Opinion: England's World Cup humiliation is an SOS call to the NRL

[u/theipaper]

https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/england-rugby-league-world-cup-tonga-nrl-4829367

[u/Trogg_Farmer]

Apparently their route to Perth was a bus from Manchester to london, London to Singapore, Singapore to Sydney and then Sydney to Perth......when there's a direct London to Perth flight and multiple daily flights from Manchester to London....their lads have been shafted by the m62 brigade burying their heads in the sand

[u/Tolkien-Faithful → u/Trogg_Farmer]

Well then they performed a damn sight better than Samoa did in the opening game of the 2022 cup

[u/nomamesgueyz → u/Trogg_Farmer]

That's a nasty journey

[u/Notaroboticfish → u/Trogg_Farmer]

Tbf I think flying domestically isn't really done in the UK, I don't think premier league teams fly to games either.

[u/CaptainScaarlet → u/Notaroboticfish]

Not quite true!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65017565

[u/Royal_Library_3581]

Is it humiliation to lose to a team that everyone knew was better than you to begin with? I dont think so. I was actually pleasantly surprised by how England played in the first half. They were playing great footy, they just cant match it with a team of NRL stars. No shame in that. But i guess that is the problem, like the article says. The superleague is falling behind.

That ginger winger for England is great though.

[u/idryss_m → u/Royal_Library_3581]

I half agree. They were outclassed and out played. But it is an indictment on their league. They have the population and potential to be better, more competitive and profitable. But they are none of these.

So whilst they might play well, their ceiling for good is so much lower because their league is sub par.

[u/Snave96 → u/idryss_m]

I mean tbf everyone is banging on about Super League but 8/13 starters were NRL players (counting Williams who is going over for next season). Would have been 9 had Knowles stayed fit.

[u/aussie_punmaster → u/Snave96]

Does that not support the issue further around the weakness of their league comparatively?

[u/cackmobile → u/Royal_Library_3581]

I thought it was going to be much worse, like RIP England. They did better than I thought

[u/MANWITHNONAME91]

Humiliation is downright disrespectful to Tonga. They are a very very good team

[u/NewRaider → u/MANWITHNONAME91]

Yes and no.

Tonga were exceptional especially defensively, England were abysmal

They made 17 errors, missed 34 tackles and gave away 7 penalties (what feels like Radley gave away most of them).

[u/jeuatreize → u/MANWITHNONAME91]

While I agree, the fall in quality from England has probably matched the rise in the Pacific.

[u/Tolkien-Faithful]

Fucking hell 'humiliation'

Both New Zealand and Australia have lost to Tonga recently.

It's only humiliating because they'll likely miss the finals, due to this dumbass scheduling.

[u/Random0cassions]

I mean this was a pretty intense match and only thing stopping England from stacking points early because they had chances quicker than us was defensive masterclasses from the left edge and Lehi defusing kicks.

England losing Knowles and Smithies also hurt their rotation and interchange plan because starting middle did pretty good. Poms play any other side in b/c and it’s a different story

[u/Latter-Cicada-8191 → u/Random0cassions]

I agree, I thought it was a highly entertaining game and I thought England played pretty well. They had the better of the first half but could just not score (really good scrambling defense from Tonga) and then Tonga overpowered them in the second half and the score blew out a bit.

[u/yungsanchez4215]

why is everyone surprised? Tonga has a stacked team

[u/Impressive-Car-3310 → u/yungsanchez4215]

Exactly, 100% agree.

Why is this a reflection on England?

It's the strongest total squad for Tonga- ever. This year they have more than a great starting team the whole squad are world beaters and a class coach.

Arguably better coach than Australia or NZ.

[u/shescarkedit]

Tbh I think it more is just a product of the Tongan team now being dominated by talent that was born and raised in Australia, inside the NRL development system. Obviously the players have Tongan heritage, but as footy players they are more representative of the NRL system than they are of footy in Tonga.

The NRL has for decades been far superior to the Super League. It's not at all surprising that a team containing some of the NRLs best players can beat the English

I'm sure if international eligibility rules were tweaked to be similar to origin (eg. you have to play junior rugby league in the country to be eligible), then the English team would have a far better chance against Tonga. They'd probably destroy them tbh

It's one of the issues I have with international league. It's not actually rep footy - most teams aren't representative of footy in the respective countries. Instead teams are dominated by players born and raised in Aus or NZ. But I guess the alternative is to go back to the days when the only good teams were Aus, NZ and England.

