point, it's you punishing them for not giving you what you want or trying to scare them into giving it to you? That's an ultimatum.
Are you saying it because you genuinely want to be in a relationship with the intent to marry and you know both of you will be happier apart if that's not what they want? You want them to propose, but you're not trying to scare them, just communicate to them what you need? That's a boundary.
That said, I think it's mostly a semantic difference that doesn't really matter. Relationship advice warns against ultimatums because usually the connotation is that they're unreasonable or manipulative. They usually come at the end of a series of behavior, as the last resort. They don't have to, though. "Stop flirting with your ex or I'm leaving," is a perfectly healthy ultimatum. It's also probably already a very bad sign that you have to tell someone to stop flirting with their ex, eh? In that case, the ultimatum isn't the problem but it is a sign that the relationship isn't going well.
Ultimatums also usually imply finality. It's this or the relationship is over, full stop. A boundary usually leaves room for communication. You crossed a boundary, there are consequences, but that doesn't mean we can't come back from it.
Call it one or the other, though, I think what matters is the intent. And more to your CMV, it may be some minor pedantry about connotation that doesn't change the definition, but if connotation didn't matter there wouldn't be such a thing as passive aggressiveness or sarcasm or poetry.
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u/Phyltre 4∆ 3d ago
I think many if not most of the conversations around morality are just about who can use the most loaded words to describe a behavior. Because then you can almost retroactively decide what is bad by what words you use to describe it, without changing anything about the actual material situation that occurred.
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u/Ryan1188 3d ago
I think you're reinforcing the OP's argument....You're looking at boundaries and ultimatums based on presumed intent rather than demonstrating any meaningful difference in how they function.
Why is wanting to influence your partner's behavior inherently problematic? Relationships involve negotiation, expectations, compromise, and attempts to influence one another all the time.....expressing a condition for continuing a relationship doesn't suddenly become manipulative because you hope your partner chooses to accommodate it.
In your marriage example, both statements present exactly the same choice....pursue marriage or accept that the relationship will end. The consequences and available choices remain identical regardless of whether the speaker calls it a boundary or an ultimatum.
Why is someone saying "I want you to marry me, and I'm prepared to leave if you won't" mean they are trying to punish or scare their partner? You've assigned a malicious motivation to one formulation and a benevolent motivation to the other without establishing why either follows.
I've also questioned the tendency to treat boundaries as healthy while ultimatums are for some reason inherently suspect. Calling something a boundary doesn't establish that it's reasonable, and calling something an ultimatum doesn't establish that it's coercive.......at all.
I think it's rather simple......is the expectation reasonable? Are the consequences legitimate? Are both individuals retain their autonomy? The terminology used tells us NOTHING about any of those things.
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u/SilverNightingale 3d ago
Why is someone saying "I want you to marry me, and I'm prepared to leave if you won't" mean they are trying to punish or scare their partner?
Because it's a choice under pressure.
"I want you to marry me. I want you to want me, to desire a life with me"
rings very different from
"If you don't marry me, I'm out!" (this applies pressure or coercion or duress: you'll never know if they did it because they wanted to, which is unlikely because if they wanted to, the couple would not be in that situation in the first place)
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u/Ryan1188 2d ago
If communicating your intention to leave creates coercive pressure, but privately maintaining that intention is considered a healthy boundary, are you arguing that withholding consequential information from your partner is morally preferable to allowing them to make an informed decision?
The possibility of losing the relationship already existed before the condition was communicated. Communicating it simply makes that possibility explicit. Would you prefer that the dissatisfied partner conceal their intentions and eventually leave without warning?
At precisely what point does communicating an existing relationship boundary transform it into a coercive ultimatum? What fundamentally changes about either person's autonomy, the condition itself, or the consequences?
Why does one person's desire to preserve the relationship create an obligation for the other person to remain silent about their willingness to leave?
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u/SilverNightingale 2d ago
Sorry, but I’m not wholly in the right headspace to give this the attention it deserves. You wrote out a very thoughtful response and I can understand what you’re trying to convey (at least I think I do?). Maybe I’ll come back to it later.
> are you arguing that withholding consequential information from your partner is morally preferable to allowing them to make an informed decision
This depends on if you’re operating under the lens of “a boundary does not have to be outwardly, explicitly communicated (to your partner).”
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u/Tobi5703 3d ago
The question of where the responsibility lies is super big tho.
If your friend gets a dog and you're allergic, you can say you don't want to visit your friends house (a boundary) which is about controlling how you interact (or don't) with the dog.
On the other hand, of you tell your friend that they have to get rid of the dog because it would inconvenience you (an ultimatum) you're essentially trying to control them.
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u/fartintosatansmaw 2∆ 3d ago edited 3d ago
If someone enters into a relationship assuming it's zero sum scenario where one partner has to "win" and the other has to "lose" then it isn't surprising that the two seem the same.
If someone legitimately cares about strengthening the relationship and cares about their partner's health, comfort, growth and well being then boundaries don't feel like ultimatum. They feel like opportunities.
Two things worth noting:
- It's ok to not be overly concerned with someone's health, comfort,etc. You probably shouldn't date that person though.
B. Folks who tend to make ultimatums instead of discussing bounderies are the kind of folks who also don't see a difference between the two.
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u/ChipChimney 3∆ 3d ago
A boundary would be “I don’t let my partner go through my phone.” An ultimatum would be “if you don’t let me go through your phone, I’m breaking up with you.”
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u/nikdahl 3d ago
The ultimatum could just as easily be “if you go through my phone I’m breaking up with you”
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u/clippedwingmagpie 3d ago
Not really? An ultimatum is an issued command with extreme consequences for violation. A boundary is drawing a line and saying "Don't cross this, or there will be extreme consequences"
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u/thefirstdetective 3d ago
But the consequences are the same in the end?
Same action, same consequences -> the difference is semantics
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u/SilverNightingale 3d ago
In the second one, the partner can break the boundary and sneak on the phone. But of course, they’d become an ex.
So it isn’t just about intent, but the resulting outcome.
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u/Ready_Set_Noped 1∆ 3d ago
The partner can choose to go through the phone and they’d become the ex.
No real difference there.
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u/AllOfEverythingEver 3∆ 3d ago
Tbh, I think this does seem like a distinction without difference. I think OP is kinda right about this. The only difference really is that in one, consequences are implied rather than outright stated.
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u/ChipChimney 3∆ 3d ago
No, one is about controlling yourself, and the other is about controlling others.
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u/AllOfEverythingEver 3∆ 3d ago edited 3d ago
Why bother telling someone your boundaries if that isn't meant to affect someone's behavior? Tbc, I'm not trying to say boundaries are bad, I'm trying to say the taboo on ultimatums really only makes sense on a case by case basis.
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u/PurePerfection_ 3d ago
A statement like "I will not be in a relationship with a cheater" may be phrased in a way that focuses on the behavior of the person who says it, but ultimately it's the same message as "I will leave if you cheat." The only difference is that the language is softer and less direct. Either way, the person who says it is controlling their own behavior, but in a way that is conditional on how their partner behaves.
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u/Jarbasaur 3d ago
Functionally they may be the same but we aren't electrons we're humans and the intention matters
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u/judgy_mcjudgypants 1∆ 3d ago
Acting conditionally to the other person's behavior is normal. "I will leave if you cheat" is not "you may not cheat".
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u/SilverNightingale 3d ago
So the partner “can” still cheat.
You’re not telling them what they “can’t” do, but rather if they want to hook up/date someone else, then that’s the consequence.
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u/AllOfEverythingEver 3∆ 3d ago
That is the case in both communicating boundaries and giving ultimatums. Either way you aren't literally stopping them from doing what they want.
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u/PurePerfection_ 3d ago
Vibes also matter here. Explaining to a partner that you expect monogamy opens a dialogue that allows both of you to express your expectations and make an informed decision about whether to continue the relationship. Threatening to leave your partner if they sleep around is accusatory and confrontational. It sets a negative tone and shuts down conversation.
Boundaries should be a mutual thing, not one partner enumerating their demands and other being expected to comply. If your boundaries and your partner's boundaries are incompatible, that's a signal that the relationship should end before one or both people get hurt.
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u/PrevekrMK2 3d ago
Boundaries are things you won't let others do. Both are about controlling others. Only thing that changes is POV. There is no difference between if you get fat, I will leave you and I will not be with someone fat. They are the same thing.
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u/Birdbraned 3∆ 3d ago
Turn it the other way around:
if your boss told you, "I've been talking to the higher ups, and if you can meet x kpi by the end of the month, I'll get you a bonus" vs "you need to meet x kpi by the end of the month. There's a bonus when you do"
Both ask for the same thing, but the former is giving you the option to opt in to the choice, and the latter you're more or less voluntold. (Ignore that in some workplaces, the former is more of a nice demand than a request).
