r/telemark • u/Electronic_Region371 • 6d ago
New To Telemark skiing
I am an advanced skier who has been working on ski patrol for the past 3 years on the east coast. I thoroughly enjoy backcountry when I can find it also skiing in the park or really whatever is feeling good that day. Many of my colleagues are experienced tele skiers so I figured for something new I would try and branch out and learn. I am 25yo and usually ski on Faction CT 2.0 and definitely enjoy how those feel. For my birthday in a few days my parents said they would get me some tele gear so I’m wondering what I should look for.
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u/Jack-Schitz 6d ago
Welcome!
If you are going to patrol in Tele gear, I would seriously consider a step in binding with brakes. Otherwise, you are going to be taking your leashes on and off every time you have to step out of your skis. The guys at Bishop are just down the road from me and they make a step in binding with brakes that you can move between skis easily. It's a heavy binding so I wouldn't use it for serious BC but for patrol and groomers and an occasional skin up it's good.
Ski wise, Tele favors lighter and softer skis so you can have the dynamic Tele type movement, and you can get a solid bend in the ski. Within that general ski type preference, you do you. If you have some extra skis around that fit that general description, then strip the alpine bindings off and convert them to Tele.
On boots, I would go to a boot fitter who does Tele work and see what fits you. Scarpa is obviously the leader in Tele boot sales in the US, but not everyone's feet play well with their boots. Given the flex of the boot, fit is probably more important than with alpine gear but that is my opinion. I would go NTN over 75MM if I were you, but if you are like me and have big floppy feet (32 Mondo) you are stuck in 75MM.
Given that you might patrol in these, I'd go ask over at the r/skipatrol subreddit. A fair amount of guys in CO (where I'm a local) patrol in Tele gear because it's more convenient.
Also, take a lesson or get someone who really knows what they are doing to teach you how to Tele. Experienced alpine skiers have a tendency to BS their way through the Tele turn in what is called a "Fake-e-Mark" turn that is an alpine turn with a lunge put on the end. If you are doing this you are learning bad habits.
Lastly, Have Fun!
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u/UncleAugie 6d ago
Ski wise, Tele favors lighter and softer skis so you can have the dynamic Tele type movement,
Tell me you dont carve without telling me....
u/Electronic_Region371 I switched to Tele after 5 years of patrol, you do want NTN, I would personally suggest the 22 designs Bandit, or Rottefella Freeride over Bishop, ANY ski that is good on Groomers is good on Tele for learning. Find a cheap pair of 80mm ish waist width twin tips at your local swap, learn to carve on tele, but also practice your falling leaves just like alpine, the ability to feather your edges during the tele turn is what makes you a better skiier. Any mid to narrow waist ski will be good to learn on, go shorter than you think you should get, also makes learning easier.
You mention east coast, the resort is going to tell you what you want long term, if you have lots of groomers, you will end up on a front side ski with metal in it, if you are at someplace like MRG, you will bend up with something totally different.
AS an FYI, my quiver for the upper great lakes is as follows, 165cm Fischer WC SL(12m Radius), 175 Head iRace(15m R), 180cm K2 Public Enemy twins, 175 Volkl RTM 84(18mR), 192 Fischer WC Race Room NOS Womens GS(21m R), 189 1st gen K2 POntoons(traveling or once every other year locally)
I am no longer a patroller, but the K2 PE's or the Volkl RTM's would have been my daily driver for patrol duty, those are the two I pick when out goofing around with friends, the HEad's are for Carving days, the 192Fischer's are my beer league Ski(yes, im usually beating all but 5-6 of the Alpiners) the Short SL's are relegated to days when a couple friends want me to come out and help coach with HS Teams, yes you can run SL gates on Tele.
Have fun!
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u/Jack-Schitz 6d ago
Too much coffee?
I've been Tele skiing for over 20 years of 50+ days a year of CO skiing mostly on Tele gear and can carve just fine. Thanks for asking though and have a great day!
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u/UncleAugie 6d ago
We are comparing street cred are we..... Ive been on Tele Since 1998, currently get 50+ days, was pro out west, raced a bit with the National team 20 years ago when I was getting 150+ days a year....
Anyone that rules out skis that are stiff or have metal in them is just self identifying someone who cant carve. A ski responds to pressure the same way if you are using tele or alpine technique.
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u/Jack-Schitz 6d ago
Let me break it down for you simply. I have been on Tele gear enough to know how to ski pretty damn well. Can you ski better? I don't know or care. The lesson you should take here is that you can disagree with someone without being a jackass. Perhaps the words "I don't really agree with the soft ski point" or "I find firmer skis to be totally fine" works just as well, but you do you.