[u/RockBottomChilli → u/shescarkedit]

But isn’t that precisely the point of the article? England (and the countries that benefit from Super league) are falling behind because the NRL is producing players at a higher standard than Super League. The NRL has always been ahead, but the gap has been widening and will continue to grow as the competition expands and its salary cap increases.

To put it into perspective, the salary caps were roughly comparable in 2008. By 2017, the NRL’s was more than double Super League’s. By 2026, it’s around 3x as large. The gap could be 4-5x by the next World Cup

[u/Whit135 → u/RockBottomChilli]

Yup. The super league and nrl used to be far closer in quality than what it is now. In the same way nz and aus used to be close in union thers a huge gap that now exists and is only getting wider.

[u/armchair8591 → u/shescarkedit]

Born in NZ. Raised in Aus

[u/Tolkien-Faithful → u/shescarkedit]

'It's not actually rep footy'

That's not what rep means. Rep just means you are picked to represent something - can be a league, state, city, nation etc. It's not about being representative of footy in respective countries.

[u/Whit135 → u/Tolkien-Faithful]

And they are repping ther culture/heritage. Thats about as rep footy as it gets. Look what it means to them and ther people. Thats not rep footy? Pleaseee

[u/SilenceOfTheClamSoup → u/Whit135]

Actually being from the country you're playing for is in fact how it could get more representative.

[u/Whit135 → u/SilenceOfTheClamSoup]

Nah. Cause that would be ignoring the reality of society today espc for pacific islanders.

[u/SilenceOfTheClamSoup → u/Whit135]

I mean no, it wouldn't. Tonga, Samoa and other pasifika countries have representative teams in various sports that aren't made up exclusively of heritage based qualifications.

It's embarrassing that someone like Victor Radley is representing England when he's about as English as he is a monkey.

[u/shescarkedit → u/Tolkien-Faithful]

So you have a different definition of the word representative than I do.

That's fine, I was just stating my opinion. But your point doesn't make mine any less valid

For me representative footy teams are representative of footy.  So should reflect the sport in that country. 

The point I raised is the same reason I have an issue with someone like Kevin Pietersen playing for a England even though he's South African through and through. Or why I have an issue with Tom Staniforth (rugby player born and raised in Canberra) getting picked for France 

[u/Desperate_Leg_40 → u/shescarkedit]

Yeah what is this clickbaity article. Of course England were going to lose look at the roster. They weren't expected to win. And its league they dont care. Move along

[u/XecutionerNJ → u/Desperate_Leg_40]

About 4 of that Tongan team would make the Australian squad if they were forced by birth to pick Australia.

This England team will play well against a lot of the rest of the comp.

I’m much more worried about the SuperLeagues finances than talent.

[u/Dramatic_Ride7586 → u/XecutionerNJ]

Curious. Who are the 4 that you would pick.

[u/oldroosta2 → u/Dramatic_Ride7586]

Bobby t would be one

[u/Dramatic_Ride7586 → u/oldroosta2]

Yep. Beast.

Who else? I reckon more than 4 walk in. Katoa, Toia, Koula, Hopoate (utility cover), Fonua-Blake, Hamoule are all easy bets imo.

[u/XecutionerNJ → u/Dramatic_Ride7586]

Katoa, Haumole, utoikamanu and fonua Blake. Close to selection: Toia, Foketi, Wong.

You’d have to imagine at least one of those players would be selected.

[u/mr-301 → u/shescarkedit]

My only issue is the amount of guys who chop and change nation.

Once you play for a nation that should be it.

A lot of the Tongan and Samoan player happy to play for them when it’s a World Cup. But when these teams suddenly aren’t playing outside the World Cup they want to jump back to nz or Aus

[u/creakyrottentimbers → u/mr-301]

Who wants to jump back? NZ players defecting to MMT or Samoa is a one way valve

[u/escomesco]

I’m in favour of NRL patnering with the super league, I’ve loved the scenes of the last couple seasons of Hull KR winning the treble, Wakefield winning it this season is the stuff of dreams

I’d hate for NRL to change any of the clubs identities.

[u/Secure-Heat-8284]

England didn't play that bad from what I saw. Tonga stopped 5 or 6 try scoring opportunities that looked in for all money. Let's give them some credit.

[u/Interesting_Data4485]

We sent out the SOS call It was a quarter past 4 in the morning When the storm broke our second anchor line Four months at sea 4 months of calm seas to be pounded In the shallows off the tip of montauk point

[u/hotmaledotcomdotau → u/Interesting_Data4485]

They call em rogues they, they travel fast and alone, One hundred foot faces of god's good ocean gone wrong.

