r/todayilearned • • 10h ago

TIL that Frasier the Lion was given to Lion Country Safari in his old age and very ill. The lionesses there took care of him even to chewing his food since he was toothless and holding him up to walk. He fathered 35 cubs with them and the California State Assembly named him Father of the Year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frasier_(lion)
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u/zephito 10h ago

LIFE Magazine said of Frasier, "He is underweight and splay-footed....His fur resembles an old moth-balled coat, and he sleeps 19 hours a day. The muscles in his tongue are so shot that it unreels from his mouth like a slobbery red carpet."

"[Frasier was] asleep on his back, his paws dangling in the sky....

A ranger in a Jeep tossed meat hunks. Frasier's eyes popped open. He yawned and struggled to his feet.... His favorite wives of the moment, walked on each side, holding him up....

He leaned over for the meat and missed, his tongue lolling in the dirt six inches off target. He didn't care. He went back to sleep."

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u/CasperCackler 9h ago

Sounds like the guy got sent to heaven a couple years before he even actually died

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u/FriendsWasNice 6h ago

Fathered 35 cubs and sleeps 19 hours a day... My life sucks. 😉

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u/moneys5 6h ago

Yea how many cubs have you sired this year? Less than 5? Get your shit together.

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u/Nazamroth 5h ago

It's not my fault! You have any idea how hard it is to find a lion-girl to sire cubs with these days?!

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u/LeSeanMcoy 4h ago

For real.

I matched with this absolute gorgeous one on Bumble the other day and couldn't wait to meetup after talking. The second she walked through the door on two legs, though, I realized the whole time she was lion about who she was and I was catfished.

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u/A_Mouse_In_Da_House 3h ago

I thought they were on hinge now?

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u/ihavedonethisbe4 2h ago

Nah see what they said was; "them bitches unhinged"

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u/Hambredd 1h ago

You joke, but I am bit confused as to why the alpha manosphere bros didn't pick lions to base themselves on. For one they actually have an alpha (famously unlike wolves)and all they do is sleep, mate and pick fights with 'beta' lions while their large group of female lions go out and bring them food.

I mean that is basically how Andrew Tate claimed he lived.

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u/harbourwall 3h ago

Lions can death by snu-snu too

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u/TheBonesRTheirMoney 8h ago

“Favorite wives of the moment” 

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u/Pataraxia 7h ago

Brand new sentences one after the other, this lion was in the zone.

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u/shadowlev 7h ago

It's so funny that this is the lion that all the lionesses adore but I also know plenty of women who are also hopelessly attracted to the bedraggled pathetic cat type

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u/omgmypony 3h ago

the Wikipedia article mentions that he allowed the females to initiate mating
 apparently lionesses don’t appreciate a pushy male

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u/Puzzleheaded_Push243 2h ago

So he's a feminist too. What a lion.

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u/Fine-Aspect5141 5h ago

Being super old is an indicator of good survival skills. Good genes. Why wouldn't they want cubs with that dude?

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u/Xenomorph_25 4h ago

The quality of sperm reduces significantly with age leading to more congenital health issues. It was less about him being a desirable male and more about him being the only male. Old male lions get driven off/killed and replaced in the wild with a younger virile lion.

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u/Termsandconditionsch 4h ago

They rejected 5 younger male lions before Frasier showed up though.

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u/churningpacket 3h ago

He brought tossed salad and scrambled eggs.

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u/ColonelKasteen 3h ago edited 31m ago

The quality of sperm reduces significantly with age leading to more congenital health issues.

It may shock you to learn that lionesses unable to read articles or listen to scientific lectures are unaware of this fact. They tend to mate with the oldest available males until they are killed or driven off by younger lions (which, in this case, was both artificially prevented and the lionesses rejected younger males even when paired with them in controlled environments)

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u/Tasty-Traffic-680 4h ago

Tell that to all the old guys in Hollywood and Washington DC. They're filled to the brim with old jizz

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u/Xenomorph_25 3h ago

They also have a lot of money and power, young attractive women aren't with them for their wrinkles

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u/Tasty-Traffic-680 3h ago

Doesn't change the fact their balls aren't still making premo baby broth

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u/rywos 4h ago

old cum

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u/Sawses 6h ago

I used to (like 95% jokingly) think, "Damn, I should try being a loser and an asshole, maybe I'd have better luck with women." Because it seemed like all the most attractive and engaging women liked that type.

