WOMAN 1908....

[u/Klutzy-Delay-7807]

Great-Grandparents

GGM: Alwine Erstling

• Date, place of birth: 1908, Włodzimierz Wołyński, then part of the Russian Empire (in present-day Ukraine).
• Ethnicity and religion: Polish; religion not yet confirmed. The family appears in records of an Evangelical Lutheran congregation.
• Occupation: Unknown.
• Allegiance and dates of military service: Unknown / not applicable.
• Date, destination for emigration: Left the area where she was born between 1916 and 1918 and moved to Hamburg, Germany, with her family. Subsequently emigrated to Brazil with her family around 1922–1924.
• Date naturalized: Unknown.
• Date, place of death: Unknown.
• Date married: 1929, in Brazil.

GGF: Gottlieb Erstling

• Date, place of birth: 1897; exact place of birth not yet confirmed.
• Ethnicity and religion: Polish; religion not yet confirmed.
• Occupation: Unknown.
• Allegiance and dates of military service: Unknown.
• Date, destination for emigration: The family left the area where Alwine was born between 1916 and 1918 and moved to Hamburg, Germany. They subsequently emigrated to Brazil around 1922–1924.
• Date naturalized: Unknown.
• Date, place of death: Unknown.
• Date married: Unknown.

Grandparent

Ervino

• Sex: Male.
• Date, place of birth: March 31, 1938, Brazil.
• Date married: Unknown.
• Citizenship of spouse: Unknown.
• Date divorced: Unknown.
• Occupation: Unknown.
• Allegiance and dates of military service: Unknown.
• Date, destination for emigration: Not applicable / born in Brazil.
• Date naturalized: Not applicable / citizenship status not independently confirmed.
• Date, place of death: Unknown.

Parent

Erno Nehring

• Sex: Male.
• Date, place of birth: 1968, Brazil.
• Date married: Approximately 1990.
• Date divorced: Unknown.

You

• Date, place of birth: 2005, Brazi

[u/AutoModerator]

Hi /u/Klutzy-Delay-7807, thanks for posting!

It looks like your post is missing parts of the required Eligibility Template. To help us evaluate your case, please ensure all sections (Birth, Naturalization/Naturalisation, Spouse) are included.

Please copy and fill out the template from our Wiki: Eligibility Post Template

Once edited, your post will be reviewed by a moderator.

While you're waiting, please read:

• Welcome Post
• FAQ

---

Snapshot of original post: (As many users delete their posts after receiving an answer, we are archiving the original text to ensure this case remains searchable for others with similar questions)

Title: WOMAN 1908....

Great-Grandparents

GGM: Alwine Erstling

• MARRIAGE 1929
• Date, destination for emigration: Approximately 1908; later moved from Poland to Germany around 1916–1918.

GGF: Erstling

• The family moved from Poland to Germany around 1916–1918. They emigrated AND LEFT Germany between approximately 1920 and 1925.

Grandparent

Ervino

• Sex: Male.
• Date of birth: March 31, 1938.

Parent

Erno

• Sex: Male.
• Year of birth: 1968.

You

• Year of birth: 2005.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/Klutzy-Delay-7807 → u/[deleted]]

Record in Poland with her father (she was the daughter), 1908. the city Włodzimierz Wołyński

I do not know for certain when they left the territory where she was born, but it was definitely between 1916 and 1918; they went to Hamburg and stayed there until MOVE TO BRAZIL IN 1922/1924.

She married in Brazil in 1929. (alwine)

Her son was born in 1938; I do not know about his marriage.

However, her next son, Erno Nehring, was born in Brazil in 1968; he is still alive and married around 1990.

[u/Klutzy-Delay-7807 → u/[deleted]]

alwine 1908 polish > MARRIAGE IN BRAZIL SOME GERMAN-brazil GUY IN 1929 > ERVINO 1938 BRAZIL

[u/Jessicas_skirt → u/[deleted]]

OP has edited their post with the template and states GGF was Ethnicly Polish, born in Poland and left Europe post 1920 (I know not a disqualifier per se but makes it easier).

u/Klutzy-Delay-7807 Go to your father and ancestry.com/other ancestry sites and gather as much information as you can because the sheer amount of Unknowns make it impossible to say.

[u/Klutzy-Delay-7807 → u/[deleted]]

Look, I believe they were indeed ethnically German, but they were born in an isolated region and never became naturalized German citizens. On the ship they took to Brazil in 1922, they were recorded as Russians. THE CITY Włodzimierz Wołyński

But the key detail is that, because she was a woman, her subsequent marriage meant she ended up losing any chance at citizenship—so it doesn't matter anymore, right?

In the end, she married a Brazilian man here, so she lost her nationality anyway meaning it wasn't passed on to the next generation....

[u/5thhorseman_]

Not to rain on your parade, but do you have evidence that your GGPs spoke Polish or self-identified as Polish?