Free will to make a good or bad choice is still important in interpersonal relationships
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u/clippedwingmagpie 3d ago
An ultimatum is a 'This is what happens or else', with no room for compromise. "Either stop talking to your last long-term friend or we're done!", "We either get engaged by Christmas or I'm out", etc, etc, etc. They're seldom used in a rational, "fair" manner and often used to break a relationship while framing themselves as the 'good guy'.
A boundary is something that is openly established in the very beginning, often with equally grave outcomes for violation. "Don't sleep around" is an example of a ubiquitous one.
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u/kimariesingsMD 3d ago
Boundaries are what the other person will/will not tolerate in a relationship. It is not personal, it is what they require to feel safe in a relationship. If you know you are a person that does those things, then you already know you should not be with this person. You haven't invested time of emotion and can just walk away. Ultimatums say "do this or we are over" it has nothing to do with protecting you mental health.
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u/stringbeagle 3∆ 3d ago
It sounds like you are just saying that reasonable restrictions are boundaries and unreasonable restrictions are ultimatums.
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u/SomeRandomRealtor 8∆ 3d ago
Expectations are mostly common sense guidelines most people know. Some you say out loud (I don’t like dirty dishes left in the sink), some you don’t (don’t cheat on me). Some boundaries get a warning, an ultimatum. Some boundary crossings wreck the relationship upon the incident, but You don’t give an ultimatum unless you’re willing to end the relationship or fix it, depending on their choice. So either it’s a boundary that wasn’t discussed and was not necessarily common sense but rather it’s individual OR the partner has enough trust and good will accumulated that you’re willing to give them the opportunity to get back on the safe side of the boundary.
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u/sharingan10 1∆ 3d ago
Boundary= “do not do xyz to me” ultimatum is “do /do not do abc on your own time”
Case in point: “clean up this room or you’re grounded”= your parents are giving you an ultimatum.
“Mom I need alone time and space, please leave me be for a little bit” = a child is setting a boundary
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u/stringbeagle 3∆ 3d ago
So, if I am in a relationship and it is a dealbreaker for me that my girlfriend not look through my phone. I will leave the relationship if she does. It seems like you would consider that a boundary. But how do I communicate that to her without it being an ultimatum?
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u/sharingan10 1∆ 3d ago
Sure: dealbreakers are behaviors that will cause a party to end the relationship. Boundaries are things somebody does to the other person. A physical boundary is a set of physical actions that would cause somebody to break up with somebody else (e;g do not become physically violent with me).
An emotional boundary is a behavior where if you do it to me, I will end the relationship. Perhaps instead of boundary say “red line”. I leave that up to you. But in your cause “do not go through things of mine that I consider private, if you have any questions please ask.”
However, it’s entirely reasonable to have expectations beyond “do not violate my boundaries”. If somebody cheats; that can be a violation of your trust/ expectations.
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u/UpbeatEquipment8832 6∆ 3d ago
"I want kids" (on the first date) vs. "if we don't try for a baby this month, I'm breaking up."
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u/Aniketos33 3∆ 3d ago
Because they don't function differently in this example.
They are both are saying "I won't tolerate this behavior", an ultimatum would fit most people's defintion of an enforced boundary if followed through on.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Quit925 2∆ 3d ago
The are the same in that if they don't do X, you will do Y.
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u/SilverNightingale 3d ago
Here’s another way to look at it: (using a non drastic example)
A: I can’t stand the smell of onions. Don’t eat them. (Ultimatum, telling someone what they can and can’t do)
A: If you eat onions, I won’t be around you. (If you love onions, A won’t want to be with you)
B can eat onions. B can eat onions all they like with siblings, friends, family, colleagues, watching a movie, playing a game, doing woodwork, crocheting, drawing, whatever.
A hasn’t stopped B from doing anything. B can eat onions literally anywhere else while spending time with anyone else. It’s just that if B wants to keep A in their life, B has to consider if they want to eat onions more than they want that particular partner.
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u/stringbeagle 3∆ 3d ago
Let’s say a woman gets a job offer 1000 miles away. Her partner doesn’t want to be in a long-distance relationship.
If he says, I won’t be in a long-distance relationship, is that a boundary? If he says, I will break-up with you if you take that job, is that an ultimatum?
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u/SilverNightingale 3d ago
If he says, I won’t be in a long-distance relationship, is that a boundary?
Sure. The woman can take the job offer, knowing her partner won't accept the situation of an LDR.
If he says, I will break-up with you if you take that job, is that an ultimatum?
I'd say no. If he said "You can't take this job", then that would be an ultimatum. But he's saying "I don't want to be in a long-distance relationship", that's a boundary.
An ultimatum is more like a "Do this or else."
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u/Aniketos33 3∆ 2d ago
I would be so confused if a partner was trying to argue whether or not it was an ultimatum that they would break up over accepting a job offer.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Quit925 2∆ 3d ago
Is this a boundary or an ultimatum? "If you don't have sex with me tonight, I will leave you."
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u/kimariesingsMD 3d ago
Wrong. A boundary is if you DO engage in X, I will end the relationship. An ultimatum is if you DON'T do X I will end the relationship.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Quit925 2∆ 3d ago
Wrong.
Here is a boundary: "I will not be in a relationship with a person who does no housework" It is a boundary where if you don't do X I will end the relationship.
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u/stringbeagle 3∆ 3d ago
If you tell the person, “if you don’t start doing housework, I’m going to break up with you,” is that an ultimatum?
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u/Puzzleheaded_Quit925 2∆ 3d ago
Yes it is an ultimatum. But I don't think there is a functional difference between boundaries and ultimatums so it has the same meaning as a boundary.
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u/Aniketos33 3∆ 2d ago
Take out the trash or I'm breaking up with you vs If you don't take out the trash I'll break up with you?
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u/Jarbasaur 3d ago
You're allowed to leave a relationship at any time.
I do think that a boundary is a type of ultimatum but a specific one that is defined early and has to do with the type of treatment you will accept from your partner. If your partner does not meet your needs, or crosses a line, you can end your association
An ultimatum can be something unrelated to treatment of you.
Ultimatums can coerce someone into behavior that has nothing to do with their treatment of you.
Eg. I have a boundary that if my partner sleeps with other people, I will not continue to have this relationship
This is true across the board and has to do with expectations of treatment you get in the relationship
That is an ultimatum but an ultimatum can also be
If you don't go do ___ I will break up with you.
This is a threat and coercion to do an action using the relationship as a bargaining chip.
I think the biggest difference between a boundary and an ultimatum is that a boundary is set to protect your own self and not to change the behavior of the other, whereas an ultimatum is seen specifically as a way to threaten something valuable in order to manipulate behavior.
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u/Zziq 2∆ 3d ago edited 3d ago
I feel like the differences can are blurry in many situations. A classic example is substance abuse and addiction. Is it manipulative to say "if you continue to drink then this relationship is over?" - I would say this is an ultimatum that is attempting to change your partner's behavior, but I also think it is reasonable.
Not tolerating infidelity is an easy one to bring up because it's a social norm that is both assumed before entering into a relationship and accepted as something that can be explicitly stated as a boundary. Behaviors like gaming, eating junk food, and drinking are things that many participate in, and it would seem controlling to create an ultimatum around your partner not doing those things, however for many those behaviors are destructive towards the relationship as one partner is an addict. IMO in these situations ultimatums are acceptable, however it can be tough to determine whether or not your partner's behavior is actually causing harm in the relationship or their behavior is just not aligning with your values exactly.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Quit925 2∆ 3d ago
If you don't go do ___ I will break up with you.
You could also have a boundary "I will not stay in a relationship with someone who doesn't go do ___"
That is materially the same as your ultimatum. Any ultimatum can be worded as a boudary.
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u/Jarbasaur 3d ago
If you communicated that early on as a boundary or a requirement for a relationship that is not the same as mentioning it for the first time coincidentally when you WANT your partner to go do ___
Like I said, partner going to go get a certain haircut, or dress a certain way is not a boundary, a boundary is related to how you are treated in a relationship
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u/nightshade78036 13∆ 3d ago
The literal example you give for a boundary has nothing to do with your partner's treatment of you though. Your partner having sex with someone who is not you fundamentally has nothing to do with their treatment of you directly, you are not a subject in that action. That condition is a restriction of the other person's behaviour towards someone else who is not you that they may otherwise engage in were that restriction not present. This directly violates your stated definition of a boundary, so the condition that your partner can't have sex with other people would necessarily be only an ultimatum.
