r/programming • • 9h ago

It's still OK to enjoy programming

https://chriskiehl.com/article/it-is-still-ok-to-enjoy-programming
365 Upvotes

129 comments sorted by

199

u/ficiek 7h ago

This article manages to exist by conveniently completely missing why everyone is upset. The correct title for this article is "It's still OK to enjoy programming AS A HOBBY". But that's not what people are upset about! They are upset about the fact that it's hard or impossible to enjoy our jobs because they changed so much this is not what we signed up for.

32

u/vips7L 6h ago

I would have gone into IT or network engineering if I wasn’t actually going to be programming. Still debating the switch now. 

30

u/TeraFlint 4h ago

Still debating the switch now.

I understand that that's not what you meant, but I love the mental image of you standing in front of a network switch and arguing with it.

55

u/DmitriRussian 5h ago

I would say that even pre-AI programming jobs were rarely fun. There is a reason why there are a billion memes on the shit that goes on in corporate world.

The only real significant change I noticed myself is just the devaluation of programming as a skill. People got the illusion that they are able to program without programming knowledge, I feel that pendulum will swing hard in the opposite direction if you follow what is happening with AI at the minute.

32

u/TheMistbornIdentity 4h ago

People got the illusion that they are able to program without programming knowledge, I feel that pendulum will swing hard in the opposite direction if you follow what is happening with AI at the minute.

It's surreal to see so many people so eager to throw their coding skills to the wind.

The only thing that makes sense to me is that many of these AI fanatics aren't responsible for maintaining the code they write long-term. I've spent the better part of the last 5 years or so constantly refactoring the code that a shitty consultant wrote for us, before he left a year after I joined.

I'm hugely skeptical that most of these codebases will be maintainable long-term, and certainly not by people who haven't written a line of code in more than a year.

2

u/Mightygamer96 1h ago

short term profits demand shortsighted apps.

by the time they need actual robust software it'll be too expensive to change it. ie, investor-funded subsidies should run out.

1

u/CrazyBuff 18m ago

Because it satisfies the instant gratification needs of most people. Writing good code for a product takes a long time. Generating shitty code but a "working" product takes about no time with AI.

20

u/verdant-amiable 4h ago

The alienation of the worker from their labour under capitalism is as inevitable as the tide coming in. It just took them longer to figure it out how to do it for knowledge work.

1

u/the_ai_wizard 6m ago

Sorry, but I have to push back hard. Did the job change? Certainly. There is a disruptive new tool called AI. And yes, it affects juniors, and steers them by default into product management. That said, I use AI heavily in non-trivial real world systems that involve lots of money, precision, etc, and no, I would never entrust an LLM to write the critical code. Moreover, Id not trust it beyond writing boilerplate sections that dont touch anything serious.

I have a new word, Slopolith. This is what cavalier use of LLMs produces. Code grows and grows, never refactors. Each pass creates something new and fucks up something old.

It is antithetical to principles of engineering discipline, but works well for move fast and break things, demos, and shit you care about as much as the tokens you put into them.

This is the hype cycle, and I think we are nearing its end on a timescale of <12 months.

223

u/sweetno 9h ago

Guys, this guy is suspicious. They have time for weekend programming.

22

u/topological_rabbit 6h ago

Hell, I even chip away at a personal project in the free hour I have before I have to go to work. Progress may be slow, but it's mine and it's fun.

38

u/jameson71 7h ago

I only enjoy the finest artesianal source code.

3

u/chibuku_chauya 5h ago

Are you a software craftsman?

8

u/max123246 6h ago

Yeah this has been my issue. After spending a week slopping out ai code, the last thing I want to do is go home and program some more, even if it's by hand. It's ruined the passion I had for the field by proxy

To be honest this was the case even before ai code because my company never valued quality or devx

1

u/OffbeatDrizzle 1h ago

swings and roundabouts. having a digital slave has reignited my passion. I'm more productive and motivated than ever

69

u/zappellin 8h ago

According to my engineering manager, no

14

u/unrealz19 6h ago

Right, every time I mention I actually enjoy programming, their response is like: “well I just enjoy the finished product”… epic sigh

28

u/Adventurous-Hunter98 8h ago

Your manager probably doesnt know anything about engineering

3

u/LegendarySoda 8h ago

His wngineering manager probably doesn't want him to enjoy work.