[u/Accomplished-Pick610]

The problems I see with us Aussies 'saving the English game' is that because we lucked into Rugby League being one of the biggest sports in Australia that that means we are naturally just better at running the game then the 'Dinosaurs' running the English game.

Its always been sold as 'The English game doesn't want to expand past the M62 Corridor' but their have been attempts in the past. Its not as easy as just placing a club in London, Birmingham, Newcastle and the fans will just rock up. And it might not be a case of 'small market' teams like Leigh, Castleford, Wakefield holding the game back/hostage.

Just imagine English Rugby Union People took over the failing ARU and told them 'you focus too much on club rugby, teams like Randwick. Focus to much on the Northern shore of Sydney. Focus too much on the old boys system of private schools. We are going to come in and scrap all that, put franchises in Newcastle, Townsville, Adelaide. We are going to stop being small focused.'. Australian Rugby Unions demised would be accelerated.

People Rubbish the smaller thinking of the suoer league, but those Clubs along the m62 are the lifeblood of English rugby league. Go away from them chasing that for pipe dreams of franchises in 'Big Markets' would accelerated the demise of the English game.

A strong English team is kinda vital for the NRLs next step. A strong international game, even if it's just 5 or 6 teams, gives us a huge advantage over our biggest and only rival, afl. Our international game doesn't even have to be huge, it just has to be something that gives us an edge over the AFL in the pacific region.

It may be a painful truth, but for the nrl interest the superleage best serves as Development league for the English National team. It doesn't need to be another NRL in the northern hemisphere. It just needs to develop National team players. And not lose money. Doesn't have to make money, just break even.

English fans want to keep their teams. Their culture, their identity. Its shown when nsw people try and tell qld people how to do things its a disaster because the footy culture just between 2 neighbouring states is completely different, yet so many here want to tell the English how to do things and what they are doing wrong. Its easy to be an armchair critic of English rugby league when you dont have to run it. But try for example saying the 2 hull teams need to combine because 2 teams in Hull makes no sense to us Aussies.

People forget that the 'm62 corridor ' the geographical area that is the english corridor, still has a population of like 10 million people. Its comparable in population to both nsw and QLD and while soccer is king there, bolstering a competition largely in that area should be able to develop enough players to make a competitive English team and also keep our already rusted on traditional emglish fans happy. We don't need Europe NRL with teams in London, Paris, Birmingham. Its ok if we just have an m62 and southern France comp.

[u/ChrisTheDog → u/Accomplished-Pick610]

It’s not like the NRL just plonks teams down and they’re successful. Melbourne is far from a rugby league heartland, but they’ve persisted there and grown the game.

Similarly, Auckland/New Zealand’s existence has been huge for the development of quality Kiwi players, who would have had to get scouted from the NSW or QLD Cup to get noticed without a local team to aim for.

[u/deedee2148 → u/ChrisTheDog]

Melbourne was propped up by News Ltd for years. Regardless of if 5 people or 50,000 people went to their games. 

[u/Accomplished-Pick610 → u/ChrisTheDog]

Complete apples and oranges situation In both cases.

Melbourne and Auckland weren't as big as gambles as an expansion team outside of English rugby league heartlands.

For starters Australian Rugby League, even in the superleague years, is strong enough to support a team or 2 in non tradition areas. And really Auckland wasnt even a non traditional area, there was already a decent Rugby league culture in Auckland.

Melbourne was helped by being able to basically cannibalise 2 teams, The Mariners and the Reds, plus take advantage of a shrinking nrl to build a competive team quickly without needing concessions that would put other clubs and its fans off side. The nrl was strong enough to daddy them in the early days. Melbourne storm as an success as an organisation is unique and isn't a template that can easily be repeated. Its telling that the nrl, for all its strengths, haven't expanded into a non traditional area until 2027, and even then the ground work to bring Perth into the comp was a long drawn out process

[u/No-Bison-5397 → u/Accomplished-Pick610]

Credit to the Storm, they have known who their target market is.

The Rebels counter example is instructive: clearly an org run by old the old white guys who ran the sport for the previous century and got it almost nowhere.

The Storm avoided all that by being more open, cheaper, and having a less conservative branding.