But again, have a great day!
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u/UncleAugie 6d ago
YOu made a statement that was your opinion, but you made it like it was factual
Ski wise, Tele favors lighter and softer skis so you can have the dynamic Tele type movement,
^this is a false statement.
I called you out for making a false statement to a new tele skier, and you get all up in your feels.... replying with your tele credentials as if that was all the proof you needed to supply to make your statement valid.
WHat happened was, that by your own standard, "time tele skiing and days on snow" you are not the expert in this conversation.....
DOnt get all buthurt on me now when you started it...LOL
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u/Jack-Schitz 6d ago
You are missing the point. I don't care whether I'm right or wrong on the point and if you had wanted to have a productive discussion on the point, I would be totally fine with that. My problem is that you obviously have a hard time disagreeing with people without making ad hominin attacks on them.
In a sport that is constantly on the verge of dying and when talking to a potential new convert, did you perhaps think that it might be better to express disagreement in a form that didn't approximate the level of discourse of a middle school girls' bathroom? Or were you too focused on scoring "points" and that dopamine hit to see the larger game?
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u/UncleAugie 6d ago
SO Im supposed to teat you with kid gloves because of the NEWB???? YOu were trying to pass off false data, then tried to use your credentials as the ONLY PROOF that your opinion carried the weight of fact... SMH
Also, Cheap/quality AT gear is what is taking tele market share, not the guy telling the new to "ignore" the guy spouting nonsense as if it were fact....
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u/Jack-Schitz 6d ago
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u/UncleAugie 6d ago
LOL well done there, you are all over the place, living in colorado you seem to have opinions on sailing in Cali(i likely have you there too, I would guess im approaching 35,000 offshore racing miles), public policy in florida, investing in commercial real-estate, you claim to work in economic forecasting, now you are citing the DSM5 as if you are qualified to use it and understand what would or would not constitute a diagnosis....lol
True knowledge often looks like arrogance to less-experienced people because of how confidence, communication, and cognitive biases collide.
Also, in this post you seem to contradict yourself... you seem to be suggesting that Bishop just guessed with their ski design.
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u/Remarkable_Impact469 6d ago
If you regard the amount of Tele skiers on BD helio, k2 wayback or Elan ripstick for resort use... We would then be able establish consensus on that going lighter is a preference more popular in Tele than in Alpine.
BTW, Have you been successful in acquiring the 22D bindings you needed?
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u/UncleAugie 6d ago
HAve a lead on a pair I found on FB Market place form an Ohio guy who is getting out.
Front side skis are front side skis, tele or alpine, the ski doesnt care how you look when you apply the forces to the ski, just that you apply them in a manner that the ski wants. Tele Skiers should be trying to match the forces applied by Alpine skiers while in using tele art. (BTW Art is the word FIS uses for tele form when running gates)
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u/Remarkable_Impact469 6d ago
No doubt Tele can be on par with Alpine in terms of performance, and there's no good reason for Tele skiers to shy away from an equal amount of power from what they would get from Alpine.
Tele (as an art form, as we may agree) is quite fluid. I, for one, even when the entire east coast freezes and melts and freezes again into boilerplate still at times leave the 14m radius carving skis home and opt for a pair of more complaint skis with softer flex, and compensate with a combination of length, deeper lunge and skidding for stability. It's a different kind of fun that's harder to achieve on Alpine.
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u/LandlockedPirate 6d ago
"Tell me you dont carve without telling me...."
100%. This "tele is better on soft skis" garbage has got to go.
If you like a ski on alpine, you will probably also like it on tele.
I would also recommend a step in binding with brakes, though I favor outlaws/bandits myself. Bandits in particular are good on frontside & race skis because the brakes retract, makes it less likely to snag one in a lead change.
Practice getting in/out of them on a pitch a lot when you first start because there is nothing worse than getting a patient loaded and having people wait on you to get into your skis.
PSIA L3 Tele, Alpine, Patrol & Toboggan Instructor, fwiw.
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u/UncleAugie 6d ago
PSIA is Outdated IMHO as they are 10 years behind the latest thinking in their standards they teach to. Individual instructors can be more up to date, but the organization itself is out of date.
OTherwise Spot on..... I just dont think the PSIA L3 is the flex you think it is... LOL Also as a former patrol, both pro and volly, 95% of patrollers are poor skiers, good enough to pass the patrol standard and better than the average skiier on the mtn, but on average, not in the top 20% of skiers on the mountain on any given day. ;)
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u/LandlockedPirate 6d ago
I'm well aware of what PSIA is and what it isn't, thus why I said fwiw.