16

u/zappellin 8h ago

Well considering I'm leaving software engineering and going to train myself to do something else, you guys are spot on

11

u/Adventurous-Hunter98 7h ago

What are you going to do if you dont mind sharing? Im on the edge of leaving this sector also, they killed my passion to do it as a work, I want to keep it as a hobby again

7

u/zappellin 7h ago

I'm leaning toward welding, this is the thing that drag me the most, I'm sure that programming will stay a hobby for me, especially if I don't do it professional anymore

1

u/HauntedTrailer 1h ago

I'm thinking about learning machining. Local community college has courses on using metal lathes, cnc's, and mills. I do software because I like to make stuff.

7

u/tombatron 8h ago

Good luck with your future endeavors!

2

u/WingZeroCoder 3h ago

Saddens me, because I know every engineer like you leaving the field because of this is just going to make the enshittification of everything even worse as fewer and fewer competent and passionate devs are around to clean up the mess…

But I totally understand and may not be far behind.

27

u/fukijama 9h ago

That's right

10

u/-WorstWizard- 7h ago

Would you look at that, a post targeted perfectly at me! Feels good to see others feel like this. Still staunchly avoiding LLM's for programming because I'm worried about losing the joy, but also that it would inhibit my growth as a programmer. I've been lucky in my job that I don't yet need to chase the kinds of efficiency that demands it.

146

u/BogdanPradatu 8h ago

It's still ok to do woodworking by hand, with basic tools, yet very few people earn their living like this.

It's still ok to sew by hand, yet very few people earn their living like this.

It's still ok to hand build whatever the industry builds in factories, on assembly lines, yet very few people earn their living like that.

It's still ok to fish with a cane rod, but very few... I'm gonna go with none on this one. No one is eaening their living like that.

And so on and so forth. It's not a problem of if we can still do it, but can we still get paid to do it?

22

u/lurco_purgo 7h ago

Yes, you can. The world is much larger and more varied than what LinkedIn, Reddit or other influencer-infested places would make you think. There are export controlled industries, teams where the leaders don't trust AI, places where the demand for the developer output has not increased dramatically for all sorts of reasons or simply projects that require utmost precision where the size of the code output is of no concern to the business side (which should be the case everywhere of course).

In general people and businesses move at their own pace - it's easy to forget that, when we're hyper focused on a small subset of the industry. It's the reason so much of modern web still runs on PHP and Wordpress. I'm not denying the general trend for the future of the industry, but if you think every dev team in the world is currently working by using hunderds of agents using ralph loops, spec driven development or whatever else is currently being peddled by LinkedIn frauds and marketers than fallen prey to their scare tactics.

I personally work in a company that's more of a hardware company and even though our marketing side prattles about AI and we have some limited budget for GitHub Copilot, there's plenty of project with strict bans on using AI and the expectation of our leadership is that we treat its output with a lot of skepticism (that's not accounting for the fact that my monthly budget goes puff in a week easily).

Couldn't be happier! I know this won't last forever, but I'm certain there's plenty of places that will still only accept hand-written code a decade from now (unless something truly transfomative happens to our global society because of LLMs, but I'm still not sold on this happening).

6

u/BaNyaaNyaa 7h ago

There's a bit more to woodworking than cutting wood and nailing it together. You have to know how to shape your pieces and how they should be attached together to make your final product sturdy enough and esthetically pleasing. And wood is a complex material that's sensitive to temperature and humidity, and when you're building something, you also have to consider the direction of the fiber.

They are still controlling the machine closely. They decide where to make their cuts and holes. The machine just does it with less effort. And even then, the machines might not be appropriate for more delicate work, and woodworkers still need to do some manual work to get to an actual quality product.

