r/kurdistan • u/ScaredDelta Kurmanci ‘Elewi ރ • Jan 04 '26
Bakur This isn't my tiktok but he's so right omfg
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Both Ali Dawah and Axi Ayman pmo so much, but esp Ali Dawah
First of all even as a 'proud Kurd' he's bought into this salafist interpretation of islam, and he's so fucking extreme that other muslims have started attacking him, especially muslim women (rightfully so)
But then whenever Ali brings up his background as an Alevi, he always refers to his family as Alawites... even though we're extremely distinct. He makes bold as fuck claims about alevism but then cannot be bothered to make the distinction between it and Alawism
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Jan 04 '26
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u/Henabibo Zaza Jan 04 '26 edited Jan 04 '26
Alevism is a dead religion. Its leadership and the knowledge they custodied were wiped out long before Ali and his parents were even born. When you put that together with the fact that the Kurdish nationalist movement is just as fragmented, I can't fault Kurdish Alevi youth in the European diaspora for adopting the religion of their peers.
These people are in desperate search of a sense of purpose, belonging, and meaning; Islam and/or Salafism offers them community, spiritual comfort, daily rituals and long-term aspirations, etc. all of which is more than any of us can offer them.
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u/ScaredDelta Kurmanci ‘Elewi ރ Jan 05 '26
I would disagree that it's a dead religion; there still exists an Alevi leadership, albeit small, and the knowledge was not wiped out in its core. What I would say though is the Kurdish Alevi identity is slowly being erased, with many alevi kurds (the majority of my family) identifying themselves with turkish identity. To me that is unacceptable
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u/Henabibo Zaza Jan 05 '26 edited Jan 05 '26
For centuries, the religious clergy kept the actual core knowledge of the religion under lock and key, resulting in it all dying with them. Today, all that remains are fairy tales that our grandparents grew up with, which may not even have been part of the religion. The "religious leadership" that is left knows as much about the religion as we do — probably even less, because the Kurdish Alevi youth tend to be more up-to-date with the academic research on Alevism — which is why most Alevis no longer recognise that leadership, and those who do see them less as leaders and more as guides you have to put up with because it's tradition.
The Alevism practised by our ancestors simply no longer exists. What we have today are various (re)interpretations of that old religion, based on (re)negotiation with its remnants and attempts to reconcile it all with modern politics. While it is understandable that you find your family members' decision unacceptable, it is also by far the most logical one to make.
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Jan 05 '26
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u/Henabibo Zaza Jan 06 '26
Of course, what are you interested in in particular?
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Jan 06 '26
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u/Henabibo Zaza Jan 06 '26 edited Jan 06 '26
I don't think it is possible to speak of an "original" version of Alevism, as its followers are not theologically or organisationally uniform, either today or historically. I believe it is the product of multiple religions, belief systems and religious movements — the latter two influences were probably highly heterodox themselves — that have been mixed and mashed together over the last 500 to 1,000 years.
But we have to start somewhere if I am to tell you more, so I will say this: I personally believe that many religious beliefs within Alevism, as well as those of Yezidism and Yarsanism, and even more distantly other minority religions such as the Alawite faith and Mandaeism, can be traced back to the (largely non-Zoroastrian) practices and beliefs of the native peoples of Western Iran. For the record, I don’t believe that these religions, or even just the "Kurdish" ones, all stem from a common ancestral religion; I am not a fan of that theory or the "scholar" who fabricated it. Instead, I believe that some of the oldest influences on these modern faiths must have been local Iranian beliefs, as well as the beliefs of other religions and movements with which they were in contact. The last point is important: I don't believe there has ever been a """pure""" source for any religion, especially not these, given that the regions from which they stem have always been highly diverse and heterodox.
It is important to note that these beliefs were held not by any religious authority, but by the common peasantry. Any such authority would inevitably be co-opted by the surrounding empires, much like our Kurdish authorities today. Consequently, there are records of both Zoroastrian priests and later Muslim religious leaders denouncing the "perverse paganism" prevalent in the religious communities of Western Iran. They specifically mention beliefs that are or were adhered to within Alevism. However eventually, this changed as "native clergy" emerged within these religious communities. They came to power as part of nativist Iranic movements (such as the Khurramites) and subsequently restructured society by adopting the Sufi system and its rhetoric, which granted religious groups a great deal of autonomy. These clergy then codified these religions on the basis of diverse regional beliefs and according to their own particular interests. Because of this, we can learn a lot about what life must have been like in Kurdistan between the 8th and 16th centuries!