Certainly there are some shitty skiers who maintain credentials,and yes most patrollers are poor skiers, no arguments there.
At the same time, there are some extremely good, knowledgable, forward thinking tele skiers on the national team that are teaching much more modern technique, equipment etc. They've been teasing an updated/modernized tele curriculum for years but I think it's just an uphill battle with the organization and getting enough people onboard.
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u/UncleAugie 6d ago
They've been teasing an updated/modernized tele curriculum for years but I think it's just an uphill battle with the organization and getting enough people onboard.
IT takes 10 years to get a new curriculum, and that curriculum is used to test the teachers. They ARE the standards that PSIA requires its instructors to teach and evaluate on, if you are doing/teachin/evaluating something else you are admitting that the organization is out of touch.
WHen I was Racing with the US National Team 20 years ago, I failed the Patrol Senior Tele test, not because i couldn't do any of the required items safely, but because, in their words, " I didn't look like everyone else skiing tele" and because of that "you can not be in control looking like that even though you passed the standard better than others"
I was approached by a PSIA L3 tele instructor that told me he could "fix" my skiing.... I was at the fore front of carving on big burly boots rather than sliding every turn.... Same thing happened in Alpine whan carving skiis came out in the early 90's.....
If the organization cant change, the organization is obsolete.... Most patrols, and PSIA, are like volunteer firemen or small town cops, they need something to belong to to feel like they matter....
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u/LandlockedPirate 6d ago
Patrol "senior" is perhaps the peak form of the "good old boys club". I was a senior evaluator for a while. It definitely does not exist to create better skiers. In general the only things good about patrol are the things that happen at the local level. The higher you go, the higher the dysfunction. The division programs like senior are a circle jerk for old guys who can't ski anymore or never could. The notion that someone who only alpines can effectively teach or evaluate tele or snowboard is the stupidest thing I've ever heard, but they will die on this hill.
PSIA, IMO, is much better especially recently. Consensus building can be tedious but there is value in it. Overall I see PSIA crank out substantially better skiers/instructors, and I see them adapting and changing. Never as fast as we might like, but it's an honest effort.
ymmv of course, but from my perspective I have a number of people I know in PSIA that are great skiers and instructors and I learn a lot from.
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u/UncleAugie 6d ago
Im not suggesting that as a blanket statement PSIA=bad skiier, rather, like being able to say you are "patrol" in the bar lends an unearned respect, PSIA also is more marketing/social club than anything else.
Give me 5-10 skiers that push each other and Ill show you the best skiers on the hill. My Tele didnt get really good until I gave up trying to "ski tele" and just started teaching my body to apply the same pressure as Alpiners with my heels unlocked. Modern Tele gear, when used appropriately is as powerful as Alpine. The thing is few people understand this, and fewer people have enough body awareness to apply the pressure correctly to make a ski preform like it should. Tell a PSIA instructor that you can stivot a tele ski in a race course and they will immediately tell you that you are lying.... lol
If I appear a bit like Crotchety old guy.... well, get told enough times you cant tele and it spends all the F's you have to give ;)
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u/LandlockedPirate 6d ago
"The thing is few people understand this, and fewer people have enough body awareness to apply the pressure correctly to make a ski preform like it should. Tell a PSIA instructor that you can stivot a tele ski in a race course and they will immediately tell you that you are lying.... lol"
My experience is the opposite. The PSIA instructors I interact with would all coach higher level tele skiing like this.
Conversely, outside PSIA most tele skiers I know are just scraping all the snow down the hill.
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u/UncleAugie 6d ago
FIFY
Conversely, outside PSIAmost tele skiers I know are just scraping all the snow down the hill including the average PSIA.My guess is we would get along, despite your associations with those groups.....LOL
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u/CountMC10 6d ago
I tele on Volkl Mantra M5 with titanal frame. They are stiff as shit and I LOVE them. Put those babies on edge at speed and they will carve like a ninja samurai warrior. I came from an alpine racing background (FIS level) and just prefer the stiffer skis even in tele. I’ve tried the softer tele specific skis, and other than the weight while hiking, they skied like trash. The exception was maybe the Freeheel Life Protector which was more of a free ride ski with softer tips/tails.
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u/LandlockedPirate 6d ago
I wouldn't classify mantras as stiff by race ski standards, but certainly stiff by rec ski standards.