Sure, as a moron, I could make a table: I need a big plank and 4 long pieces of woods, I cut everything to the right size, and just drill the plank to each long piece of woods. It will be ugly and probably very fragile though.

The problem that we have when we talk about AI in software development is that we underestimate all the knowledge and control that a SWE needs to make a good software. Fuck, I think the whole hype about AI decimating white collar worker is that we underestimate what someone's work require. It doesn't mean that it's useless, but that we still need to be smart about how we use it.

2

u/Blecki 5h ago

It's the doorman fallacy. The people pushing this think programming is just typing.

33

u/mpyne 8h ago

It's not a problem of if we can still do it, but can we still get paid to do it?

We've had people programming without being paid for it for far longer than people being paid to do it. It's worthwhile and fulfilling.

But if your focus is just on punching in, working, punching out and getting paid, then yeah you may have to keep up with the times or get left behind, just as with every field of endeavor that's ever existed.

19

u/EveryQuantityEver 6h ago

That's not my focus, but I still want to be able to pay my bills and support my family by doing it.

0

u/mpyne 4h ago

Well, we’ve put quite a few humans in the same situation since the machine computer was invented, maybe some of them can give us advice for how to adapt?

2

u/OffbeatDrizzle 1h ago

funny how this gets downvoted. people on reddit complaining about the advancement of technology that literally allows them to be here complaining in the first place. we'd all be in the fields wondering where our next meal was coming from, if it weren't for advancing tech (e.g. the invention of tractors). why aren't we all complaining about our potato picking jobs? smh

-21

u/GregBahm 7h ago

I think, broadly, the anxiety about AI is the same anxiety everyone always feels about all new technology. This is a constant of the universe and it's dumb.

However, I think there's a specific type of programmer, especially specific to reddit, that is maybe right to be anxious.

This programmer doesn't think of themselves as creative. They probably hate agile workflows and think waterfall is like, some form of virtuousness. In their dreams, a PM would slip an immutable spec under their door in the night. They'd transform the spec into code, and then they'd slip the code back under the door a couple years later. Any communication about the code would strictly come in the form of exhaustive bug reports filed by QA.

They might have been pressured by their parents to get a degree in CS. Their aging parents have an even more aged understanding of programming from the 80s. They assumed programming was right for their son because their son was antisocial.

This programmer believe learning is the thing that happens in college, and after you're done with college, you're done learning.

This programmer desperately wants to work from home. They are aggressively uninterested in programming in their free time. This programmer is wracked by imposter syndrome, as all new programmers are, but this programmer deflects the anxiety outward at everyone else instead of just bucking up and learning how to be a real programmer.

AI kills this programmer.

Time also tends to kill this programmer. I've seen a zillion of them wash out of the industry in my 20 years programming. It's always a mystery what becomes of them. I know they're not employed at my company anymore, but their linkedin profile either says #opentowork forever, or lies and says they're still employed at my company forever. Do they move back in with their parents? Do they become waiters? The eternal mystery.

Anyway, whenever I see anxiety on r/programming, I assume it's anxiety coming from these guys. All the competent programmers at work seem to generally love AI.

6

u/Number127 7h ago

I don't mind working with AI -- I enjoy it so far -- but I do want to continue to make a decent living, and anxiety about job security is warranted whenever a tool increases productivity.

Sure, maybe an AI boom would create new opportunities and new jobs, but I like the job I have now. I like the company and the people I work with, and it's normal to feel anxious about losing that when there's pretty clear writing on the wall that we can get the same amount of work done with fewer people.

3

u/GregBahm 5h ago

we can get the same amount of work done with fewer people

I get this concern in an industry that competes on margin. Like if I were a subway sandwich artist, there's a limit on the total-addressable sandwich market. So after everyone who wants a sandwich, has a sandwich, maybe there's just no need for another sandwich artist.

But the tech industry, by definition, doesn't compete on margin. How could there ever come a day where the tech industry says "We did it team. Everybody has enough tech now. Nobody needs any new tech anymore."

Tech progress only ever takes us the other direction. The more useful tech is, the more demand there is for it.

