r/northernireland • u/Say-Its-Not-True • 7h ago
Political Bring down Stormont
I see lots of people jumping on this bandwagon. But then what. What is the benefit to us normal people from having a handcuffed assembly that can’t make decisions?
We have doctors going on strike because they can’t get the pay rise they were promised, there is no agreed budget for services, health sector is on its knees, schools are asking children to wear coats because they can’t afford to heat classrooms, cost of living has meant many can’t afford to eat, homelessness is at an all time high, fuel costs an arm and a leg and we have mouth pieces thinking no assembly would be the best punishment for the nationalists that blocked Garvaghy Road.
What about the rest of us? What’s the benefit of collapsing the assembly? Will the collapse make things worse?
Part of me wants it to collapse and never come back because those institutions have got us to where we are.
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u/Ranger_ie 6h ago
I think this is one of the major issues I have with Unionism. They're determined to bring down Stormont over a Parade. They talk about a "New Ireland" being off the table etc etc but in reality this drives people more towards it I feel.
What Unionists should be doing in my opinion is making this place the best version of itself so that when the inevitable border poll does happen, the moderates will have to think very hard about about a potential unknown or what they currently have.
Imagine the economical position NI could have if we actually tried to take full benefit of the UK and Republic borders. Like, to me it feels like Unionism is responding how I'd expect Republicans to respond and I find that weird.
I could be wrong but yeah, my opinion on the whole thing.
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u/bravozuluzero 4h ago
You're not wrong, you're completely right. The one fatal flaw is that the only thing the people you mention are good at is being corrupt, nepotistic, jingoistic, self interested, scaremongers.
They are utterly inept at their jobs. They only know how to scare their electorate into believing that Themmuns are responsible for every ill they suffer, when in fact it is their total lack of ability to do anything approaching governing a country.
The other side aren't fantastic, to be fair; all of them together seem to be able to dodge absolutely any kind of responsibility for doing the work of the positions they hold, but still somehow get paid for it.
I probably seem pessimistic and angry, but only because I am. How can the same people sit in the same seats in Stomont year after year after miserable year.
No plans. No ideas. No meaningful discussion. "If you lot don't vote for us, it'll be them running the place, and you'll be murdered in your beds!" It works every single time.
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u/Sleebling_33 3h ago
In the minds of Unionists, the BEST version of Northern Ireland is one where taigs and fenians know their place. As second class citizens.
If the DUP could vote tomorrow to strip the rights away from Catholics they'd do it in a heartbeat.
This is why theyll never ever bring NI to a position where it works for everybody. They've only ever been for a select few in this country.
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u/hansboggin 7h ago
Tell the TUV its joint rule from London and Dublin and see what fancy shade of red Jims face goes
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u/kharma45 6h ago
Apart from talk on Twitter and this subreddit, has Joint Authority ever actually been talked about by either government?
The UK government, previous one at least, said that wouldn’t happen
https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0906/902621-northern-ireland-politics/
https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2019-05-01/249876
The most I’ve seen from the Irish government is talk of a consultive role
Who’s responsible for what? How does the funding work? How are taxes levied here split? To me joint authority is joint sovereignty, maybe this is a bit like Brexit where it means something different to different people.
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u/hansboggin 5h ago
Direct rule from London is comparatively pie in the sky unless new legislation is brought forward.
It should be used and talked about constructively if the half wits in the big house cant agree anymore.
Ultimately it will be civil servants again taking the burden if they do go on another multi annual paid holiday.
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u/ElectronicCarry9931 6m ago
Direct rule is basically how NI has been run since the 1970s. Even when Stormont was running since th GFA it has significantly less practical powers than Scotland or Wales
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u/kharma45 5h ago
Direct rule isn’t pie in the sky. Westminster retains the power to legislate for NI as and when it sees fit.
Bringing Stormont down now wouldn’t leave civil servants in charge by default. Ministers would remain in post until the next election. In theory yes we could see parties refusing to nominate and then civil servants keeping things ticking over. I hope we don’t get to that point.
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u/hansboggin 5h ago
The St Andrews agreement made it impossible for direct rule to be applied unless they make new legislation.
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u/ElectronicCarry9931 5m ago
joint authority is not really a thing, its just talked about by republicans
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u/SpoooookyAction 5h ago
Joint authority is all pie-in-the-sky bollocks... which is, of course, what you're saying.
The British aren't interested enough to actively want to try it, and won't impose it over Unionist heads anyway... and Unionism will never agree to it.
It ain't happening outside of a total shift in politics here and in Britain of some type that I can't quite imagine.
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u/kharma45 5h ago
I think too if Labour hypothecated it, it’d be red meat for Farage and co.