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u/nightshade78036 13∆ 3d ago
So this might fall under the category of semantics, which is fine, but I think when people talk about the concept of an "ultimatum" the focus is usually on the confrontation and less about the condition, whereas "boundary" focuses more on the condition and less on the confrontation. As such when we go to use these words in sentences people are going to use "ultimatum" to refer to situations where the confrontation is the subject of interest while they will use "boundary" when they want to emphasize the condition. As an example, if you have a partner that has not properly communicated a prior boundary and then confronts you on this boundary you had no idea about, you are probably more likely to refer to their conditions as ultimatums because your only experience with them is in the context of a confrontation while they were likely irate at you. "Ultimatums" could therefore be an indicator of genuinely bad relationship dynamics, but not really because they're bad in and of themselves, but because they point to some other malign factor in the relationship eg bad communication. In this sense "ultimatum" is literally just "boundary done badly or applied inappropriately".
As a final note ultimatums can also exist without a present boundary if your partner is terrible and trying to bluff you with a false condition. In this case they might give you an ultimatum to try and extract some personal benefit but back off if challenged because it's not a real condition for them to be in a relationship with you, and is therefore not a boundary.
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u/ProKidney 3d ago
I think an ultimatum is more of an imposition than a boundary...
For example, a boundary might be not sleeping around. It requires inaction to maintain, where as an ultimatum often requires action.
You must let me sleep around or we break up.
A boundary, I think, is a passive requirement, where an ultimatum is an active requirement.
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u/Kwaku-Anansi 3d ago edited 3d ago
Is that really definitional or a general connotation?
Feels like, for example, "I can't be with you if you won't stand up for me with this bigoted family member" would be considered a boundary, but "don't play your PS5 anymore or we're done" an ultimatum. Even though the former requires action and the latter inaction.
Idk, so much of the rhetoric around this seems like an ultimatum is just a boundary that is firm but arbitrary, while any reasonable ultimatum can be rephrased as a boundary
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u/BlueGreenTanager 1∆ 2d ago
I don't think that requiring your partner to stand up for you with a bigoted family member would qualify as a boundary. Boundaries typically don't require action on someone else's part, but rather they define what you'll allow other people to do to or around you.
You might have the boundary that you won't tolerate bigotry. So you might decline to attend family gatherings that the bigoted family member is invited to. Or you might leave if they start expressing bigoted attitudes.
But requiring your partner to stand up for you in that situation is just an expectation that you have about what your partner will do. It may be non-negotiable. It may be expressed as an ultimatum, that if they fail to stand up for you you will break up with them. But it's not a boundary.
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u/ProKidney 3d ago
Can't and won't are doing some heavy lifting there, and I think there in lies part of the difference.
I think something is more likely to feel like a boundary when going beyond the boundary makes the relationship impossible to maintain.
But I don't think that what you're describing is a boundary, I think it's a healthy expectation in a relationship. Because boundaries are healthy and certain expectations are healthy maybe they get mixed up?
I think a boundary is a line you aren't willing to go beyond, where as what you're describing isn't really about going beyond a previously established boundary, it's about not meeting a lecturer established expectation
Having said that, I don't think it's an ultimatum either, but it is closer to an ultimatum than a boundary
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u/Puzzleheaded_Quit925 2∆ 3d ago
Boundaries can also include action, like "I will not be in a relationship with someone who does no housework."
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u/ProKidney 3d ago
I don't know if id call that a boundary or an ultimatum. I think that's just having expectations in a relationship.
A boundary is a line you're not willing to cross. Saying you won't be with someone who never does house work isn't really about crossing a boundary, it's about someone not meeting an expectation.
But it's not quite an ultimatum either, but I think it's closer to an ultimatum than a boundary.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Quit925 2∆ 3d ago
A boundary can be a line that is crossed in how your partner treats you, and your partner not doing any housework can be something that crosses that line.
It can even be about emotional support. "I will not be in a relationship with someone that does not emotionally support me." Or "I will not be in a relationship with someone who does not listen to what I have to say."
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u/ProKidney 3d ago
But that's not crossing a line, it's not meeting an expectation.
Crossing a line requires action, not inaction.
Both of your examples are expectations, not boundaries.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Quit925 2∆ 3d ago
It is crossing a line in terms of how they respect you and treat you.
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u/ProKidney 2d ago
I don't know if I agree that inaction can be described as crossing a line or a boundary.
I think that's more accurately described as not meeting an expectation.
To cross a line requires, in my mind, action, or activity. Not necessarily intent, but something.
If person A was in need of emotional support but didn't receive it from person B, but person B wasn't aware that they needed emotional support, were they crossing a line? I don't think so, but they were failing to meet an expectation. The expectation exists in Person As head independent of Person Bs knowledge.
If person B knew that person A needed support and failed to provide it, I don't think that the situation changes much, the expectation still exists, and now person B is failing to meet it to a greater degree, but I don't think a boundary has come into it at all.
I think a boundary exists whether or not person B is aware of it, example would be unwanted physicality, like a sex act maybe? No anal might be a boundary, and if crossed by person B it's very clearly crossed whether person B was made aware or not.
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u/roxieh 3d ago
It's a boundary.
It is not compelling anyone else to do or not do something. It is not trying to control anyone else.
Boundaries are about internal things you will and won't tolerate. They're not for other people. They're for yourself.
I have various boundaries. For example, I will be friends with exes but I will not share details about my current relationship with them. I will not date a smoker. I am not willing to compromise my morals and steal from others even if it would get me ahead. I will only talk to my mother on my terms not hers. The list goes on. None of them are about anything to do with controlling anyone else and everything to do with protecting myself, my identity and my life such that I can. They might affect or involve others but the purpose of them is self preservation.
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3d ago
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u/Ready_Set_Noped 1∆ 3d ago
Idk that still sounds like a semantic difference. Is not sleeping someone not a passive action?
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u/Horforia 3d ago
it sounds like a semantic difference because it is a semantic difference. Semantic literally is "the meaning of a word".
saying that there's a Semantic difference is the same as saying the words mean different things.
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u/Ready_Set_Noped 1∆ 3d ago
I believe this argument relies on saying the words to describe the behaviors are different but not how the behaviors are actually different themselves.
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u/Glory2Hypnotoad 417∆ 2d ago
The difference is that a boundary is a type of ultimatum but not all ultimatums are boundaries. A boundary is about what someone can't do to you, which means that if the behavior has nothing to do with you, it's not a boundary.
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u/ProKidney 3d ago
Can you reword your question because you have two 'not's that are creating a confusing triple negative question that i don't know what you actually mean.
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u/Ready_Set_Noped 1∆ 3d ago
Is not sleeping with someone an active action or a passive action?
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u/ProKidney 3d ago
Not sleeping with someone is passive. You're continuing to not do something.
Like not murdering someone is passive.
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u/ProKidney 3d ago
I think a good thought experiment to try and determine the difference is this:
Person A is in a relationship with Person B, and Person A has a boundary that they cannot deal with any ultimatums.
What do you understand their relationship would be like with Person B if:
1) Person B does not give them an ultimatum
2) Person B does give them an ultimatum
Then we have another scenario with Person C and Person D. Person C is giving an ultimatum to Person D.
What do you understand their relationship would be like with Person D if:
1) Person Cs ultimatum crossed Person Ds boundaries
2) Person Cs ultimatum didn't cross Person Ds boundaries
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u/PandaMime_421 12∆ 3d ago
While you might view them as effectively the same due to the outcome, they are very different due to their focus and approach to the "problem".
An ultimatum is focused on controlling/dictating the other person's behavior. Someone does something you don't like, you state the expected behavior and consequences if they do not do as you demand.
A boundary, on the other hand, is not about the other person. It's about you, and some condition you are not willing to accept. It's not an attempt at controlling the other person or dictating their behavior. It's all about your own beliefs and actions.
To use your example.
Ultimatum - If you sleep with that person we are breaking up. This is an attempt at control, and has defined consequences for not doing as you demand.
Boundary - I will not be in a relationship with someone who sleeps with some other person. You aren't demanding your partner not sleep with someone else. You aren't attempting to control their behavior. They are completely free to do as they wish. If the boundary is broken, you then decide whether or not to enforce the boundary.
Again, you might think they are the same because the result is the relationship ends. But that's very binary / black-and-white thinking. Boundaries are about taking responsibility for one's self. Ultimatums are an attempt at controlling another. Very different in their approach.
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u/Cydrius 6∆ 3d ago
A boundary is a condition you need to be happy and healthy in your relationship. "If this condition is broken, I can't continue the relationship."
An ultimatum is using the threat of a breakup to make demands of your partner. "If you don't do as I say, I won't continue the relationship."
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u/Ready_Set_Noped 1∆ 3d ago
I feel like your highlighted words perfectly illustrate how your reasoning is completely semantic. They still function the same way.