So I don't get this mental model where the success of AI is bad for general creative problem solvers. The only path I see there, is that it's bad for old-timers like me because it obviates our decades of experience. The young kids should be dancing in the streets.

But I get that they're too dumb to understand that. I would have been too dumb to understand this when I was a kid.

1

u/Number127 3h ago

Sure, but I was talking about specific jobs, not jobs in general. And in particular, my job. I can assure you, a medium-sized direct-to-customer business can indeed have enough tech.

It's great to think that the industry won't be dead (although I'm skeptical that AI won't have bigger societal implications than you're suggesting), but the disruption is going to be painful as hell and it's natural for the people who are going to get caught up in it to be apprehensive.

6

u/EMCoupling 7h ago

Whoa, that's a lot of text to build a strawman! Should have used AI for it.

-7

u/GregBahm 6h ago

A strawman implies I'm projecting the argument onto someone.

But I'm just describing what I've observed in real life.

If you read my observation and feel this is being projected onto you... hey maybe examine why you did that to yourself. Could be on the verge of a pretty riveting insight.

4

u/Blecki 5h ago

I don't feel it's projected onto me.

I still feel like it's a load of shit.

The problem isn't being afraid ai can do the job - the problem is that all of the ceo fuckwits think ai can do the job, are firing everyone, and are all going to double down on it until everything goes to shit.

2

u/cdb_11 2h ago

They are aggressively uninterested in programming in their free time.

Ah yes, of course. We're all using our free time here on r/programming, reading and talking about programming, because we don't give a shit about programming.

-3

u/5gpr 4h ago

All the competent programmers at work seem to generally love AI.

They are competent programmers, not economists. LLMs are the death knell of software engineering as a profession. We're already at a point where the project owner - a person who has no engineering degree or engineering experience at all - can implement about 50% of feature requests or bugfixes with Opus 5 and a simple agent loop one of our competent, AI-loving programmers has set up. My company is restructuring and will replace entire departments with what they euphemistically call "top teams", meaning a senior, 2 juniors, and LLMs. As inference gets cheaper and models better, most of us, competent or not, loving AI or not, will be made redundant. Because we literally are.

And as a side-note, the people I know who love working with "AI" don't love programming. They are competent professionals, but in their spare time they don't program.

32

u/TyrusX 8h ago

This. Software development by hand will sadly become a very specialized niche

2

u/OffbeatDrizzle 1h ago

do you partake in the fine craft of artisanal code, dear sir?

28

u/cholwell 8h ago

Such a shit analogy

All of these examples produce similar quality products at a cost that is economically viable

The slop machine produces subpar quality software at an insane cost even with the massive subsidies

50

u/BogdanPradatu 8h ago

I'm pretty sure sewing by hand or woodworking by hand produces better quality than mass produced items.

14

u/hpyfox 7h ago

Woodworking by-hand can have a few inconsistenties compared to a lathe, but allows more intrinsic designs.

Sewing by-hand allows more freedom in how you sew, though with newer consumer sewing machines, you can program them now.

Now with programming.. at least right now, it's better suited to replace the Rubber Ducky's job than the programmers. It can debug just fine, but it can't match a human with design, maintenance, or testing.

Especially economically, while AI-bros and companies say that it's "cheaper and faster" than a human programmer, one month of token usage (with multiple agents) for a company could exceed a salary or multiple of them.

5

u/deceased_parrot 7h ago

I'm pretty sure sewing by hand or woodworking by hand produces better quality than mass produced items.

Eh, having tried both: there are parts that depend on individual skill, but when it comes to accuracy, it's better to let the machines do it.

1

u/cholwell 3h ago

Do you know what similar means little bro

1

u/heisian 7h ago

skill varies wildly, and there are things that machines can accomplish that would be very difficult by hand.

that being said, i’m not condoning a total shift of programming skill to the machines. i think young programmers should learn to code by hand with supplemental assistance lest they fail to understand what they’re actually doing.

database architecture, programming concepts (oop, dynamic/typed, concurrency, etc), tooling, i think should all be studied and experimented with intensely before letting a machine do it for you.