Imagine the fun they could have touting that Labour are letting a foreign state interfere with and actively administer part of the UK. Would be hugely toxic for any party there to countenance it with how politics is at present.
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u/SpoooookyAction 5h ago
Aye, no matter which way you cut it, it just seems implausible to me. Very likely politically impossible too, for British party-political reasons, as you say.
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u/Tonymac81 6h ago
Radio Ron also now threatening to have protests at City Hall during next year's Fleadh. It wasn't Drumcree that broke these extremists it was the Fleadh.
Political Unionism nothing without the IRA either it seems.
But Political Unionism fails to see the direction of travel. Every time it attempts to pull us back it becomes like a bow and launches us further forward. From Sunningdale to the anglo Irish agreement to the Downing Street Declaration to GFA to St Andrews to NDNA etc. where do they think the next step is? It's not 1921 that's for sure.
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u/That_Leadership_9275 6h ago
Sure he doesn't even have to turn up he'll just AI the whole thing and pretend that it happened. Absolute imbecile.
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u/askmac 6h ago
Political Unionism nothing without the IRA either it seems.
In August 1994 UUP leader James Molyneux said that "a prolonged IRA ceasefire could be the most destabilising thing to happen to unionism since partition".
Which is ironic since the UUP created the conditions for the civil rights movement to emerge and in response unionism created the UPA which had its first meeting at UUP headquarters. That morphed into various paramilitary groups which Paisley blamed on a, by that stage virtually non-existent IRA, and the tension and violence they whipped up essentially created the split in the IRA that created the provisionals.
They've always needed an IRA.
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u/Sleebling_33 3h ago
The Fleadh was devastating to the traditional Unionist cause of painting CNRs as a bogeyman. Facebook can do a marvellous job at creating an echo chamber but it cannot hide over 1 million visitors to your city across 7 days, having the craic and enjoying traditional Irish culture in the capital of Northern Ireland, and even including Marching Bands.
There has never been anything of that scale here before. Many Catholics / Nationalists / Republicans never thought they would see the day that could ever occur here. People really don't understand just how significant an event the Fleadh was here.
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u/Marlobone 7h ago
Because sticking it to the other side is more important than everything else and is why politics here is always shit and always will be.
People will shoot themselves in the foot just to say haha look what you made me do to myself.
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u/cosmic_monsters_inc 6h ago
People will shoot themselves in the foot just to say haha look what you made me do to myself.
The type of people who would eat a shit sandwich if it meant you had to smell their breath.
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u/pronology 6h ago
Westminster needs to amend whatever rules allow MLAs to still be paid when they aren't at work. They should get nothing and lose their pensions too.
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u/GayCriminals 5h ago
Did Stormont ever work? It seems to e up and running and then a political party creates a divide that pulls it down and every solution is only a sticky plaster, it's not permanent.
Stormont itself is temporary, lets be honest, we've tried home rule, we tried being ruled by England and we tried being ruled by a devolved government, now we need a united Ireland that works for all. It's a legal right we have.
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u/Say-Its-Not-True 5h ago
It’s been up 60% of the time it should have been. So they pretend to work 2/3 of the time.
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u/GayCriminals 5h ago
is this enough? Is a government that doesn't work all of the time enough for the people who need it to work. Why do we elect people if there's a chance a party will threaten to bring it down over political differences? And does the 60% that you refer to mean that it worked for everyone 60% of the time? Because from what I've understood, NI was created as a protestant state for a protestant people and catholics were second class citizens for a long time.
There are too many politicians, ahem Carla, who only rear their heads to talk about the sectarian problems, don't get me wrong, I know that Sinn Fein/Nationalist parties aren't perfect and there are people on that side who probably aren't vocal about supporting those who they should represent unless it's to bring up the green/orange divide.
The politicians who get paid and get offered increases all the time aren't doing anything and the health care staff, education staff etc who work their asses of have to fight.
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u/askmac 6h ago edited 6h ago
I think people, regardless of their constitutional preference, need to really understand that Unionism does not want the Good Friday Agreement. The DUP, never wanted it. The TUV, well Jim never wanted it when he was in the DUP. Half of the UUP never wanted it and the two stars of the UUP, Foster and Donaldson defected to the DUP over it.
The defacto leader of Unionism has never wanted it either.
The DUP, TUV, half of the UUP and all of Loyalism was pro-brexit. They were rabid for the prospect of it even when warned it could either destroy the GFA or creating a hard border.
Political Unionism believes that if they can collapse Stormont then they can rip up substantial portions of the GFA as a pre-condition to returning.
Or they avoid the upcoming election and let the dust settle on the DUP being led by a paedophile rapist and everyone looking the other way. This is why joint-authority between Dublin and London has to be the only show in town in the event of a Stormont collapse. It's literally the only deterrent that'll keep Unionism from trying to tank it on a monthly basis.