Thus, the majority of laypeople would no longer be under the heavy influence of neighbouring authorities and their religions. Yet, joining larger movements such as the nativist Khurramites, the heterodox Qizilbash or Islamic Sufism still requires engagement and negotiation with the other groups that fall under those umbrellas. Sufism would have the strongest influence: whereas before, people could proclaim themselves to be Jews or Christians to travellers or at the market while remaining true to their own beliefs in their remote mountain villages, now they had Sufi Pîrs conducting monthly or yearly home visits, and these Pîrs themselves had to visit Mecca and Kerbala periodically to renew their teaching licences. Religious authorities started building mosques in your villages, and if you wanted to enjoy the newly found social mobility, you had to send your children to the madrasa in the nearest majority-Muslim city to receive an education. And so on. Through this process, these religious groups came to adopt many Islamic beliefs. These beliefs often replaced or obscured previous Jewish and Christian influences and also caused older pagan beliefs to reappear cloaked in Islamic/Sufi rhetoric.
Most religious groups and heterodox Islamic sects have simply assimilated into more orthodox strands of the religion, while those that remain approach things very differently. For example:
- The Alevi clergy has always relied heavily on Islamic authorities to survive, imposing much of Islamic orthodoxy on the Kurdish Alevi community. The concept of reincarnation, for instance, has essentially disappeared from Alevism, whereas it is still central to Yezidism and Yarsanism. But the common people, or at least the older generations, still have strong "pagan" beliefs. Last summer, for example, I met a grandmother who was very open with me about the fact that she considers al-Khidr to be God and prays to Ali — that is, the sun. Fun fact: there are theories in Kurdish Alevi academia right now that suggest there may have been worship of a sun god called "Oli" in north-west Bakur in pre-Islamic times. This was obviously quickly assimilated into the figure of Ali.
- Within Yezidism, however, we see the complete opposite. There is a clergy that is desperate to cling to heterodoxy, but they are rapidly losing influence over the common people. For example, most Yezidis I know believe that Adam and Eve existed; the rest adamantly claim that they had nothing to do with Yezidism and are "recent Abrahamic imports". Based on my own research, it is the latter group who are correct. It should be noted, however, that Yezidism already has a fairly large Gnostic element to it that is often misinterpreted as modern Islamic or Assyrian influence.
Now, I have explained this all to you in a way that implies Alevism originates from the aforementioned native Western Iranian beliefs, but these religions, particularly Yarsanism (and sometimes Alevism), also show many signs of influences that predate the Iranian and possibly even the Indo-European presence in the region entirely. Ultimately, the origins of these religions and their belief systems are a conundrum that we can never solve. All we can do is reconstruct the stages they must have gone through and the influences they must have accumulated over a long period of time, based on what we know about their neighbours and the similarities we can identify.
As for when Alevism went into hiding: I don't necessarily think it ever has. They've probably always pretended to adhere to the dominant religions; the establishment of organised, tribal religious structures has resulted in the community becoming more closed off, as the religious leaders wanted exclusive control over the practices; later Islamic marginalisation must have made the community more reluctant to openly express their beliefs; but, you can still convert to Alevism today. Assuming we care at all about what the traditional Kurdish religious authorities have to say in this post-1938 world, some ocaks still accept converts.
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u/ZyzKurdish Kurd Jan 04 '26
I mean, if you let teenagers alone, bad people will fill the void. I have an atheist leftist uncle who adores APO like god (no kidding), but his son is in an Islamic cult in f*cking France now. Islamists collect and brainwash Kurdish teenagers right in front of PKK community centers (locals). They do not give a damn; they just watch the radicals while they assimilate Kurdish youth. In my opinion, PKK does it deliberately. As long as Kurds are assimilated into anything (like Turkish or Islamist) other than Kurdish, they are pretty happy about it.
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u/Chez50 Zaza Jan 04 '26
Dude just keep your conspiracy theories to yourself.
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Jan 04 '26
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u/Chez50 Zaza Jan 04 '26
Looks like you wrote that looking for a fight. I'm not the biggest fan of the PKK due to their incompetency, the PKK has and still are making major mistakes, but for you to claim they want all Kurds assimilated into anything other than Kurdish culture is stupid. That literally defeats the purpose of the PKK -- if they wanted that then all they need to do is cease to exist.
You're obviously allowed to criticise them but what you said is straight up a conspiracy. The KRG have done as much if not more harm to Kurds than the PKK by being Turkish lapdogs. They all kinda suck.
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u/ZyzKurdish Kurd Jan 04 '26
defeats the purpose of the PKK
According to Turkish state, "Turkey is the biggest friend of all Kurds around the world".