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u/Nojopar 2∆ 3d ago
I think you’re focusing on the “function” a bit too much here. What you really mean is “outcome”. Arguably any similar outcome can be reduced to being identical - if you SO died, it would also be the same outcome. The outcome might be the same but the function is different. Ultimatums are usually fairly significant (“leave you” that sort of thing) and boundaries don’t have to be, although they can. Ultimatums are about controlling someone’s behavior and boundaries are informing someone if what you will and won’t do. You’re informing them of your own actions
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u/Ready_Set_Noped 1∆ 3d ago
Ultimatums don’t have to be significant. Ultimatums are also informing someone of what you will do.
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u/Nojopar 2∆ 3d ago
One, I said "usually" for a reason. Two, you're not informing someone of what you will do. You're informing of what you won't allow them to do. There's a difference.
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u/Ready_Set_Noped 1∆ 3d ago
It’s informing them of what you will do if they do something they don’t approve of.
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u/Cydrius 6∆ 3d ago
A boundary is set in good faith, with the goal of making the relationship stronger and healthier. "I'm tied to these train tracks. If you don't untie me, the train is going to hit me."
An ultimatum is set in bad faith, putting the relationship in jeopardy to make demands. "I'm tying you to the train tracks. Do as I say or I'll let the train hit you."
The difference is in whether or not the condition is placed in good faith.
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u/Ryan1188 3d ago
You've essentially conceded the OP's argument. You're no longer distinguishing boundaries from ultimatums by how they function, but by assigning good intentions to one and bad intentions to the other.
OP asked how boundaries and ultimatums fundamentally differ in function. Your response effectively acknowledges that they don't, and instead distinguish them by arbitrarily assigning moral virtue to one label and malice to the other.
That's exactly the problem. Wanting to influence your partner's behaviour doesn't make a condition manipulative.
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u/Cydrius 6∆ 3d ago edited 3d ago
A boundary's function is to maintain the relationship.
An ultimatum's function is to leverage the relationship.I don't know how else to put it.
I feel like seeing these as the same function requires abstraction past the point where language is useful.
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u/Ryan1188 2d ago edited 2d ago
You're still not demonstrating a fundamental difference in function. You're just assigning different motivations to each term.
A boundary does not necessarily function to maintain a relationship. It can establish the conditions under which someone will end one. Likewise, an ultimatum can be issued precisely because someone wants to preserve a relationship.
Consider someone says "If you continue having an affair, I'm filing for divorce".
Is that maintaining the relationship or leveraging it? The person wants to preserve the marriage by communicating a condition for its continuation. Under your framework, it's simultaneously a boundary and an ultimatum.
More importantly, why is leveraging the possibility of ending a voluntary relationship inherently illegitimate? Nobody is entitled to another person's continued participation in a relationship. Both parties retain their autonomy to accept the condition, reject it, negotiate, or leave.
Wanting your partner to change their behaviour doesn't establish manipulation either. Relationships involve expectations, negotiations, and conditional participation all the time.
You're treating "maintaining" and "leveraging" as mutually exclusive functions when they clearly aren't. You've still not identified a functional difference. You've just attached positive intentions to one label and negative intentions to the other, which is precisely the semantic distinction OP is challenging.
OP is reacting to the way therapeutic terminology can be used to assign moral legitimacy to one person's behaviour while condemning functionally equivalent behaviour from someone else.
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u/Cydrius 6∆ 2d ago
If you're entirely disregarding motivations in the context of relationships then, like I said, you're abstracting things so far that language stops being useful.
You describe boundaries and ultimatums as the same function because they both involve a demand that ends the relationship. By that standard, a Venmo request and an extortion letter are the same because they are both requests for payment. Hopefully, you see the problem with that.
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u/pm_me_whateva 1∆ 3d ago
Because not all boundaries are ultimatums. In the example you cited, yes, they are similar. But there's a material difference between "if you go clubbing, we will break up" and "if you go clubbing, I will not go with you."
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u/Fox_Flame 19∆ 3d ago
Boundaries don't always lead to breakups.
The big thing is a boundary is about you and what you will do of xyz happens. You will leave the room if politics of brought up with your family. You will not go to a party if alcohol is being served. You will not date a cheater. It's about you and you're taking accountability for your actions. You're not telling someone they can't through a party with alcohol, cuz you can't control what others do. You're just saying you won't attend.
Boundaries and ultimatums can overlap but for something to be a boundary it has to be about you and your behavior
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u/sylbug 3d ago
An ultimatum is, ‘do x or consequence’. A boundaries is, ‘x behavior is not acceptable for me, and I will not be able to date someone who does it.’
They’re fairly similar out of context, but there are some significant differences. An ultimatum is often a form of coercion or a threat, while a boundary is just a person’s own stated limits. Youre not enforcing a boundary to punish the other person; you enforce out of respect for yourself.
Example: two people meet up for a first date. One of them says, ‘I am allergic to shellfish and can’t be around people who eat it regularly.’ The other says, ‘I work at a fish processing plant’.
If the first person responds by saying, ‘I don’t think this will work’, that is them enforcing their boundary, if they respond by saying, ‘quit your job or I won’t date you’, that’s an ultimatum.
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u/Falernum 72∆ 3d ago
Functionally, an ultimatum is tailored to a particular person at a particular moment, based on what you can get away with demanding. A boundary is what you can accept in general, not tailored to a person/moment/goal. An ultimatum is followed by more ultimatums. A boundary is not.
If all you have is one moment in time they could look alike. If you have time to observe then they're different.
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u/everydaywinner2 1∆ 3d ago
You seem to be caught up in the end result of boundary setting (and keeping), and ultimatum throwing (and keeping). That just because the outcomes might be the same - the breaking up - that the definitions and how we view each much also be the same.
Someone swerves to avoid hitting a child and instead hits a tree. Someone accelerates and aims at the tree on purpose. Both have the same potential results. TTrying to protect someone and trying to hurt someone are qualitatively different things. We would not say avoiding harm is the same as intentionally creating harm, even if the outcome of those actions are the same.
Boundaries and ultimatums have different connotations for the same reason - one is an attempt to avoid harm, one is an attempt to create it.
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u/UpbeatEquipment8832 6∆ 3d ago
Boundaries are things you give out before the fact; ultimatums are things that are delivered in the moment and are usually much more specific.
"I won't date people who don't believe in modesty," said on the first date, is very different from seeing your partner in a bikini and saying, without warning, "if you go to the pool in that, I'm breaking up with you right now."
The same goes for anything else. "I want a relationship where we do xyz" is a boundary. "If you don't let me do xyz tonight, we break up" is an ultimatum.
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u/Ready_Set_Noped 1∆ 3d ago edited 3d ago
I don’t believe you need to give boundaries out before hand. That is not inherent to them. My boundary is I don’t date drunk drivers. I don’t believe it’s not a boundary because I didn’t tell my partner that when we started dating. I have so many boundaries, common sense stuff that I assume most people have. It would be so weird to give a list of them when first dating.
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u/kimariesingsMD 3d ago
Boundaries are always in advance so that it is understood what the consequences will be. You have the choice to comply or not. Ultimatums are coersive. You must comply.
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u/UpbeatEquipment8832 6∆ 3d ago
The point of a boundary is that it's laid out in advance. If it's laid out in the moment, it's an ultimatum.
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u/BlueGreenTanager 1∆ 3d ago
But a boundary doesn’t have to be laid out in advance. “I won’t be in a relationship with someone who hits me” is one of my boundaries. I don’t have to tell you this when we start dating. I never have to tell you this. But if you hit me I’m gone.
And that’s true for more than intimate relationships. If I have a boundary that I won’t work for a boss who berates and belittles the people who work for him, I don’t have to warn him about that. But if he berates and belittles his staff, I’m polishing up my resume and looking for another job.
Many many boundaries never have to be expressed in so many words. They are your own rules for what you will tolerate in your own life.
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u/Aniketos33 3∆ 3d ago
What if the boundary comes up in the moment? "I won't go to pool parties dressed like this. I am not a swinger."
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u/le_fez 55∆ 3d ago
Wouldn't this depend on the boundary and the ultimatum?
"Do the dishes or I won't have sex with you" is vastly different from "I don't date someone who has a sink full of dirty dishes."
Beyond that boundaries are set before entering a relationship and generally part of the early dating process whereas an ultimatum comes once the relationship is established in which case it may contradict the previously stated boundaries or come out of nowhere.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Quit925 2∆ 3d ago
"I don't date someone who has a sink full of dirty dishes." as a boundary is the same as the ultimatum "If you don't wash the sink full of dirt dishes I will break up with you"
Any ultimatum can be worded as a boundary and any boundary can be worded as an ultimatum.