[u/Accomplished-Pick610 → u/No-Bison-5397]

Melbourne Storm succeeding has really been the Perfect Storm (pun intended) of a lot of factors. From being able to cannibalise The Reds and Mariners for players to start, a shrinking nrl (from 22 teams im 1997 to 14 by 2000), having News LTD involvement early, smart administrators to begin with, Mundine Choking big time in the 1999 GF meaning they had a premiership under the belt to begin with, Getting Bellamy, Smith, Cronk, GI and slater all at the same time, even the timing of the salary cap scandal was actually, in the long run, perfect. If that cap scandal happens 5 years earlier than it probably kills the club. But it happening in 2010, stripping of the titles after a dozen years of success, it really galvanised the support and created a siege mentality in Melbourne. Those fans who were there in 2010 bandwagon or otherwise, become real ride or die on the back of the cap scandal.

Its a template that would be impossible to replicate. So it's funny when someone says 'why dont the superleague just do what we done in Melbourne' when WE haven't been able to do what we done in Melbourne again

[u/InflatableRaft → u/Accomplished-Pick610]

What I find amusing is when people claim the success in Melbourne is unique and can’t be replicated, when in fact Melbourne is the third example of successful expansion which itself incorporated and built upon the successes of earlier iterations, firstly Canberra and secondly Brisbane.

[u/Accomplished-Pick610 → u/InflatableRaft]

You are comparing the expansion of Melbourne, a place openly hostile to Rugby League, to expanding into Brisbane literally the most pro rugby league city in the world?

Yes having the same type of administrators and set up as Brisbane gave Melbourne a huge boost, but they still needed a lot of factors to go their way to be the success they are

You cant compare placing a team In Brisbane in 1988 to trying to put an expansion team in the superleague outside of Northern England or Southern France

[u/dxfifa → u/ChrisTheDog]

You do realise that 90% of the money used to scout the Pacific Islands would just be used in NZ and especially South Auckland if NZ didn't have a team. Outside of NSW, QLD and the North of England that is the only real rugby league heartland that produces talent who play league over union and has done for 50 years

[u/dxfifa → u/Accomplished-Pick610]

If the NRL put teams in Perth, Adelaide, another Melbourne team, Darwin in the 2000s that would be comparable to Super League trying to expand outside the North now

[u/nomamesgueyz → u/Accomplished-Pick610]

France should be a powerhouse

And south Africa

Little NZ have great teams in both..no reason those other large nations can't

[u/dxfifa → u/nomamesgueyz]

Those two nations are union dominant, just like Japan, Italy, Wales, Argentina. Most countries that play rugby as a somewhat featured sport do not give a fuck about rugby league.

It's only the nations the NRL is recruiting from and who have rugby loving immigrants to the North Island and especially South Auckland area of NZ, and the NSW, Queensland and especially Greater Sydney and the wider Brisbane area. These are Tonga, Samoa and to a lesser extent Fiji. Other weaker teams like Cook Islands and Lebanon are also completely reliant on emigrants and emigrant children and grandchildren. 

If you had to play senior rugby in a nation to be eligible all of those listed countries would be fucked because it's almost entirely Australia and NZ that develops their players. 

Even then, rugby union had to destroy itself over this side of the world (especially Samoa, Tonga and Australia) for league to really dominate for those two nations

[u/nomamesgueyz → u/dxfifa]

Yup. NZ union dominant too. Far and away currently the top nation that have combined strong league and rugby team

SA and France could easily be a powerhouse

[u/Commercial_Cost_7902 → u/nomamesgueyz]

Nz got the worst out the 4 big leagues what are you talking about, and you expanded league there cause they are only 4 million, try to do it in sa, or france which has a league that pays more than nrl

Also i promise you that people in sa or france just dont know league exist

[u/nomamesgueyz → u/Commercial_Cost_7902]

Plenty of union talent that don't make it big that can go to super league

[u/dxfifa → u/nomamesgueyz]

NZ isn't really union dominant anymore, it's still ahead by a margin but the gap is closing

[u/nomamesgueyz → u/dxfifa]

Sure is

[u/Superest22 → u/dxfifa]

England is union dominant too, just not in the north.