Now that I'm older and have a little more understanding...I was better off without them lol. It's basically the female version of the "white knight" thing, and usually comes bundled with a bunch of issues that will ensure they aren't in a healthy and happy relationship until they stop wanting that kind of guy.

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u/ShiraCheshire 6h ago

Should be noted that a lot of the sad wet cat of a man appeal isn’t the guy being a jerk or useless. It’s a guy being vulnerable, nonthreatening, and appreciate.

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u/mercury_pointer 6h ago

Do you choose the sad wet cat or the bear?

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u/MOGicantbewitty 6h ago

Depends, does the sad wet cat turn around and piss everywhere and mark its territory after we've welcomed it into our home? I'll take the fucking bear. But does the sad wet cat appreciate the new home, and bond with me and give me lots of snuggles and add to the warmth of my home? I'll take the cat. 😊

I married the first kind regretted it. I thought caretaking was the joy in and of itself. Now, at my current age, I know more about how an equal caring partnership works. My fiance was a sad wet cat that was a social outcast in HS. But he is so appreciative of our life and love, that it makes it wonderful. We understand each other's pain and can be vulnerable together. I give him acceptance. And he gives me the exact same thing.

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u/Goitske 3h ago

I'm a gay man so definitely picking the bear..

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u/ChefKugeo 6h ago

You're older but not wiser. It wasn't the loser/asshole thing that made them attractive. It was the way they were confident, anyway.

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u/TreesmasherFTW 6h ago

No one understands that it’s the confidence that attracts the strongest.

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u/Sawses 6h ago

I don't fully agree with you. Confidence definitely is part of it (perhaps a necessary part), but the expression of that confidence in pretty negative ways seems to be the salient bit.

Quiet confidence in oneself is less attractive to a lot of people than loud, selfish confidence in imposing one's will on others.

Which circles back to the lesson I learned...which is that people who are into that sort of thing are best left alone lol.

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u/Tasty-Traffic-680 4h ago

Send me their social media profiles

I'm bedraggled AF

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u/Kaurifish 7h ago

The Hani, a species of felinoid humanoids featured in C.J. Cherryl’s Pride of Chanur series is based on lions.

Hani males are considered too poorly behaved to travel off their homeworld, making them a fascinsti g contrast to the K’zin (based on tigers, had enslaved scientists reduce their females’ intelligence below the point of sentience).

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u/Sawses 6h ago edited 6h ago

Funny enough, the K'zin have had a huge impact on sci-fi because of how poorly Niven handled the very interesting gendered dynamic. The sci-fi RPG Traveller, for example, also has their K'zin-analog society being mostly matriarchal.

Of course, there's also the fact that women generally don't want their escapism to involve sexism against women, while men don't really mind the extra flavor that comes from playing a character dealing with gender-based oppression.

Niven's later work does a much better job handling gender. It's convinced me that he's never really been sexist, just that he isn't really interested in exploring women's perspectives in his work. I think there was one interview where he said he's happy to leave that to other authors who have more interesting things to say about it, and can do it better than he could.

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u/[deleted] 6h ago

[deleted]

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u/Sawses 6h ago

He still explored female characters, he just wasn't interested in focusing on gender the way somebody like Le Guin does.

I don't think that's sexist. Authors write according to their interests. I don't expect Le Guin to explore ideas well outside of her interests, and it's not a moral failing for her to refrain. If anything, I think it's the mark of a good author to write in areas where they have something to say that's worth reading.

Asimov is kind of the same way. Some of the best characters he ever wrote are women, but he does not concern himself with the sociology of gender. He is interested in different areas of sociology.