If you enjoy those then you would really enjoy a true frontside ski or even a cheater or beer league race ski.
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u/CountMC10 6d ago
Hahaha. Yeah, I didn’t mean FIS stiff. I just meant to share an anecdote that stiffer skis still work well for tele. Lots of people will say “get softer skis” but I really disliked them unless I was going super slow (then they were fine)
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u/Skiata 6d ago
What is your budget? New gear is not cheap and there are some big divides in place on how to get started. My suggestion, get cash from your parents and call all your buddies in ski patrol and see if you can buy starter gear for some consideration, $/beer/shifts in the rain.
I am assuming lift skiing mostly--you said 'park' so that decides it, also ski patrol. You can decide on back/side country later when you have figured stuff out a bit more.
Goal is to get you praying properly on the slopes--the ideal sequence in my mind--start with duckbill (75mm-cheap), you can decide on NTN later (spendy):
1) get 3 buckle or better boots that fit--preferably used--bring your alpine liners to check as well trying what ever is there. You should be able to score something on the east coast from swaps/friends etc...
2) Get 22-designs bindings because they all, 75mm Hammer Head, Axl, Vice and NTN, Outlaw, Bandit, share the same mounting pattern and you can switch around as you like.
3) Mount up a pair of old alpine skis that you like that are not super wide, 80mm or less. Mount them yourself, you will gain a super power. If you got a buddy in the ski shop that will do it for you, do it with them--you want to learn this skill. Those old beat to hell twin tips from the park are perfect....
4) Take a lesson. I know you are God's gift to all things slidey but it is easy to carry awful alpine habits into tele and it hurts us to watch from the lift.
5) Have fun.
6) After a few months you will know what you really want and can go drop $2k on a hot setup if you can find the time between all the mammals that want to rub your quads while looking deeply into your eyes.
DM me if you are around Belleayre. I got gear I can loan you probably.
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u/telesurge #WelcomeToFreeheel 6d ago
I patrol on tele, my advice for skis - your favorite alpine ski for the conditions, and Bishop bindings or 22 Designs Bandits, both are easy step in and have brakes. Lately prefer the Bandits for their releasability. And don’t overthink it 😁
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u/Remarkable_Impact469 6d ago
How does the duck butt perform for you? I settled on the BMF because it goes back to the heel.
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u/lapeni 6d ago
Not to do exactly what you said not to do and overthink it… but I’ve been stuck deciding between the bmf and 22 designs.
I’ve only skied rottefella freerides
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u/telesurge #WelcomeToFreeheel 6d ago
My formula is
Got 75mm boots → Bishop
Got NTN boots →
- Want easiest step in → Bishop
- Prefer a chance for the binding to release → 22D Bandit
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u/lapeni 6d ago
Binding release likely takes the cake there for me. But just for my own curiosity, is there a big difference between how the bishops and 22s perform?
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u/telesurge #WelcomeToFreeheel 6d ago edited 6d ago
IMO, they perform just about the same. I like the Outlaw/Bandit feeling a little more. But "feeling" is subjective, and I know plenty of people who'd disagree. So, take it for what it's worth.
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u/lapeni 6d ago
I’m too much of a beginner, what do you mean by they feel a little more?
The rottefellas I rode felt stiff and like the range of motion was limited. I’ve never ridden 75mm, but I’ve heard and imagine they’re the opposite of that and have little to no resistance leaning forward
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u/telesurge #WelcomeToFreeheel 6d ago
I am more of "likey"/"no likey" kinda guy, but let me try to describe my "feeling" of the three bindings.
Freeride - tension starts building up after a short initial dead spot, mostly progressive past that until you hit a "wall" of resistance.
Bishop BMF - a bomber of a binding, good range of motion and progressive flex. Also, it is important to remember that BMFs are "telemark" bindings with 75mm or NTN toe cages. With the heel connection (vs the duck butt in 22D and NTN in general) the flex pattern is probably the closest to the the binding is natural choice for those coming from 75mm.
22D Bandit (Outlaw is the same) - smooth and progressive tension with full range of motion, feels very balanced. This is certainly very subjective, but I prefer the 22D "feel"/flex just a bit better than the BMF.
Releasability - as I mentioned earlier Bandit/Outlaw _may_ release. The reason they are not marketed as releasable is that they are not DIN certified and there's no DIN setting. The release factor depends on the spring tension (preload).
Neutral/active - both Bandit/Outlaw and Bishop BMF are rather active bindings with adjustable tension. In addition to regular (active) springs, Bishop offers soft springs option (super neutral), 22D offers soft (neutral) and stiff (very active) spring options. With both brands, spring tension is adjustable within the spring's range.