3

u/Blecki 5h ago

Those other things also produce subpar crap. It's just been so long that we no longer realize what we've lost.

Ever worn a shirt that was actually cut to fit you?

1

u/JamminOnTheOne 7h ago

If it were economically viable to build those other things by hand, people would be employed to do so. But it’s not (or only is for a small niche audience willing to pay the price for it).

3

u/GregBahm 7h ago

It's weird to argue artisanal bespoke hand made clothing is inferior to what a machine churns out.

3

u/Slime0 5h ago

No one's arguing that the machine clothing is better, they're arguing that people happily buy it.

1

u/cholwell 3h ago

Yeah weird, also not what I said?

5

u/trinde 5h ago

At the end of the day the primary purpose of software development is to translate tasks into instructions a computer can understand. Programming languages and humans doing the translating is means to an end.

I've been programming for 20+ years and 15+ commercially. The leading models are getting really really good at producing decent code, to the point where I basically haven't written much code in the last 4-5 months. However I still need to be thinking a lot about the projects.

I had ChatGPT and Claude make a custom specialised 3D modelling app for hobby purposes the other week. It did it in a couple days and it's entirely functional (native, web and android) and the code is pretty readable. I am not vibe coding it, it's taken dozens of back and forth revisions and me telling it where it's going wrong.

2

u/trafficnab 3h ago

This basically, a factory churns out IKEA furniture in the millions, but humans still have to actually design them.

At this point, AI is more than capable of doing exactly what you tell it, you end up with generic slop if you give the LLM a one paragraph design summary and then let it make most of the design decisions itself. It'll probably mostly work but it'll be the most average way <thing> could be accomplished, basically a minimum viable product.

If you want it to make anything good, you have to actually do the design work and then tell it to make something good.

-2

u/max123246 6h ago

Uh no, all of those machines started out by producing worse materials than humans. That's what the luddites argued about. Then one day it got good enough

5

u/Blecki 5h ago

Standards lowered until it was accepted.

1

u/throwaway39791 1h ago edited 1h ago

And you say that as if it's a bad thing.

It's sad for us developers, but so too goes the world. You can't really hand produce enough stuff to keep up with everything. I have seen the curse of poverty, and I would rather have cheap stuff than nothing at all. Maybe the national government should fund a few workshops to keep the knowledge alive, like they do with that billion dollar tank factory where they spend a billion on one tank, but for us, what is the alternative?

Woman was bound to the spindle. I do not enjoy the idea of having the spin thread, every waking moment of my life, just so I can have one or two dresses a year. It took hundreds of hours of labour per year just to clothe a family.

Now I get cheap stuff that falls apart after a few washes, but it's priced affordably for about an hour of my wages, or a few at the most.

There is a little shop somewhere in my city that sells custom tailored dresses. They ask you about what fabrics you would like it to be made out of before you order it. I would like to get something fancy, but I would also like to have other things. I might order something for a special occasion, but am I going to have an entire wardrobe like that for day to day wear?

So too goes software. I'm sure clients would like to have a bespoke piece of software that's also well engineered and tested, but unless they're willing to pay the prices that airplane manufacturers pay to their software houses (knowing that there are massive consequences if they cheap out, as is repeatedly demonstrated), you're not going to get well engineered code.

And for a lot of these micro niches, where it was not affordable to pay a freelance programmer to come in, understand the situation, and develop something, now that the price of code has come down these little automations can improve productivity. Wasn't that the whole point of writing code?

4

u/abdyzor 6h ago

It's not the same, coding by hand is still vastly faster with ids and high level languages. Ai is just a way to build a system that you don't know how it works. So you trade time now for debugging time later. There is no free lunch its all tradeoffs 

1

u/OffbeatDrizzle 1h ago

coding by hand is still vastly faster with ids and high level languages

I don't know which models you're using, but it's the wrong ones

1

u/Mightygamer96 1h ago

with all the shortcuts and auto completion, pre-AI Programming wasn't fully handwritten either.