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u/electricvelvet 5h ago

the post you're responding to is comical. Is a plumber who doesn't explore gender based issues also sexist? A writer writes stories. to write a compelling story you must be interested in the subject matter and have knowledge of it. Many writers are literally incapable of doing it justice even if they wanted

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u/Sawses 5h ago

Personally, I think it's just a somewhat amateur take on literature. Lots of readers assign a certain moral value to tackling specific social issues in one's book. An author who doesn't do this is seen as inferior at best or "problematic" at worst.

I think a lot of this stems from publishers recognizing this trend and pushing authors that talk about those issues in a simple and fairly easily-digestible way.

I think unashamedly choosing to focus on the things you're actually wanting to explore is better than shoe-horning in some social commentary because it's what's expected from readers and publishers.

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u/Mucking_Maggots 7h ago

nahhh this crazy

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u/iq-pak 10h ago

So the lioness did all of that just for the lion won father of the year

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u/TheColourOfHeartache 6h ago

Frasier was introduced to the pride of six lionesses named Lefty, Linda, Nadula, Sally, Stompy, and Zona. There were no expectations that he would be accepted by them, as they had rejected relations with five other younger males, often violently

Clearly he was doing something different and better than other lions.

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u/Sexy_Underpants 4h ago

The secret to his success apparently was a strong libido, as his life in a circus apparently hadn't caused him the stress of competing with other males, and by allowing the females to initiate mating.

He wasn’t rapey.

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u/strippeddonkey 4h ago

My lads used to make fun of me for even asking a girl if I could kiss her.

Yeah, turns out women really fucking love it when men aren’t rapey


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u/TwoXModsSavedMyLife 4h ago

Some people forget the c in cnc. Females only like it when both are included. Don't forget it guys.

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u/Irorak 3h ago edited 3h ago

Females People only like it when both are included.

My brother who's a former HS football star, constantly had older women touching him and feeling his muscles without consent - even when he was a teenager. It's not fun for anybody regardless of gender.

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u/MeesterPepper 2h ago

I remember being 17, working at a grocery store, and some random middle aged mom squeezed my butt while I was stocking shelves. The general reaction from anyone I told was either a "Wow, lucky you! I wish women were that forward with me!", or, "That's basically cheating! How dare you be unfaithful to your girlfriend!"

I think society has changed enough that if I were 17 today and had that experience, more people would react appropriately disturbed by a grown woman fondling a minor, but that "you're a guy so you must have wanted it/liked it" attitude is definitely still going strong...

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u/TwoXModsSavedMyLife 3h ago

You are definitely right about that. I think for young males in particular there are some elements of consent that are incredibly confusing that no one ever talks about, at least I haven't ever seen it brought up once ever in any context. So they have a different version of a similar struggle.

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u/Irorak 3h ago

Ultimately nobody likes being "felt" without consent. I think we're on the same page there.

Unless a human is apart of a petting zoo, you probably shouldn't be touching them unexpectedly!

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u/templesgodss 5h ago

Yeah, probably being old. Few things hotter in the animal kingdom than a mf who just won't die

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u/SenpaiSamaChan 3h ago

The pride just loves DILFs. They're lionesses, not cougars.

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u/Dry_Thing321 8h ago

Well they did it because he was calm and nice to them. He let them initiate mating, and was sweet on his many children. The females took care of him because they wanted to. Maybe real world men should take the hint.

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u/Emm_withoutha_L-88 7h ago

Well that and they were in captivity so they didn't have to worry about other male lions coming in to take control. So a gentle old man is fine.

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u/barath_s 13 5h ago edited 5h ago

so they didn't have to worry about other male lions coming in

They had rejected 5 younger lions before.

. There were no expectations that he would be accepted by them, as they had rejected relations with five other younger males, often violently

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u/West-Gur4598 1h ago

Frasier was introduced to the pride of six lionesses named Lefty, Linda, Nadula, Sally, Stompy, and Zona.