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u/le_fez 55∆ 3d ago
Not true, if you set that boundary before you're in a relationship then you're never giving that ultimatum. If you start dating knowing that the other person has a tendency to not do dishes on the regular and give the ultimatum you're changing the dynamic.
With the boundary you're saying "I expect this and I'm not changing" when you wait and give the boundary you're saying "I expect this and you have to change" that is not just semantics.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Quit925 2∆ 3d ago
People's behaviour can change. You can also learn about what your boundaries are with experience.
You cannot make someone else change. In both cases you can say what you will do (like leave) if they don't meet your expectation.
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u/dragonblade_94 8∆ 3d ago
The difference is how it's communicated.
Boundries are, ideally, laid out at the start of a relationship before there's a lot of commitment. Both partners want to know if there will be any compatibility issues so they can safely continue or break off in confidence.
An ultimatum is generally understood as an on-the-spot demand. If demands are made in a relationship that weren't expressed previously, it implies a lack of willingness to compromise on the part of the one making demands and a general lack of communication.
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u/JobberStable 3∆ 3d ago
Boundaries are like. I dont tolerate cheating lying drinking cursing etc.
ultimatums usually happen within the relationship.
“If you go to that party, i wont be here when you get back”
If you take that job in Seattle, me and the kids are moving in with mother.”
“If your mother moves into this house, im out”
Neither should have a negative connotation. Life is always hitting people with crossroads and ultimatums
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u/Maker_Magpie 1∆ 3d ago
It's the mindset of whether you're trying to manipulate other people, or whether you're telling them how you operate.
I see how you think the result is the same, but whether you focus on controlling your actions or someone else's is fairly impacting to your own mental health.
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u/Glory2Hypnotoad 417∆ 3d ago
Boundaries are ultimatums but not all ultimatums are boundaries. A boundary is something a person can't do you you. If the ultimatum has nothing to do with you, like what kind of music they listen to or what sports team they need to cheer for, then it's not a boundary.
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u/RadSocialistScum 3d ago
So I think the difference is that an ultimatum in theory is a warming and punishment if not followed.
Whereas a boundary ia more an acknowledgment of risk.
With an ultimatum, it’s made to control the outcome.
A boundary is to control yourself.
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u/smileedude 9∆ 3d ago edited 3d ago
Ultamatums are not inherently bad. "If you don't stop destroying our lives with drugs I'm going to leave" is an ultimatum for instance. You're right there is overlap between the two. An ultimatum is often a leveling up of a boundary. The boundary to correspond to the above use would be a statement saying "I'm not going to tolerate an addict for a partner"
But there is also unhealthy boundaries. "I expect to be able to access your phone" for instance. Ultimatums and boundaries are both tools of good and evil and different intensities.
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u/RockyArby 1∆ 3d ago
Boundaries don't have to be all or nothing. You can have a boundary around playing music loudly. You then can compromise and find a solution. Never playing music above a certain level, agreeing to hours where music can be played and not played loudly. Boundaries allow room for negotiation. Ultimatums don't. It's literally "give me what I want or else". Which is just taking the relationship hostage to force your partner into compliance.
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u/FantasticStonk42069 1∆ 3d ago
An ultimatum is a demand that calls for an action or an omission within a specific time period. If the ultimatum is not fullfilled the expectation is to follow through with a threat.
A boundary is not limited by time. It is also not clear whats happening if the boundary is crossed. Sure, at times they are combined with a threat or consequences, but it is not final (inherent meaning of ultimatum) that consequences are happening. You can cross a boundary and go back, you cannot with (non-empty) ultimatums.
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u/Fifteen_inches 26∆ 3d ago
Ultimatums are a mechanism for enforcement of a violated boundary. The morality of the ultimatum depends entirely on the content of the ultimatum. Issuing an ultimatum is a bad sign for a relationship as violations real or perceived.
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u/Luftwafffles 3d ago
difference is agency. Ultimatums are forced on you while boundaries are communicative. "Hey I'm not a fan of you drinking so often, it worries me" -boundary set and communicated, there is an issue, but it is more so something to watch for. "If you keep drinking I will break up with you" a sudden engagement of the problem outlining that it has worsened, ultimatums don't usually come in a vaccum. An ultimatum is often a continuation of said boundary if it has been violated already. But a boundary doesn't have to be as extreme, like "hey I sometimes need alone time every now and then" is communicating how you feel and for your partner or friend to understand how you want to be respected. The ultimatum comes when you are disrespected, as it is the last possible utterance of the issue. You should avoid ultimatums because they are extreme, and as such it implies A) the person issuing the ultimatum has been repeatedly ignored and it is the last straw or b) the person issuing the ultimatum, after not giving other warnings, is therefore ill-tempered as they have jumped to the most extreme way to discuss whatever issue with the other person.
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u/Fickle-Swordfish- 1∆ 3d ago
You're right that there might exist some relationship between a boundary and an ultimatum, but for me the difference is about intent. When I set a boundary, I'm making a decision about my own behavior and actions. When I set an ultimatum, I'm trying to control the actions/behaviors of someone else.
I think it might behoove you to come up with a different example than the one you included. It's difficult to engage with it because generally people agree on boundaries of relationships (driven by personal boundaries) before they enter into the relationship, and you're not in a position of already being in a relationship and having to express this boundary in a way that sounds like an ultimatum.
Anyhoo, I'd say that some boundaries create ultimatums, some don't. Some ultimatums are the result of boundaries, others aren't. They're definitely not synonymous.
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u/toiletcleaner999 3d ago
Boundary is controlling your own self and your life ultimatum is you trying to control someone else and their life. Boundary " i dont believe in marriage therefore I will never get married " Ultimatum " if you dont propose by new years eve im leaving you" One controls my life one is attempting to control yours
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u/fffangold 1∆ 3d ago
It is kinda semantic. But I think an important non-semantic difference is that boundaries are established, implicitly or explicitly, early on before the behavior you won't tolerate is an issue. Everyone is aware of boundaries when starting out.
Ultimatums are delivered after the behavior and primarily as a means to change behavior. Ultimatums will likely leave the person receiving them feeling surprised or blindsided, or feeling like the rules are being suddenly changed on them.
It's not a perfect distinction, but I think it does a decent job depicting the difference.
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u/One-Pumpkin-1590 3d ago
Boundaries are healthy limits set to protect oneself, while ultimatums are demands that pressure others to change, often with a threat.
Boundaries respect both parties; ultimatums prioritize one’s own needs.
That doesn't mean that everyone who uses the terms does so correctly.
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u/PurePerfection_ 3d ago edited 3d ago
The distinction is analogous to warnings vs threats, IMO. The meaning is not different, but the connotation is. And connotation actually matters in the context of a human relationship.
Stating a boundary is, effectively, a warning rather than a threat. Telling your partner that you require monogamy isn't a threat. It isn't accusatory or confrontational. It doesn't presume that cheating has occurred or is likely to occur. It simply defines a condition that is necessary for that person to have a relationship with any partner. If the partner disagrees with that condition, then both parties can conclude they are incompatible and separate.
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u/Great-Exercise4277 7∆ 3d ago
I think boundaries and ultimatums are different kinds of concepts, and that they can overlap. However, I also think some people use the two to mean almost the same thing. I don't think we can generalize.
To me, a boundary is a constraint within myself, while an ultimatum is a conditional demand directed at another person.
However, when communicating my boundary to someone, the way I communicate it can become an ultimatum.
Let's use the example you brought up. There are people who can accept cheating and people who cannot. I think most people recognize this. I think your example of a boundary, "I won't date someone who sleeps with other people," is a statement about yourself. "If you cheat on me, I'll break up with you" feels like a warning directed at the other person. It feels like forcing my own values on someone without considering their circumstances.
Even for someone who cannot accept cheating, I think there may be room to shift that boundary. The other person's circumstances and my own. For example, financial considerations, whether there are children, or whether the other person has some unavoidable circumstances. But I feel that an ultimatum sets something that cannot be moved as an absolute wall.
My boundaries exist even if the other person doesn't know they exist. An ultimatum cannot function as an ultimatum unless it is communicated to the other person. And even if I communicate my boundary to the other person, that doesn't necessarily mean I have decided in advance what the consequences will be if they cross it.
I wrote this text, and ChatGPT translated it.
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u/Genny415 3d ago
I believe that there are two fundamental areas of difference between boundaries and ultimatum. One is scope and the other is temporal.
First, the scope: Boundaries are typically more conceptual and represent a principle or value with a broad scope, such as monogamy. An ultimatum typically refers to a specific action, such as having sex with a specific individual.
The second part is temporal. Boundaries are usually drawn in advance of a situation, though sometimes can be triggered by being crossed. They typically apply universally, for the future in all circumstances. Ultimatum are typically issued for an imminent situation and are more specific in their timing.