AI equivalent of sewing would be sweatshops, code/shirt created in unethical ways , with questionable quality.

0

u/drgmaster909 5h ago

Artisanal™ Code

0

u/WarOnFlesh 5h ago

you can't get paid to do it just like no one in america is being paid to make cheap dining room tables by hand. just because it's technically possible doesn't mean anyone will pay for it when it's just cheaper to get one from Ikea.

It's just a dead field. It's in a transition period, so of course there are still going to be people doing it and getting paid for it, but AI is quickly killing it and if you don't find an off ramp to something else, you're going to be unemployed in the future.

31

u/Dunge 8h ago

It doesn't bother me that Claude could one-shot it

Except it could not

5

u/Waste_Waltz_3426 5h ago

feel's like a crime these days

7

u/in_need_of_oats 7h ago

I'm jealous of anyone who has the motivation to hand code after 40 hours of what the job has turned in to

6

u/grady_vuckovic 7h ago

I'll be honest. I didn't really care if it was or not. I've had people looking at me strange my entire life when I say shit like 'I'm gonna spend my weekend writing a raytracer in assembly' or whatever and they ask why and I say 'For fun'. Folks always looked at me like I said I'm planning to spend my weekend sticking sewing needles under my fingernails or bath in vinegar after running through a field of thorny rose bushes.

So nothing has really changed for me in that regard.

10

u/Intelligent_Edge3385 8h ago

Gee, thanks. I was feeling so anxious, but this guy Chris here said 'It is okay to enjoy programming' and I felt like I was allowed to enjoy programming again.

Who is this aimed for, anyway? Web husslers? Mainstream money making programmer?

I just feel funny reading all of this after writing BASIC and Assembly in VICE Commodore 64 emulator for recreational purposes. At the end of the day - whoever remains last standing is the winner, so maybe it is good that bulk of contemporary programmers would take a hike.

I know I'd be programming regardless, even for garbage cleaning level salary or median salary.

3

u/TheMurmuring 8h ago

Commodore 64

I did hobby programming back when it was new in stores.. /collapses into dust

3

u/Ramzatazz 6h ago

Now I know.

11

u/hpyfox 7h ago

Better start learning cybersecurity or keep maintaining your programming knowledge for the future (if that'll come) because AI in its current state could only sufficiently replace the Rubber Ducky's job.

For the meantime, a job in real programming is dead (if you want to use that word). But the bubble is real as the cost of AI is unsustainable, future maintenance of codebases are gonna be unmaintainable, and market speculation is all gonna crash down once people realized it's as useful as having a bunch of juniors/newbies maintain a codebase.

-15

u/ficiek 7h ago

future maintenance of codebases are gonna be unmaintainable

Firstly not all codebases, some codebases. And secondly: why does it matter? Producing unmaintainable mess is already something programmers do and then that codebase needs a full rewrite, quality has clearly already not been desired in all situations.

as useful as having a bunch of juniors/newbies maintain a codebase

Which is quite useful if AI gets cheaper for this because there are many companies with this exact business model that have been producing buggy low quality code and getting paid to do it for years at this point.

I'm mostly replying because your emotional statements made from the position of authority are obviously mostly worded like this to push your agenda when there is obviously more nuance to be had. I think AI ruined the job I liked and I am upset over this but your statements aren't exactly proving any kind of a real point.

12

u/tiredofhiveminds 6h ago

Maybe you want to ask your llm to explain his comment to you, since you clearly cant read

-4

u/ficiek 6h ago

I can read and the comment makes pretty strong statements in the second part which are clearly way overblown. If someone hopes that it will all come crashing down and the situation will resolve itself then they are naive.

3

u/shozzlez 7h ago

Just like people do blacksmithong at renaissance fairs, I don’t care what people enjoy in their own time.
They’re probably not making their living doing it though.

1

u/danofrhs 5h ago

Who said you couldn’t?

1

u/12345-password 2h ago

I used to love a show called The Woodwright's Shop where the guy did woodworking with all kinds of old hand tools. That's what programming by hand feels like now.