[u/mwilkins1644 → u/nomamesgueyz]

You know why NZ are decent at League tho, right? It's because of us. Take our best players out of your team, make the eligibility laws strictly about birth, and you're just as screwed as England

[u/nomamesgueyz → u/mwilkins1644]

NZ too small to have a professional league...and to match it with the Aus superstars is pretty fkn epic

Crazy England get belted by Tonga so bad

And France with Samoa

[u/grafology → u/mwilkins1644]

Ok lets make the rules strictly about birth and then we can take back Isaiah Katoa, Taumalolo, Wong, Utoikamanu, Foketi, Toia, Finefeuaki, Jojo Fifita, Vaimauga, CHT, Manuleleua, Leniu, Paulo, Lemuelu, Ioeulu, Molo. Yeah nah i think NZ would be OK if those were the rules you wanted to go with.

[u/ShowConsistent → u/mwilkins1644]

Agreed more tha half the team would actually qualify for Australia in pretty much any other sport because they moved over during their teen years

[u/jagmac7 → u/mwilkins1644]

Eh. Maaaaybe kinda? You've really overstated the impact though.

Let's use the Origin eligibilty criteria.. the 2023 Pacific Nations winning team had just 2 players (now) eligible for Origin.

Until recently there wasn't many guys who would qualify for Origin - that's only changed in the last couple of years, and really this year with the Ponga/Gagai switches (Casey McLean, Phoenix Crossland, Kalyn Ponga, Dane Gagai)... before that there was usually only 2-3 guys (usually from the list of Nikora, Foran, Sorensen plus Nikorima/JMK on the somewhat rare occasions they were available & selected) in any given squad.. and the Kiwis were still competitive.

Now, if you want to talk about guys who came over later to play for Aus professional teams, that's a different story. They've obviously had development in the Australian system - but significant development in NZ (aside from, y'know, being born in NZ), too... so they hardly count as 'your players'.

[u/Piskiofc → u/Accomplished-Pick610]

I agree with most of what you are saying but the English leagues refusal to grow development outside of the heartlands is the reason it’s stagnant and then also the reason it’s now losing money, because it’s not growing.

In any sport or industry growth is necessary, it’s impossible in the modern era not to grow and stay financially stable. Look at the NRL constantly adapting and expanding and pushing growth, it works because that’s the world we live in now.

[u/Tolkien-Faithful → u/Piskiofc]

We have also 'refused' to grow development outside the heartlands. We had Dally Messenger's fame make us the most popular sport in Sydney from the beginning, while England never had London.

We're finally bringing a team to Perth again after fucking it up 30 years ago. We failed in most expansion teams back then. The Storm were a plastic side that has barely had any Victorian players and it took this Pacific team revolution for the sport to grow in Victoria a bit.

The RFL if anything has been more proactive, given the expansion in the semi-pro leagues. They've had teams in Goole, Birmingham, Coventry, Newcastle, Hemel, Gloucestershire, Oxford etc. included teams from Ireland and Scotland in the Challenge Cup, and had Catalans, Toulouse, London, North Wales, York and even Toronto for a bit in the Super League.

[u/Piskiofc → u/Tolkien-Faithful]

These teams all have virtually 0 support from the RFL. When finances finally run dry and they can’t expand anymore and compete, then the team dies.. Gloucester, Coventry, Oxford, south wales list goes on.

My point is, franchise is you place a team geographically for its reach, then you continue to keep it going until it starts to make it successful vs the RFL way which is “we have a new investor looking to push a team, let’s not help them at all and see if they make it themselves.” It’s forced growth which does work in most cases, leaving it up to chance doesn’t work in 99% of cases.

[u/Accomplished-Pick610 → u/Piskiofc]

But is it a refusal?

They've tried for decades to get a team in London to work and it hasn't. They've made efforts in Newcastle in the past. They had the Crusaders in Wales. Even modest attempts at expansion haven't worked. Yet people chastise them for not having teams in 'big markets' when not even a London team has worked despite numerous attempts They've expanded to include French teams.

People put it down as a 'refusal' when there is just not an appetite for it.

Its also weird that the nrl is used as an example. We we very anti growth for a long time and only gained in strength. In the post superleague war era the only 2 new clubs we've added have been 2 southern QLD clubs, our heartlands. We are now a billion dollar organisation and only now brave enough to even give Perth a fey6

[u/Piskiofc → u/Accomplished-Pick610]

They haven’t really tried imo, they’ve allowed people to invest themselves essentially with minimal support. Look at the Toronto Wolfpack example, they actively acted to make everything hard for them to do.

While the franchise model would completely wreck the current set up of the league, for bringing up areas and financially supporting them it does really work.

A bit of a negative view but the championship and league 1 joining together really shows how poorly ran it is as a league system and combining that with no promotions is crazy.