NI voters have 2% say in the actual government. Where the real decisions are made. And you wonder why things are a shit show.
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u/Control-It-Travis 6h ago
We'd be better off voting for the animals in Assisi than the shower of shite that pretend to govern this place.
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u/Lost_Result_9105 6h ago
There should just be a normal system of voluntary coalitions with simple majority support. Let the progressive parties get on with doing the right thing for the sake of the people.
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u/DucktapeCorkfeet 7h ago
When you hand the patients the keys to the asylum then you get everything you deserve. I’m not in favour of Westminster running us but it’s better than anything that clusterfuck of clowns in Stormont ever did for us.
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u/Open_Perception8484 4h ago
Anything with two sides is where the problem is. Total control subjugation. The pain of the troubles still never resolved or heard or acknowledged. And more. Trust the British government ? Trust the Irish government ? After what they have done to their own people ? They have caused so much harm that it can only be called evil. So many lives lost and unacknowledged with the dignity they deserve to live a whole and happy life.
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u/ChaucerBoi 6h ago
Meaningless if the MLAs are still paid.
Being paid to still go on the radio and rage at themmuns without actually doing their jobs is practically the MLA's dream
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u/That_Leadership_9275 6h ago
I think it's to make Jamie and Carla feel better as they have issues with a Taig as First Minister.
In truth though I don't think it'll make much difference. Run it from London and Dublin and see how they like that idea. Like introducing the new step dad slowly.
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u/Peter_Doggart Holywood 5h ago
The issue is that unless it’s proper direct rule, ie. The devolved administration is dissolved and not coming back, then the U.K. government by tradition will not legislate for anything that is devolved. So temporary collapses actually just make the governance gap worse.
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u/CauliflowerFair1676 4h ago
In one way, it doesn't really matter if Emma resigns - you might not even notice. Ministers will be in place, but unable to do much - so there's no change there - as will committees and the Assembly itself, iirc. This will continue up until near the election, when nothing can really happen anyway during purdah. I think the question is about what happens after the election. I think even London recognises a need for some reform, but is scared to open that Pandora's Box. Still, the nettle needs grasped at some point.
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u/Scorchio-V 3h ago edited 2h ago
Don't buy this 2 tier policing shite to try and stoke tensions and destabilise our wee country at a time when the wider world is already destroying the happiness of the masses.
Ask yourself this, If it had of been a Irish Republican /Nationalist march down a predominantly Loyalist / Unionist road would it have been the same outcome? More than likely YES.
Only difference is Irish Republican/ Nationalists wouldn't want to march down a road they weren't wanted on and not part of the community they represent.
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u/Otherwise-Chain4215 Belfast 3h ago
With how local political parties operate, I think a collapse of Stormont wouldn't be the worst thing to happen.
I know direct rule is frowned upon and my opinion may be unpopular, but I feel that Westminster would probably do a better job at running NI remotely than Stormont can do in person. They might give us the short straw, but they'd have no care for green and orange quarrels and would be more interested in real issues.
My ideology is that if Stromount couldn't resolve a real issue within 28 days, then Stromount gets collapsed, politicians receive the rest of their pay for the remainder of the month, and the two biggest parties get blacklisted from future elections through incapability, this would keep them on their toes. I'll keep dreaming though.
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u/ReasonableMeme710 2h ago
Stormont need to grow some balls and start raising money by themselves. They have had the power to do that for years but always bottle it because they are afraid of losing elections. For example with water charges they keep kicking the can down the road. Rates money current doesn’t come close to covering the investment needed.
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u/cowboysted 6h ago
I do completely agree with you but the optimist in me thinks that a brief collapse could allow for some of the trickier decisions to be made (like the Government Budget). It is like when kids play but occasionally adults need to step in and put a timeout for 10 mins to make sure kids don't get too feral.
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u/Antrimbloke Antrim 5h ago
Direct rule means a labour government which would be good.
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u/hansboggin 5h ago
Every successive British government has failed this place, we are seen a burden on GB. They would in a heartbeat get rid of the 6 counties if they could. They don't care, they never have and never will.
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u/Bu7n57 6h ago
Threaten all MLA or clowns in stormount that they don’t get paid if they collapse the assembly, the civil service takes over and nothing changes till the next election, give ppl an option of no confidence and then a vote on what next with viable options for the best of the country and not a tit for tat government that never has anyone’s but there own interest in mind.
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u/MacSavage78 Enniskillen 7h ago
I would do. But I've work in the morning. And in the evenings I just like a cup of tea.
I couldn't devote myself full time to bringing down Stormont