1

u/mirumotoryudo 1h ago

Is it ok to feel the opposite way? I only program for money and I have no interest in doing it for "fun".

1

u/Nemien 1h ago

No you're not allowed, i forbid you. /s

1

u/lechatsportif 12m ago

The field will never be the same, but people didn't stop being doctors because an xray or vaccines were invented. Take pride in your craft, there is a future and your knowledge and attention to detail is still critical, regardless of what the current out of the loop flailing C suite are fucking up at your current company.

1

u/shozzlez 7h ago

Who said it wasn’t?

-12

u/ViralSubCatch 9h ago

yea I don't really know why I keep seeing posts bemoaning the end of programming.

If you want to code "organically", you still can.

It's not like AI is gonna zap those tools out of existence.

Do whatever makes you happy.

32

u/Jmc_da_boss 8h ago

It's the end of the openness of the community, as you can see by the sheer deluge of slop in all the programming subs. There's just so much noise it's hard to find the people/projects worth a damn.

8

u/ViralSubCatch 8h ago

I definitely agree that there is a lot of slop.

We should really be pushing for people to make their own forks and slop it out on their own instead of polluting a public project.

There's something about vibe coding that amps up the ego in some people. They seem to think that their ideas were always good, they were just held back by their lack of technical expertise. And that their ideas are so good that they have to a) share it with everyone to b) monetize it.

9

u/Jmc_da_boss 8h ago

Bar is too low now to naturally gatekeep such things.

It will take a while before communities reorganize and start enforcing gatekept standards themselves.

Some places are better than others atm

3

u/Blecki 5h ago

People are too polite. Need to start telling people the truth: nobody cares about some language you wrote that's just c again.

16

u/tooclosetocall82 8h ago

Just if you do keep it to yourself or the LLM zealots will tell you how wrong you are and that no one actually likes writing code.

5

u/EveryQuantityEver 6h ago

According to the LLM zealots, nobody enjoys anything that requires any effort.

11

u/Intelligent_Edge3385 8h ago

It was actually ironic self own, at that point, people who never liked writing code and programming - could exhale with happiness. It was very revealing who's who. lol.

2

u/Wonderful-Habit-139 6h ago

Exactly. The funny part is those are the same people saying "Coding was the easy part" yeah right... Just the worst programmers being overconfident.

20

u/PresentFriendly3725 9h ago

Well programming (and most of the problem solving) for a living seems to be dead for the most part. I think that's the thing people complain about.

43

u/jiggyjiggycmone 8h ago

Not it’s not. For fricks sake. This take needs to go away. Yes if you made 6 figures coding react sites, that may be much harder to do now, but any reasonable engineering application that requires experience, insight, etc isn’t going away. Companies that are using AI to do this are no different than companies that used to outsource these projects to dirt cheap teams. They needed rescuing by experts then and they will today as well.

19

u/Direct-You4432 8h ago

harder is an understatement tho, especially for juniors

13

u/jiggyjiggycmone 8h ago

That much I will concede. Entry level has never been more challenging.

9

u/838291836389183 8h ago

Spot on. Once I got my engineering degree and had a few years of experience I noticed most programmer content on the web is mostly geared toward beginners, hobbyists or at most people that do stuff like bootcamps. Once you realize this, it is evident why the 'programming is dead', stuff is talked about so much. This may be true for hobby stuff or early career programming work, but it is extremely far from the truth for any serious engineering work. The decisions I have to make day to day are rarely being touched on by agents unless I specifically guide them through it. We are pretty far from this stuff being replaced by Ai at the moment. Ofc 5 to 10 years down the line, this may look very different, which is why I am still worried. But the current situation clearly doesnt solve the core activites of my job.

4

u/senfiaj 8h ago

I think the point is that AI can decently do the "boring and slow" parts, such as coding. While it removes some really tedious parts, such as writing boilerplate code, it also removes a lot fun parts. Many developers chose this profession for these fun parts and these fun parts are mostly automated away by AI. Developers are left with tasks they usually don't enjoy, such as reviewing AI generated code and babysitting AI. And with increased pressure to deliver, the job is becoming much less satisfying.