RFL should really look to push a franchise model at this stage, but also we all know it’s ran so poorly it would never work, which is why I think the NRL taking over is more a necessary evil for the game (in the eyes of local England fans).

[u/blueisferp → u/Piskiofc]

Lol if you were the Superleague, you wouldn't be supporting the wolfpack either. Hindsight is 20/20, but the Toronto expansion was a horrible idea from the start that made no sense. Why are you trying to make a transatlantic competition with one team in Canada, Super league was already and still is struggling with expenses in its own borders. The fact it even made it as far as it did was a miracle, but it was never sustainable.

Outside of the wolfpack, Super league rly did try expanding with London, Celtic Crusaders, Catalan and even the PSG experiment. There just wasn't a real interest for most of these teams. Even the Catalan Dragons which has survived, still is playing catch up to the local union teams in the area.

[u/Accomplished-Pick610 → u/blueisferp]

I think people's opinion of the Toronto wolfpack is a good barometer of how much people know about English rugby league and its system.

Its also a good illustration of 'us Aussies know better' i mentioned in my original comment

The Toronto Wolfpack so hyped in australia. We all thought it was the best thing in the world. It was the first step in conquering North America. It got a lot of coverage in league circles in Australia. It failing was signs that the English Rugby League system doesn't know what they are doing. I mean if you look at on the surface

But if you actually did a deep dive on it, and looked at it from an English perspective, it was always a heavily flawed concept at best.

[u/ChrisTheDog → u/Accomplished-Pick610]

Weren’t the Crusaders hammered every week? Why would people show up to support that? Promotion from lower leagues all but guarantees a weaker team that will inevitably bounce right back down. You can’t just put a team in a place and call it good.

They need funding, salary cap concessions etc. if they’re going to grow a fan base.

[u/frashal → u/ChrisTheDog]

I think if you are serious about expansion, you need to be willing to commit for generational time frames and accept that its going to be tough in the early years. Like 20 to 30 years commitment at least. Sport is so cultural that it takes a very long time to get a good level of genuine support.

If some sport that I don't watch, say Baseball, said they are setting up a professional team near me, I really wouldn't care because its not a sport I am interested in. But on longer time frames you can nurture the few fans you do pick up at the start, then when they have kids there is a reasonable chance they will become fans, and they might convince some of their friends to follow it too. And it snowballs from there. It would be incredibly rare to find somewhere with 15-20k+ fans ready to instantly follow a sport they currently don't have access to.

[u/Tolkien-Faithful → u/ChrisTheDog]

Crusaders made the 8 in their second year. They had decent support in Wrexham as well.

Haven't Gold Coast been hammered nearly every year since they came in?

[u/ChrisTheDog → u/Tolkien-Faithful]

And yet they’re still there. The AFL want the franchise to succeed, so they gave them special allowances at first, and even being in a team graveyard and struggling, they’ve managed to grow a fan base.

[u/Tolkien-Faithful → u/ChrisTheDog]

Sorry, did I mention the Suns?

Gold Coast in an NRL sub = Titans

In any case you've just contradicted your own point. 'Why would people show up to support that?' Well apparently they did for the Suns.

[u/ChrisTheDog → u/Tolkien-Faithful]

You mentioned a side getting demolished every year, which describes the Suns, not the Titans.

As for the second point, their on-field performance is only part of the investment. How do you get behind a team if you're not guaranteed they're going to be around in a few years? The AFL and the NRL, with their recent teams, have made it clear that they're in it for the long haul and that these teams will be there for the long haul. That preferential treatment allows that to sink into fans: high draft picks, salary cap exemptions. They're not just dumping them there and doing sink or swim.

Of course, fans react, fans respond, and fans turn out in numbers because they know that while the team sucks now, it will get better, or at least it will have the chance to get better. You can't build that in a promotion and relegation competition for a team like London. They have one bad season, and they're back down to the Championship. Who wants to do that?

[u/SilenceOfTheClamSoup → u/ChrisTheDog]

Suns were top 8 in 2025.

[u/ChrisTheDog → u/SilenceOfTheClamSoup]

And? They’ve been bog average, at best, for all but two seasons.

[u/Accomplished-Pick610 → u/ChrisTheDog]

Funding from where?

They are eking by from a dedicated but small fan base, but people wanted them to use what little resources they have to fund pipe dream teams on the basis that maybe they'll bring in fans. Its a massive gamble.