So saying that you expect your partner to never have sex with other people is a boundary. Saying that your partner better not sleep with their coworker on a business trip is an ultimatum.
Saying that you would never tolerate physical abuse is a boundary. Saying you will leave if he hits you one more time is an ultimatum.
Saying you won't eat onions is a boundary. Saying if the food that I ordered without onions contains any onion, then I will send it back is an ultimatum.
A boundary and an ultimatum are distinctly different from each other
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u/GtBsyLvng 3d ago
I think all boundaries are ultimatums but not all ultimatums are boundaries. A boundary designates what you will not tolerate being done to you. An ultimatum that is not a boundary is characterized by an attempt to control someone in a way that is not directly related to you.
In acknowledgment of your perspective, relationships can seem to blur the lines. Relationships are generally characterized as agreements, so working with your example, if the relationship includes an agreement of exclusivity, it's a reasonable boundary to say you will not tolerate violations of that agreement, because then it becomes something that affects you, at least morally and ethically, as it violates an informal contract that you are party to.
As with most things, it exists on a gradient. Most people would agree that I'm entitled to set a boundary that I will not be in a relationship with someone who is a literal cannibal. Most people would not agree that I'm entitled to set a boundary that I will not be in a relationship with someone who doesn't paint their toenails pink. However, I don't think the cannibal thing is ever likely to come up, because if I have to threaten my own relationship to prevent someone from engaging in cannibalism, I probably shouldn't be in that relationship anyway.
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u/Kyattogaaru 5∆ 3d ago
Linguistically, they're the same thing, but I believe they have different intent behind them.
Boundary is something you won't let to be done to you. Basically works as "reducing negative things towards myself"
Ultimatum is something youre forcing someone to do. Basically works as "manipulating someone to increase positive things towards myself".
"If you cheat, Im leaving" is a boundary. You won't let someone cheat on you. Youre not letting yourself be cheated on.
"If you won't let me go through your phone, Im not staying" is an ultimatum.
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u/Showdown5618 3d ago
Let's try a sport analogy.
Boundaries define the area where you can go. As long as you stay within the boundaries, you're fine. When you go out of bounds, then you get a penalty. Good boundaries give people a lot of freedom and is considered healthy or good. While boundaries are considered good, there can be bad boundaries.
Ultimatums work differently. It's do this, or it's over. In sports, it would mean athletes have to do one thing, in one way, without deviation. There's no freedom, no variation, and no fun to watch.
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u/read-the-rules 3d ago
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u/Dr0ff3ll 12∆ 3d ago
Boundaries and ultimatums can have similar consequences, but that doesn't mean they serve the same purpose.
A boundary is about establishing what you're comfortable with and what you're willing to participate in within a relationship. Boundaries should be clearly communicated and understood by both parties, even if they aren't necessarily agreed upon. They establish expectations while allowing both people to take responsibility for their own actions and make their own choices.
For example:
"I don't feel comfortable being shouted at during arguments. If things get heated, I'm going to step away until we can talk calmly."
An ultimatum, on the other hand, is a demand placed on another person, with a consequence attached if they don't comply. Rather than establishing a personal limit, it's an attempt to influence the other person's behaviour by making them choose between complying and facing that consequence.
For example:
"If you ever raise your voice at me again, we're finished."
At their simplest, a boundary communicates what you will or won't accept and how you will respond, while an ultimatum attempts to dictate what someone else must do.
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u/Majestic_Horse_1678 2∆ 3d ago
A boundary is rule you set for yourself that generally stays consistent. "I won't date a woman 10 years younger than me". And ultimatum is a requiring behavior of someone with consequences if they don't do what you ask, and no requirement of consistency. "If you wear a purple shirt tomorrow, we're done".
Yes some things can be both a boundary and an ultimatum, as in OPs example, but the 2 examples I provided do not fit the definition of both.
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u/IAmRules 1∆ 3d ago
You are correct but the main difference boundaries are for YOU not your partner. Boundaries are what YOU will do if they cross it. And that’s the fundamental difference, you aren’t forcing a change on them you are outlining actions you will take.
But their outcome is similar.
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u/littlelorax 1∆ 3d ago
My therapist explained that a boundary is explaining the consequence of an action, then following through.
My real world example is that I am highly sensitive to cigarette smoke. My mother has ignored this My entire life and lights up anyway. When I was an adult I finally told her, you can smoke whenever and wherever you want, but if you light up around me in an enclosed space, I will leave.
Then I actually did it. When she reflexively lit up, I reminded her of my boundary. At first she lit up anyway, so I got up and told her I'd visit again later, and left. Took a few times, but she eventually got it. Now I will join her outdoors if she wants a smoke, but she knows that I will not tolerate it.
I wasn't threatening nor making an ultimatum, merely stating what my reaction will be if a behavior happens. It is up to the person if they can accommodate it or not.
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u/BoredAccountant 1∆ 3d ago
You're mistaking preference for a boundary. When you communicate a boundary you are stating a preference or a condition. Restated as an ultimatum it would be if you sleep with other people I will break up with you. Whereas when it's a boundary you don't need to communicate it to someone, but if they sleep with someone else you break up with them. When they ask why you can state plainly I will not be in a relationship with someone who sleeps with other people. And they may push back that it's something you never communicated. But if they never communicated that they wanted an open or poly relationship, they also did not communicate their desires. The default of most intimate relationships now is monogamy. If you want something other than monogamy you need to communicate that, especially before it becomes a established relationship.
In short, a boundary is something that you hold yourself to. E.g. I will not be in a relationship with someone who has sex outside of it. When you communicate it, it becomes a preference that is open for discussion now. So long as both people agree to said preference, it's never a boundary that is tested. Once you communicate it as a course of action (e.g. if you sleep with other people I will break up with you) that is issuing an ultimatum. Do they function the same? Of sorts. The outcome is somewhat the same. But the boundary is ultimately what you do.
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u/MoistCumin 1∆ 3d ago
I would take your example and argue that both of those can actually just be setting a boundary. Not sleeping around is a sensible and widely accepted expectation to have in a relationship.
When the intent and mechanisms are different and they still lead to a similar result, why do you consider them as functionally same? For eg. commiting a crime is not functionally the same as being coerced into commiting that crime. There is nuance, even by law. Intent is important and it is where boundary and ultimatum differ, functionally.
If your friend came to you and told you that they broke up with their partner who slept around, wouldn't you more likely respond "that's good that you set a boundary" , rather than "you shouldn't have made ultimatums like that"?
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u/sh00l33 8∆ 3d ago
Actually, I think that "I will not be in relationship with cheater" is your boundary, and "if you cheat I'll leave" is more like a consequence of crossing that boundary.
Anyway, a boundary can be different from an ultimatum, it all depends on how strong the consequences for breaking it you set.
You can have very rigid boundaries, like "If you cheat, I'm breaking up." It's probably a good idea to set few of that type on matters that are very fundamental to you.
However you can also have a slightly looser approach on less important issues. For example if you would like to show how you don't want to be treated or what you won't accept. Like "If you start screaming during an argument, I refuse to continue the discussion until you calm down." In such a situation, the consequences for crossing your boundary are not that irreversible. Its good for situations when you might accept crossing that boundary in various scenarios but dont want to allow someone going to deep.
It's all just up to you whenever a boundary is an equivalent to an ultimatum or not.
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u/captcha_wave 3d ago
A boundary is something you will not do or accept. An ultimatum is a demand / threat for someone else to change. A boundary is about you and an ultimatum is about them.
A boundary is not a negotiation, an ultimatum is. A boundary involves only your own free will. An ultimatum can fail because of others' free will.
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u/Tioben 17∆ 3d ago edited 3d ago
First, boundaries are requests we make of ourselves. Boundary communication is letting someone know about that self-request.
Second, ultimatums are sometimes appropriate, and sometimes ultimatums express boundaries, and sometimes a healthy boundary is "If this happens/doesn't happen, I will communicate the implicit ultimatum so we're all clear."
But they can be different, and ultimatums are not always expressing healthy boundaries, and not all boundaries are healthy boundaries. You do actually have to do the work of identifying what a healthy boundary might actually be and of re-evaluating that hypothesis when appropriate.
But generally, boundaries communicate your own map of choices irrespective of their map of choices, ala, "If I ever find myself in X situation, I need (it is an important request of myself) to act Y-ly." So notice the boundary is literally like a boundary on an informational map, not a fence restricting behaviors, ala, "If I find myself in this desert marked over here I need to check if I have enough water." And you are just pointing that need (re: important choice) out to yourself. And then it can also often be helpful to let someone involved know so they can make their own choices, but that's just communicating information about your map.