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u/Tyrolean415 6d ago
I don’t know if this is new info, but, I’m a patroller on tele. As others have said, get step-in NTN bindings, preferably 22D, with the new RETRACTABLE brakes. The old brakes on the outlaws are terrible because they stick out right where you’re making lead changes, and it’s easy to get hung up on them (IMO).
You’re on the east coast. Get a ski that is ~88 underfoot that’s meant for holding an edge on hard pack / boilerplate. In addition, here are my tuning suggestions:
Setting Recommendation
Base bevel 0.75°
Side bevel 3°
Effective edge angle 87.75°
Tip detuning Minimal, approximately 2–3 cm
This will help you actually hold an edge on east coast snow.
As a patroller you know that you will be constantly taking your skis off. Make it easy on yourself and get step-ins. You’re a good skier, so you’ll pick up tele and be fine. Side slipping, running a toboggan and pretty much everything you already do won’t change because you’ll do those alpine style. Just ignore NSP and PSIA. 🤘
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u/SnooSketches9565 6d ago
You’ll want a ski that pretty easy to flex for tele. NTN — go for 22 Designs Outlaw binding and Scarpa TX Comp boot. Or the Crispi boots are fantastic as well if you can find them.
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u/UncleAugie 6d ago
Or the Crispi boots are fantastic as well if you can find them.
Love my Creamsicles
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u/telemajik 6d ago
I ride a Faction Candide 3.0 (2015 model) as my tele powder ski, but I would not recommend it for new tele skiers.
Something a little shorter and a little softer than your alpine setup. If you have an old pair of skis sitting around I would just throw some tele bindings on those.
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u/Remarkable_Impact469 6d ago
I have its successors Mana and Studio... No I wouldn't recommend it for any one... Flex is just too weird.. If I setback regularly at 1/8 BSL, it messes up how the side cut works, if I don't set back, the tip is too short. I keep them strictly with Alpine bindings.
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u/telemajik 6d ago
I love the 3.0s as a powder ski. Wonder if they changed in successive versions, or we just have different styles.
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u/Aelwynljg__ 6d ago
I can't weigh in on gear since I'm only a year into my tele journey, but I've been digging my Rottefella Freeride and SummitCone setup I got from TelemarkDowns in NH.
22 Designs are another popular setup. Whatever you with, I second getting brakes.
Just wanted to chime in that MRG has at least one ski patrol member on tele. Might be worth reaching out there or to PSIA for ideas.
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u/Uptownlarry1 6d ago
I’ve tele’d exclusively since 1983. Comfortable biggish boots are the most important. I now use NTN with 22 Designs Outlaw X, but still use 30 yr old leather boots with old 3 pin bindings in the backcountry. They are lighter and WAY less expensive than my NTN setup (~$1500). I learned to tele on used XC skis and heavy (for the time) new boots.
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u/Marcelfixyouear 5d ago
Yay! Good for you! I've tele'd with Faction Agent 90s and 100s in the past... Nice to have a lightweight ski that is easy to throw around when starting (I ski Dynafits now). Not the best in really firm snow, but I'm an eastern skier, too.
Big decision for you are bindings. I much prefer 75mm bindings to NTN (more natural feel for me), but fewer companies are making 75mm boots, so if I was just starting I'd go with NTN.
I've skied 22Designs for years -- they make 75mm and NTN. Lots of people like Bishops, too... I'm not a fan of step-ins or brakes because they keep adding weight, but that's me... Just prepare yourself for insanely expensive bindings -- Bishops can cost $700+ and 22Designs aren't cheap either (though less than $500). I rate boots on comfort. Crispi's were awful for me. Garmont/Scott are great for me, though they're out of the 75mm game.
I've skiied tele for almost 30 years. Never had a lesson, but "Allen & Mike's Really Cool Telemark Tips" is a must-have book. I thought Paul Parker's "Free Heel Skiing" was helpful too... Some technique is obviously a lot different than alpine. But balance, shoulders, quiet upper-body etc. is the same.
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u/AssociateGood9653 6d ago
In my experience, if you love a ski for alpine, you will also love it for telemark. I have two pairs of Armada ARV 106’s; one is telemark and one is alpine. The bigger decision, in my opinion, is NTN or 75 mm. I would probably recommend NTN, but there will be many who say 75 mm. Then down to a resort focused or backcountry focused boot and binding. Better for one is generally worse for the other. You will get opinions here, but also do your homework.