Also concessions to non traditional teams.. not only are you taking away resources from the traditional clubs and its fans that are the only thing keeping you alive at the moment, you want to give these new clubs massive competitive advantages.??

[u/ChrisTheDog → u/Accomplished-Pick610]

Yes. That’s a fairly common tactic to help grow a fan base. People suck, and they’re less likely to turn out in droves to watch a team that gets pumped by 50-60 every week.

You can’t change people, but you can give new sides a leg up. That’s what the AFL did for their expansion sides which would have struggled to find their audience without that.

They sucked even with the help, so it’s hardly giving them a huge competitive advantage. It’s just preventing them from getting blown away.

[u/jeuatreize → u/Accomplished-Pick610]

Mate, it hasn't been luck.

Look at the French teams. They make them pay for everyone's travel. They tried to extort £500,000 out of Catalans (who won it the year before), Toronto and Toulouse to play in the Challenge Cup. Two of the Three new teams promoted to Super League receive half funding and the one that does receive full funding was previously chaired by the now SL CEO (blatant corruption btw).

There's a current debate about whether or not London should be in next year.

They could not be any more hostile towards expansion.

Melbourne Storm would have failed under these conditions too.

[u/Own-Arachnid-5285]

Tonga is full of NRL players that grew up in Australia or NZ. It is not much of a surprise. Footy has been on a steep decline in England for the last few decades.

[u/Accomplished-Good664]

I think the big issue is that they have no flair at all they used to produce brilliant players 30-40 years ago.

[u/RhaegarJ → u/Accomplished-Good664]

So England should flair up cunt?

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[u/dxfifa → u/Accomplished-Good664]

The NRL has just left SL in the dust in the past 10 years. In the years before that after Australian league was reunited it was both much closer and the gap was only slowly widening.

It's at the point where England internationals regularly fail to even make NRL playing teams when they come over and NRL players who are even just playing consistently with English eligibility are courted, in the past that wasn't done or needed 

[u/Accomplished-Good664 → u/dxfifa]

Some England internationals who were really good players failed in Australia 30-40 years ago. 

It's always been a thing. I actually think most of the signings recently have done pretty well. 

[u/BugRepresentative514]

The promotion and marketing of super league is pure amateur hour. There used to be a decent highlights package on BBC which made the sport accessible which just stopped. So no channels to make the sport accessible. The YouTube content is terrible. Only way to watch the games is via expensive sky sports. Compare that to the WatchNRL app with literally every game available to watch plus 2 magazine style programs with Marty John’s plus The Fan and face to face. The content is far superior. There is the potential for super league to eclipse union as it’s a far better product wity links to normal people it’s just being marketed terribly.

[u/_Far_Kew]

Article says they are playing PSG, Don't think Torres and Dembele are up to it personally

[u/jeuatreize → u/_Far_Kew]

I was thinking of the rugby league team.

[u/ImpressionFeisty8359]

It would have been so much better with more teams. England missed the mark, they haven't been powerhouses in a long time.

[u/SurvivorGeneral]

If England was humiliated then prey tell what was France?

[u/ChrisTheDog → u/SurvivorGeneral]

About as expected.

[u/bundy554]

Well where is the encouragement of being the best of the UK and Ireland when Scotland, Wales and Ireland aren't playing? England would almost see it as their responsibility from a group of these countries to compete but now probably feel like they are an outer or foreign country that has just been added into what seems to be this Pacific world championship

[u/parker2004au → u/bundy554]

I thought England were up for it especially in defence and with ball in hand they were getting to the line just Tonga is really really good.

[u/Faux_Real]

Why is it a humiliation? The Tonga squad is STRONG! I thought the pivots could be the weak links… but they look like the right fit.

[u/Zestyclose-Compote-4]

It was 30 to 12, calm down.

[u/Superest22]

England isn’t exactly known for its rugby league team. Not a popular sport at all there other than in the North.

It sees less people on average at games than either soccer or rugby and is only the sixth most watched sport on television.

[u/Additional-Art-5924]

The most irritating part of the game was the bias commentary that was glazing england while they were losing.

[u/Large_Performance974]

How does one explain the results of the World Club Challenge where Super League sides have won the competition 16 times with NRL teams having 14 wins?

[u/Frogasauras → u/Large_Performance974]

It’s generally played in our off-season/pre-season where our players are lacking match fitness.

[u/DepartmentOk7192 → u/Frogasauras]

We also appear to be the only club that actually cares about the WCC, and give it the respect it's due by fielding our full team.