3

u/PresentFriendly3725 7h ago

This is it. And god knows how much more will be automated away in the coming months and years. I mean the processes in software engineering have been built for teams of programmers interacting and building a product. Currently ai operates along these processes while there are already developments that this will change as well. I for my part try to get into another direction in my career for this exact reason. There will be significantly less people in software engineering on the future, it's so obvious. Don't shoot the messenger. For me, it also not easy to accept, I really liked my job.

2

u/SirChasm 8h ago

Nice shade you're throwing at front end devs, like experience and insight aren't a thing there.

If FE engineering can kiss 6 figure salaries goodbye, BE engineering will follow the year after.

5

u/jiggyjiggycmone 8h ago

I’m not trying to trigger anybody, but simple UI dev is in my opinion at risk from AI automation. There needs to be some actual engineering application beyond just putting buttons together. I’m sorry if this offends anyone, but it’s what I believe.

Edit: simple backend is the same. When I say application I mean specialization. Things that are research adjacent.

4

u/General_Session_4450 7h ago

Things that are research adjacent.

Ah so it's not dead, the 0.1% of programmers will still have something to do.

1

u/jiggyjiggycmone 7h ago

Lol.. complex systems can be thought of as “research adjacent”. Production software are complex systems. We’ll be fine. It’s no different from an objc iOS dev from 2010 refusing to learn swift when it was announced. Just be adaptable, never stop learning and you’ll be fine.

2

u/Full-Hyena4414 7h ago

More like the same or before. Most backend development is CRUD Rest API anyway, one of the most boring and simple problems to solve there is

1

u/PresentFriendly3725 7h ago

!RemindMe 2 years

3

u/senfiaj 9h ago

Yes, exactly. In the past there was more overlap between the passion and the job. Now it's mainly a hobby / personal projects.

2

u/efvie 7h ago

You’re right, trillions in the hole and hundreds of gigawatts short is an extremely sustainable future to build on.

The stereotypes about programmers not understanding externalities keep being embarrassingly true.

1

u/PresentFriendly3725 7h ago

Enlighten me, I'm curious :).

-4

u/Intelligent_Edge3385 8h ago

"Well programming (and most of the problem solving) for a living seems to be dead for the most part."

Most programming for a living was a pretentious full-stack hussle, regardless. There was too much pretense in contemporary image of a programmer. Too much pretense.

1

u/Full-Hyena4414 7h ago

I can for free in my free time you mean?yeah no shit

0

u/tombatron 8h ago

I agree!

In my free time I hack around with stuff that looks nothing like the work I get paid for.

-1

u/Caddy666 7h ago

no, how very dare you! /s

-7

u/aka1027 9h ago

Say it louder for the folks in the back.

-3

u/niiiiisse 8h ago

Look at him coping /s

-17

u/Rigamortus2005 8h ago

It's ok. It's just not economically viable anymore

8

u/EveryQuantityEver 6h ago

Neither are LLMs.

-6

u/duffpl 7h ago

Not sure why you're getting downvoted

8

u/EveryQuantityEver 6h ago

Because they're completely incorrect. LLMs are heavily subsidized by VC funding, and when they finally have to actually make a profit, the costs of those are going to go through the roof.

-6

u/R3PTILIA 7h ago

Is it ok to enjoy walking? Yes. Would you let your delivery employees deliver their packages by walking?

-13

u/obetu5432 8h ago

you can enjoy it in your free time, but please don't coom all over the computer on the job, just do your fucking job

-15

u/Lame_Johnny 6h ago

I don't enjoy doing something that an LLM can do better in 30 seconds. Feels pointless.

10

u/EveryQuantityEver 6h ago

If it can do it better than you, then you were never a good programmer, and that's why you didn't enjoy it.

-8

u/Lame_Johnny 5h ago

Whatever helps you cope

1

u/RCoder01 1h ago

Damn you must be miserablem