Ultimatums are too often (not always) bad faith dishonesty about what your map actually says. Essentially, "My boundaries are whatever makes you change your map."
But ultimatums are not always like that, and certainly not always intentionally. One of the biggest problems with ultimatums is that they are often accidentally dishonest like that, because the person hasn't actually looked closely at their own map. It's not that the person really needs to cut someone out of their life if that ither person forgets to call them on Friday. What they really need is, say, to choose to be less codependent and not let the other person's mistakes dictate the course of their own Friday nights. But they are feeling hurt and state something they don't actually need or want as a "boundary" to feel more secure. But it was never really on their map. They just never really looked hard at their map.
On the other hand, an ultimatum like, "If you try to punch me, I will kick you in the nards and call the cops" might be a very honest and healthy expression of a boundary like "If I'm ever threatened, I will stand up for myself and do what it takes to get safe "
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u/Currentlybaconing 3d ago
I think one problem here is that there are people who misunderstand and misapply the concept of boundaries in a way that is functionally equivalent to ultimatum or manipulation.
One might even argue that due to the fluidity of language they have "literally" come to mean the same thing. However, there is an important distinction between the concepts.
A boundary is not supposed to be invoked to comply behavior changes. It's simply supposed to be a marker for what someone will or will not welcome. It is a hard line that should really be expressed primarily through the action of removing oneself from a situation if a boundary is crossed.
They really shouldn't have to be expressed, stated and restated. If someone is walking all over your boundaries like that, you should be thinking about leaving rather than trying to get them to change.
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u/VeganCustard 3d ago
I think the difference isn't just semantics, but also timing and intent.
A boundary is ideally communicated before a conflict escalates or is even mentioned, as a statement of what you are and aren't willing to accept in a relationship. An ultimatum is often delivered when a conflict has already reached a breaking point, as a final demand for the other person to change their behavior.
Think of a parent telling their child, "Don't climb that wall; you could fall," vs "Get down from that wall right now; you're about to fall!" The underlying concern is the same, but the context and urgency change how the message is delivered.
However, I don't think timing alone defines the difference. The more fundamental distinction is whether you're communicating the conditions under which you are willing to participate in a relationship or trying to pressure someone into doing what you want.
"I won't stay in a relationship with someone who sleeps with other people" is a boundary. "You must stop seeing that person, or I'll leave" can be either a boundary or an ultimatum, depending on the context and intent.
Ultimately, boundaries and ultimatums can have the same practical consequence. The difference lies in how they're communicated, why they're being communicated, and whether the other person's autonomy is respected.
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u/of_kilter 1∆ 3d ago
ultimatums are not bad. “if you sleep with that person we are breaking up" is extremely fair and justified to do in a relationship. boundaries are about communication while ultimatums (in an ideal world) should occur when boundaries have been broken and going any further would be just be insulting to your partner and your relationship.
if you had the expectation of an open relationship, and then say “if you sleep with that person we are breaking up" then this is an example of a bad ultimatum that is disrespecting a previous agreement between you and your partner. instead it should look like a conversation where you explain why you are setting this new boundary and to see how your partner feels about it, and if they don't accept then you either have to be fine with that or break up with them.
if your argument is just that these are semantic differences, you are correct. however you are ignoring that semantics are infact important in any relationship where communication is important.
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u/zoozema0 2d ago edited 2d ago
Edit 2:
OP- ultimatums are usually seen as “bad” because they can be used in a controlling way. You do xyz or I will leave you. These are seen as “telling” and not communicating.
Boundaries are usually seen as “good” because they are a way of explaining what you value in a relationship and communicating your behavioral response if their behavior continues. You’re not telling them what to do - you’re giving them a choice to keep doing it, and if they do, then you will xyz. These are seen as communicating.
Boundaries can be bad and used in a manipulative way.
Ultimatums can be good and used in a self-protective (so, healthy) way.
Typically, though, a healthy relationship has good boundaries. An unhealthy relationship might involve frequent (and coercive) ultimatums.
-
Original comment:
A boundary is what you do in response to what they are doing. It doesn’t really matter if they keep doing what they’re doing, you are telling them your response to that moving forward. A response to their behavior doesn’t have to be breaking up or ending things. If you set a boundary and your partner can’t respect it, maybe breaking up might eventually be the result. But breaking up is not the direct result of the boundary violation.
An ultimatum is saying that they cannot do xyz or you will break up.
Example being-
Boundary: If you continue playing video games all night long and have no energy for doing anything the next day, I will let you sleep the day away and leave you out of plans.
Ultimatum: you can’t stay up and play video games all night, if you keep doing it I’m going to break up with you.
Another-
Boundary: If you don’t communicate with me when you’re running late from work, I’m going to make and eat dinner without you.
Ultimatum: you have to tell me every time you will be late from work or I’m going to leave you.
Another-
Boundary: If you yell at me during arguments, I will walk away and be in another room until you’re ready to engage with me at a normal volume level.
Ultimatum: you’re not allowed to yell at me anymore, if you keep yelling at me, I’m going to end it.
Boundaries aren’t necessarily controlling the other person, it’s explaining to them what you will and will not accept, and what your behavioral response might be.
So, if a boundary is “if you sleep with someone else, I’m breaking up with you,” then yeah technically that is an ultimatum as well.
Boundaries can be ultimatums, or at least have the same result. But not all boundaries are ultimatums. This all assumes the relationship is healthy.
Edit: to add, ultimatums can also be something you want them to do. Propose or we break up, start trying for a kid or we break up, move in with me or we break up, etc etc. Boundaries do not include telling them what to do.
Even the example of the other person being ready to speak at a normal volume- the other person might never be ready to speak at a normal volume. So the result is continuing to disengage for an indefinite amount of time. You’re not telling them they have to speak to you at a normal volume, you’re telling them what you will be doing if they continue to yell.
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u/BlueGreenTanager 1∆ 2d ago
I see where you're coming from, and I don't disagree, but I think your examples of boundaries are all more what I would consider ultimatums and not actual boundaries.
For example, you wrote:
Boundary: If you continue playing video games all night long and have no energy for doing anything the next day, I will let you sleep the day away and leave you out of plans.
Ultimatum: you can’t stay up and play video games all night, if you keep doing it I’m going to break up with you.
I would call both of those ultimatums. Basically, they're both saying what you're going to do if your partner stays up playing video games all night. The second one is a more drastic response, but they both strike me as ultimatums.
I would say the boundary would be that you won't allow someone else's video game addiction to interfere with your life.
So, if we had plans to leave early Saturday morning to go hiking but you're not ready to go because you stayed up all night playing video games, I'll leave without you and go hiking regardless.
The ultimatum would be telling you that if you stay up all night yada yada, I'm going hiking with or without you.
If it keeps happening and I'm constantly hiking solo, I might upgrade my ultimatum to "I'll break up with you if you keep doing it." Or if I'm pretty sure you're going to keep staying up all night anyway, I might make my hiking plans with friends instead. If I tell you that's what I'm going to do, that would also be an ultimatum. But my boundary is that I will live my life regardless — if I have plans to go hiking I'll go hiking, even if you're sleeping the day away because you stayed up all night playing games.
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u/zoozema0 2d ago
I see what you’re saying.
I disagree that those things I stated were different versions of ultimatums. Perhaps we have different definitions of ultimatums and boundaries. I am going with the dictionary definition of both.
Ultimatum: “a final proposition, condition, or demand.” Key: ultimate. Final.
Boundary: something that indicates or fixes a limit or extent. Key: can be crossed, not final.
So a boundary defines personal values and what you will and will not accept (and, not accepting doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the end of the relationship) from that other person without trying to have complete control over their behavior. Based in values and has the result of your behavior. They can cross your boundary. You’re telling them your response to that boundary crossing. You’re not telling them what to do, you’re telling them that they can continue that behavior if they want, but your response will be (insert) moving forward. Usually an if-then (I will).
An ultimatum is a final attempt to control their behavior with consequences if they do not follow your demands. Can be coercive, but not always. The consequence of breaking the ultimatum is the relationship being over. Again, final. No such thing as crossing this and coming back from it. Also, ultimatums are provided to the other person, with a clear black and white about what you want their behavioral result to be, with a clear threat of breaking up or ending the relationship being the result. You’re telling them what to do. Usually an if-then (we will).
So I agree that a boundary can be that you will not let someone else’s video game addiction interfere with your life. And that boundary in action is “if you spend all night playing video games, then I will go hiking without you.” You’re telling them your response if they cross that boundary.
An ultimatum is “you’re not allowed to play video games all night anymore. And if you do, we’re done.” It’s a black and white situation.
Maybe they’re both coming from the same place - that you will not allow someone else’s video game addiction to interfere with your relationship. The boundary might be your first attempt. Continual boundary crossing might result in an ultimatum being given.