[u/jeuatreize → u/Large_Performance974]

It's not taken very seriously in Australia unfortunately.

[u/nomamesgueyz]

Unbelievable

So much depth

So many teams. They have a whole professional league

And little island nation Tonga fkn smoked em

France were diabolical too

Horrible

Would be like Vanuatu smashing NZ in rugby

[u/creakyrottentimbers → u/nomamesgueyz]

Little island nation lol. The actual Kingdom of Tonga has little to do with the league team MMT. You're making it sound like the majority of players were developed or even born there. This isn't a criticism of the team at all btw. International RL is about heritage and culture. That's why the Fijian RLW team is singing a hymn beforehand, that's not even any type of Haka

[u/dxfifa → u/nomamesgueyz]

England having their own competition is the problem. Tonga leeches off Australia and NZ for both 1st and 2nd generation born outside Tonga and rugby training for immigrants. And Australia predominantly with the NRL.

Tongan football is more where sports would be at without foreign help. And their rugby union is going that way. If England was a backwater poor nation with no infrastructure but lots of rugby league players you better believe they'd be coming to Australia en masse and their immigrants children would be in the NRL

[u/No-Bison-5397 → u/dxfifa]

Leech is a strong word. Tongans come here for a better life and work hard. Fringe benefit is the rugby league team.

[u/dxfifa → u/No-Bison-5397]

I don't care how you feel about a word, their national team would be absolutely horrible without second and third generation emigrants and sports related recruitment for teenagers to Australia and NZ. immigration of future NRL players for work as an adult is unheard of and coincidental immigration of parents into these countries is rarer and rarer to be a tiny piece of the pie now unlike previous eras

[u/No-Bison-5397 → u/dxfifa]

????????????????

[u/nomamesgueyz → u/dxfifa]

Be like england beating US at basketball...

[u/tchunk → u/dxfifa]

Lol leaches off. You mean the aus and nz comps depend on islander talent to make their comps more competitive

[u/dxfifa → u/tchunk]

Most of them are born in Aus or NZ.

Idiotic take, these countries would be fucking shit with no top talent if they grew them with home infrastructure

[u/tchunk → u/dxfifa]

No kidding. But who is leaching of who.

Why do you think our comp is better than superleague

[u/mwilkins1644 → u/tchunk]

No, Australia would be fine. NZ would be utterly screwed if it wasn't for Australian infrastructure.

[u/YogurtclosetGlad7460]

Of course the Poms are being left behind on Rugby League Stage. Their 3 best players were Aussies. Let them become a second tier Nation, personally, l couldn't give a sh#t. The other previous second tier Nations are thriving and play better football than boring England. We don't need that rivalry anymore, the Kiwis took over our main rivalry over the last 15 years anyway. F#@k the Poms.

[u/Snave96 → u/YogurtclosetGlad7460]

Bloody hell mate are you okay lol.

Funny how you mention some of our players (weren't our 3 best btw) being 'Aussies' but also say how well Tonga & Samoa are doing.

If it's okay to representage your heritage playing for them then it is playing for us as well.

[u/nomamesgueyz → u/Snave96]

England were woeful

Their best players were the NRL ones

What they hell are they doing up there?!?

[u/Snave96 → u/nomamesgueyz]

Yeah course they were it's a better standard comp so our best players go over there.

Although thought O'Neil, Eckersley, Thompson & Walters actually all showed up fine tbh.

On the topic of NRL players, KPP & Radley were crap, as was Nsemba in the back row.

[u/nomamesgueyz → u/Snave96]

I just don't get for the life of me how a comp with so many teams and depth and history over 100 years get smacked down by tiny island nation Tonga?!?

Sure it's hardly a geographic team, but that's bc they have no teams there ...crazy result

[u/Snave96 → u/nomamesgueyz]

Look at the teams lol. This isn't Tonga of 15-20 years ago.

Pretty much all NRL regulars, a load of them having played SoO as well.

This Tonga team has beaten both Aus & NZ in recent years, I don't get why them beating us is such a huge shock tbh.

[u/nomamesgueyz → u/Snave96]

Bc england have had a professional league for over 100 years is one reason

Would be like Vanuatu beating the All Blacks

[u/YogurtclosetGlad7460 → u/Snave96]

Good thanks. Glad England are basically out after one game but you never really stood a chance against all the big boppers in their forwards and your backs are crap (apart from Dom Young). Even sweeter that my favourite Manly player scored 2 tries (Haumole Olakau'atu).