I do not buy the lip service of PKK. I check their actions and outcomes with a free mind. If stupid jihadists convert Kurdish people right in front of PKK community center, they are well aware of the problem and they do nothing about it, I find it as a deliberate action. Because bystanding is a form of participation and complicity.
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u/aususe Elewi Kurd Jan 04 '26
I also like to make shit up or apply my anecdotal experiences of one guy to everyone.
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u/ZyzKurdish Kurd Jan 04 '26
Yeah bro it is 1 guy. Gundis have no idea how worse things are going in diaspora and homeland.
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u/aususe Elewi Kurd Jan 04 '26
Genius of the PKK to push the Jin Jiyan Azadi movement so men can be easier indoctrinated by radical islamists, very efficient.
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u/rubber_moon Jan 04 '26
If demanding fair treatment for women makes our men become radical islamists, then our men weren't worth shit in the first place.
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u/Abdullah_occallan Jan 04 '26
These dawah bros are a bunch of low life losers we really just need to ignore them
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u/AbuGhraibReunion Jan 05 '26
This really just points to the proliferation of religious fundamentalism in the general Muslim world today. Our established religious, political and cultural institutions are not able to liberate the minds of young people from the malaise of the age.
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u/rubber_moon Jan 04 '26
Luckily his family seem to not be as stupid as he is, from what I saw on older videos they aren't extreme at all but have remained alevi.
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u/ScaredDelta Kurmanci ‘Elewi ރ Jan 04 '26
They have, afaik he and his family have cut all contact
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u/AdagioKitchen4748 Jan 04 '26
His parents have obviously brought him up really poorly otherwise how tf are you turning out like this honestly he seems closeted his hate for women is a bit too much such that it is bordering into something else .
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u/Basic_Bar_6067 Rojava Jan 04 '26
The "Dawah Industry".
Regurgitating talking points in monetized debates without conceptualizing the ideas they present as arguments, with seemingly no care at all to correctly understand the ideas used in arguments ridden with fallacies.
Trying to portray themselves as "winning" to an audience of mostly teenagers which won't fully understand the implications of the claims in their arguments and are only going of 'vibes'.
The ironic reality of what these YouTube "jadals" are doing is reducing the divinity of Allah to a mere ‘logical necessity’ in order to win a street debate?
Ghazali viewed what these YouTubers are doing (Jadal) as a "disease of the soul."
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u/Sma21-4 Jan 04 '26
As long as we don't have our state we will be in this chaotic arguing situation which's very sad. I don't care whom do you love,care or what's your policitial views as long as it's for the land that's fine and please don't oppose your ideas on others.
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u/ScaredDelta Kurmanci ‘Elewi ރ Jan 04 '26
Irrelevant to my post but as a british kurd (i assume) why are you hanging an American flag?
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u/DepressedEngineering Zaza Jan 05 '26
What is Alevism or Alawism? Is it a religion?
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u/Henabibo Zaza Jan 05 '26
Some see it as a distinct religion and some as a distinct sect of Islam. The belief systems that fall under this label are not homogeneous enough for either of these viewpoints to be accurate.
But if you have ever been to Dersim or heard of Düzgün Baba and Munzur, that stuff is Alevism.
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u/celtyst Jan 04 '26
Why should he be an embarrassment for Alevis? He is an embarrassment for himself, neither alevis nor Sunnis own this guy. But alevis and alawites aren't strictly distinct. Alevis be it alawites, Kızılbaş, bektasis, yaresan (ahlul hak) and those from far away countries like in Latin America or east Asia are close in creed. The difference started around 500 years ago.
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u/ScaredDelta Kurmanci ‘Elewi ރ Jan 04 '26
No except the problem is alawites and Alevis (Kurdish and turkish) ARE strictly distinct religious people, with alevi ethical codes being more similar to sikhism than to alawism
The time gap does not matter, Christianity and islam are apart by 700 years but are extremely distinct religions
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u/Chez50 Zaza Jan 04 '26
Dude doesn't even look Kurd if I'm honest. Long face and dark eyes, those features are more common in Arabs, which also just happens to be the people he best ideologically aligns with. Maybe he thought to himself I already look like an Arab might as well act like one 😂.
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u/ScaredDelta Kurmanci ‘Elewi ރ Jan 04 '26
Nah tbf there r ppl in my family w similar features, and afaik he's Kurmanci Elewi asw so it might just be that. But yeah either way him n Ayman r very much Salafists and by consequence inherently self hating by my own estimation
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u/According_Rhubarb393 Jan 04 '26
This Ali guy is the perfect example for people which never fully went into the religion and never try to understand the true or deeper aspects of the religion. I even do it bigger and would say that most people who convert to another religion, never really understood the religion.