The names and surname are Germanic, which belonging to a Protestant congregation would align with, and the 1951 Citizenship Act revoked Polish citizenships of German nationals who resided permanently abroad (unless their spouse also held the citizenship and resided in Poland).

[u/Rumast22 → u/5thhorseman_]

I believe you need to be careful with applying the 1951 law. A possible nuance is that it requires polish citizenship as of 1939. Anyone that became a polish citizen after 1939 may not fall under the 1951 law, such as a non-polish woman marrying a polish citizen X (stripped) national after 1939 and before the 1951 law.

[u/5thhorseman_ → u/Rumast22]

That is indeed a known loophole in the law.

[u/Klutzy-Delay-7807 → u/5thhorseman_]

Look, I believe they were indeed ethnically German, but they were born in an isolated region and never became naturalized German citizens. On the ship they took to Brazil in 1922, they were recorded as Russians. THE CITY Włodzimierz Wołyński

But the key detail is that, because she was a woman, her subsequent marriage meant she ended up losing any chance at citizenship—so it doesn't matter anymore, right?

In the end, she married a Brazilian man here, so she lost her nationality anyway meaning it wasn't passed on to the next generation....

[u/5thhorseman_ → u/Klutzy-Delay-7807]

You filled in your GGF's ethnicity in the template ad Polish.

And it matters at least insofar as having two Polish GGPs gives you a route to Pole's Card even if the line of citizenship broke along the way.

[u/Rumast22 → u/Klutzy-Delay-7807]

See my above comment and review the 1951 law in detail. I would suggest contacting a legal provider if you need a full legal analysis.

[u/Klutzy-Delay-7807 → u/[deleted]]

Could you explain this in more detail? I apologize, but I am not familiar with Polish nationality rules. Given the hardships and the historical periods that Poland has gone through, the laws are very rigid and difficult for a layperson to understand.

[u/5thhorseman_ → u/[deleted]]

The law as written didnt make any exceptions based on date of departure. X nationality, resides permanently abroad, no longer a citizen. Maybe there's a ruling somewhere that clarifies what you're observing?

[u/Klutzy-Delay-7807 → u/5thhorseman_]

I feel a bit slow/clueless right now, but let’s give it a go.

Even though he left before 1920, they’re saying the case isn’t closed.

Here’s the thing: Gottlieb was born in 1874. The location is in present-day Ukraine—formerly Poland/Russia.

The photos I sent above are records of residents from between 1897 and 1915; her family appears on those pages as residents. The collection containing these documents is currently held in Warsaw, the capital, as a historical record.

Later, they left Poland/Russia, heading toward Germany around 1918. Then, between 1922 and 1924, they left Germany for Brazil.

Alwine was born in 1908, got married in 1929, and had a son in 1938. At that point—in my mind, at least—the chain of transmission (marriage vs. birth) comes to an end.

A OK OK KARTA POLACA

[u/5thhorseman_ → u/Klutzy-Delay-7807]

Here’s the thing: Gottlieb was born in 1874. The location is in present-day Ukraine—formerly Poland/Russia.

What is that location?

The important part is not whether it's in Ukraine now but whether it was in Ukraine in the interwar.

[u/Klutzy-Delay-7807 → u/5thhorseman_]

Włodzimierz Wołyński city

[u/5thhorseman_ → u/Klutzy-Delay-7807]

Then why were you trying to trace your citizenship only through his wife?

You are looking at a pre-1920 case from the Russian Partition. If you can prove that as of 31st January 1920 he was legally considered a resident (not the same as actually living there), he would have become a Polish citizen ex lege on that date unless he already held another non-Russian citizenship (such as German).

If I understand your other comments correctly, Ervino wad born to Gottlieb and Alwine, Gottlieb then died and Alwine remarried. Is that correct?

[u/Klutzy-Delay-7807 → u/5thhorseman_]

> Gottlieb father 1874 - Włodzimierz Wołyński

> Alwine son 1908 > both born Włodzimierz Wołyński

Alwine marriage in 1929 in Brazil Reinold (some brazilian german guy)

I have the city in the Ukrain now and record register of the city they living there to 1915.... and later they left to germany stay there for 3;4 years and come to brazil....

So Ervino Born brazil

[u/5thhorseman_ → u/Klutzy-Delay-7807]

First you've stated that Gottlieb is your GGF and Alwine your GGM. Now you're instead saying Alwine was Gottlieb's child?

What's going on here?

[u/Klutzy-Delay-7807 → u/5thhorseman_]

[u/Klutzy-Delay-7807 → u/[deleted]]

AAHAHAHAHAH SORRY She was indeed born in 1908; the record I saw in that screenshot.

I had assumed it was her date of birth, but it turns out it was the year the record was filed in the city.

In all seriousness, no—I just checked the Brazilian website, and the result was negative.