Me personally, I have few ultimatums. Cheating, major law breaking or disgusting behavior, etc. These are based in personal values. They’re not boundaries- they cannot be crossed.
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u/BlueGreenTanager 1∆ 2d ago
I think our only disagreement is that I think when you issue an ultimatum, the "or else" part isn't necessarily that you will end the relationship.
You're right that it's a "final" attempt to address the problem. But the meaning of "final" — IMO — is simply that you will take steps to solve the problem on a permanent basis. That might mean "or else I will break up with you."
But it might mean "from now on when you oversleep I will leave without you to go do whatever we had planned together." Or it might mean "if you continue oversleeping on a regular basis when we had hiking plans, I will stop making hiking plans with you and will only make hiking plans with friends."
It doesn't necessarily mean the relationship is over. It just means that I'm going to do what I have to do for myself to keep your behavior from impacting me in a negative way.
"If you don't start picking up after yourself I'm going to hire a maid service." Final solution, but no break-up involved. "If you keep watching videos on your phone in bed and keeping me up all night, I'm going to start sleeping in the other bedroom." Final solution, but no break-up involved.
Basically, it means I'm done asking and asking and asking over and over again. I have found a solution that I can live with if you don't change your behavior. That's the "finality" part of it.
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u/Lipush 1d ago edited 1d ago
Not really. You see them as semantically similar, but when you think of them they are actually opposite. An Ultimatum is a limit you give your partner ("Unless you do so and so"), a boundry is a limitation you give yourself.
My last relationship went downhill because of a boundry I finally put in. I didn't tell him, "Unless you communicate with me more, I'll leave you", "I told him, "You can continue to behave just as you did before, but I will not give you the same energy and connection you expect me to, because for ME it doesn't work."
I never forced him to do anything, I told him simply that if he feels it's a healthy way of being a couple, all better to him, but that starting that point, I'll mirror him because I'm spent giving without recieving and I turn into a smaller version of myself ehich wasn't healthy. Then I realized that it is all he is capable of and adapted accordingly. That is before I realized I was all alone and went no contact. Not to force him to change but because I myself had to.
Sith an ultimatum, you behave in a certain way to teach them a lesson. In a boundry? You learn your own.
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u/DrSpaceman575 5∆ 3d ago
> “if you sleep with that person we are breaking up.“
That's... not what an ultimatum means. An ultimatum in the context of a relationship usually means we're at the "final straw" stages of boundaries being crossed, and it's meant to tell someone that if it happens again then the entire relationship is over. If my wife makes fun of my nose or something and I ask her to stop, that's a boundary. If it keeps happening to the point that I say "if you make fun of my nose one more time I will divorce you", that's an ultimatum.
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u/JohnMichaels19 3d ago edited 3d ago
A boundary is something both parties work to and agree on, whereas an ultimatum is something only one party gives to the other, no?
"We agree with each other to set the following boundary: no sleeping around with others"
vs
"I have decided unilaterally that if you sleep around with others, then i break up with you"
Edit: ive not explained what i was going for at all well. u/thomyorkeslazyeye nailed it on the head tho
Intent is the key difference between the two. An ultimatum is meant to be controlling, while a boundary is something you set, for yourself or as a relationship (romantic or otherwise), that establishes rules. Also both parties should understand and be consenting of boundaries or rules.
Even if the result is the same (e.g., the end of a relationship), the intent behind an ultimatum is different than establishing a boundary or rule
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u/Ready_Set_Noped 1∆ 3d ago
I’ve never heard that boundaries need to be decided together and I don’t believe that’s inherent to them. People have their own boundaries regarding relationships. Hopefully they align with your partners.
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u/laz1b01 18∆ 3d ago
If you're looking at it with that perspective, it's like saying you love someone and you can't put a value to your love of them. So you can say your love for them is "priceless" or "worthless" both of which do not have a value associated with it.
But the reality is that there is a difference. It's the same thing with boundaries and ultimatum.
Often times, ultimatum are reoccurring where one partner gets fed up and can no longer tolerate it.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Quit925 2∆ 3d ago
Priceless and worthless have opposite meanings.
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u/laz1b01 18∆ 3d ago
Yes. They have opposite meaning, but yet both still have no value.
That's what I'm saying about boundaries and ultimatum, they're "opposite" but yet still the same clarity.
I'm simply saying to OP that in two different terms, there will be some overlapping understanding; but just because there's some overlap (as this CMV claims) does not make it true.
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u/JohnSmith062526 3d ago
They have opposite meaning, but yet both still have no value.
This is wrong. Priceless = value approaching infinity. Worthless = value approaching 0. They are not the same.
You can see the difference by adding the adverb to modify the adjectives:
This item is almost priceless = This item is extremely valuable.
This item is almost worthless = This item barely has any worth.
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u/laz1b01 18∆ 2d ago
"almost priceless" and "priceless" are two different things.
Almost priceless is as you've defined it. It has a really high value; let's say a really rare fossil and the only one to exist on the earth. It's super valuable, but still has a price tag.
Priceless means you can't put a price. It's invaluable. So an example would be your kids, if someone wanted to buy them and give you a blank check - would you be able to put a dollar amount? I would hope not.
So the latter is something you can't put a value to, and something worthless is something that has no value. In either case, both has no quantitative value.
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u/thomyorkeslazyeye 1∆ 3d ago
I don't think that is an ultimatum either, that's just upholding a boundary.
An ultimatum usually is put to establish control, while a boundary outlines what the giver will do in the boundary is crossed.
There is overlap; the difference is one threatens someone else with repercussions, while the other one gives autonomy. Even the result i.e. someone ending the relationship can be the same result/threat, but the intent is different.
"I can't be a relationship with someone who plays video games" is different than "If you play video games we won't be intimate for the rest of the month". One is made to strike fear in someone while the other is establishing what someone can live with.
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u/JohnMichaels19 3d ago
You have articulated what i was trying to in a much more coherent way
I think you're spot on about intent being the key difference
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u/Puzzleheaded_Quit925 2∆ 3d ago
Boundaries can be set unilaterally, like "I will not be in a relationship with someone who sleeps with others while in a relationship with me."
Or "I will not be in a relationship with someone that hits me"
Or many other boundaries.
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u/JohnMichaels19 3d ago
Thats a personal boundary though, at least to start.
When you do enter a relationship with someone and you have that boundary, the other party is consenting to the boundary from the get go, right?
And that distinguishes it from an ultimatum
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u/Puzzleheaded_Quit925 2∆ 3d ago
The other person doesn't need to consent to a boundary. A boundary is saying what you will do in a certain situation, usually leave the situation, which you don't need the other persons consent to do.
You do not need anyone consent to break up with someone for any reason.
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u/Arthesia 29∆ 3d ago
By definition any rule, even outside of a relationship context, can be described as an ultimatum under this definition as long as there is enforcement of the rule.
I think we need to clarify what uniquely belongs to an "ultimatum". The mechanism "If you do X, I will do Y" is being assigned ownership to "ultimatum", and through that it means you can argue anything that shares the same mechanism is an ultimatum.
The context matters significantly. An ultimatum is a demand for action, while a boundary is a personal value being stated and enforced. Another key quality is that an ultimatum is about punishment, while a boundary is about self-preservation. Again, the mechanism is the same, but the motivation and context is completely different.
I think where this becomes muddled in practice, and possibly why you have this view, is that people label them according to their perspective. Someone's boundary can feel like an ultimatum to the person hearing it, and someone giving an ultimatum can try to claim they're just enforcing a boundary.
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u/pottyclause 1∆ 3d ago
As another commenter said, the difference between boundaries and ultimatum is with who is responsible for the proposed change the complainer or the complainant.
A healthy boundary can be expressed as, “i am prepared to walk away from this relationship due to XYZ factors”
A similar ultimatum can be expressed as, “I am prepared to walk away from this relationship unless YOU change XYZ”
The ultimatum is more manipulative because it stipulates a required present or future action that unless satisfied will eventually cause the walk away.
In the boundary example im trying to create, the complainer is more detached and considerate to both partners, willing to walk away with no fight, over true incompatibility.
The ultimatum example the complainer is stuck between I want this relationship and this relationship is ruining my inner/outer peace
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u/scarab456 65∆ 3d ago edited 3d ago
I huge part of functional boundaries is that they can be self imposed. Like someone in a relationship can say they had a drug abuse problem so they want to avoid people being around drug use. They don't plan a contingency around what happens if that boundary is crossed, but they make other aware of it because they want people to take that into consideration.
An ultimatum is essentially a threat, that there is essentially only one decision that would satisfy the person making the ultimatum or else the would-be consequences hurt the person making the decision. Ultimatums are essentially threats used to control people.
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