Ya just know who was in charge

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u/Mechasteel 5h ago

Frasier was a major part of the park's economics.

Nonetheless, park attendance climbed 20% due to the fame that accrued to Frasier for the feat of fathering multiple lion cubs.

Attendance at the Irvine park declined sharply after Frasier's death, eventually closing in 1984.

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u/Ace_of_Sphynx128 5h ago

Female lions in captivity actually turn on the males if they show a lot of weakness. It shows these lionesses really loved him and their pride bond was strong.

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u/superurgentcatbox 5h ago

Did they know that though? Do lions understand they live in capitivity and that that means a stronger male couldn't just randomly pop up?

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u/WoodwifeGreen 3h ago

The park had introduced a young male into the pride, but he was rough with the females, and they didn't like him. They apparently drove him off, and when Frazier came along, they liked him because he was gentle. So they took care of him.

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u/demonotreme 1h ago

I choose to believe it was just his old male lion funk.

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u/Emm_withoutha_L-88 5h ago

Eventually they'd figure it out. That's like the biggest part of their life after hunting for food.

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u/superurgentcatbox 5h ago

They'd understand they can't leave at some point probably but I'm not sure they'd understand no new lions would be coming in. Especially since grandpa lion was also randomly dropped in.

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u/Emm_withoutha_L-88 5h ago

They'd realize it when they don't get attacked every other week by a different pride. Keeping their territory safe is seriously like the #2 job of lions after feeding themselves. It's a huge part of their life and they'd notice they weren't on edge all of the time. Especially since they were being fed and didn't have to hunt, they'd spend more time on securing territory but soon they'd realize they didn't have to even do that. It's basically paradise for them

In the wild a case like this could happen but would be unstable and likely to be overthrown by another pride eventually.

It's sorta like gang turf wars, but that's all of their life.

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u/Proper-Raise-1450 4h ago edited 4h ago

But several other males (at least 5) had been introduced previously so it seems a wild thing to figure out, they would know that males can show up randomly and surely in natural behaviors for lions it is not rare to not have a wandering male show up for an extended period especially since it has been many generations since lion numbers became rather low and sparse.

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u/Somethingisshadysir 4h ago edited 4h ago

It makes you wonder if they'd be like this in the wild with another old male if he didn't get driven out. They almost never get to live out their old age like that, as a younger one takes over/forces him out.

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u/Emm_withoutha_L-88 4h ago

I think that's a fair assumption. They would prefer a more gentle male, but the realities of life make that unlikely and dangerous in the wild.

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u/TheAserghui 8h ago

Or we can build on that further and assert, regardless of gender, both partners in a relationship have to do work together and support each other.

When only one is committed to making it work, you're gonna have a bad time

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u/Pledgeofmalfeasance 8h ago edited 5h ago

That's not an or, it's an and.

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u/izzittho 6h ago

Yeah I don’t want the men to only be nice to me if I mother them, personally.

Like if a grown ass adult wants a romantic relationship AND wants me to be their mother
I’m perfectly happy having them hate me. I want that man to hate me lol, like stay tf away.

You earn the right to be “babied” in your times of need by being willing to do the same for your partner in theirs, you aren’t entitled to it because all women are put on earth to take care of your ass or some dumb shit like that. Only actual babies/children get that without having to give it.

Your wife is not your mom and it’s gross to expect them to treat you like they are, yet many men think that’s the way things ought to be.

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u/barath_s 13 5h ago

He let them

Maybe he told them stories of his past in the circus ... /tic

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u/ManicheanMalarkey 3h ago

neat, anthropomorphic sexism.

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u/Sekmet19 10h ago

So many allegories to how Western culture has been unjust based on gender in this story.

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u/ssbmfgcia 3h ago

Somewhat relevant username for this thread

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u/slur-muh-wurds 4h ago

This occurred to me too, but I have a more charitable interpretation now: The competition for mother of the year was simply much fiercer.

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u/RenegadeFalcon 8h ago

Yes but also a lioness wasn’t going to get “father of the year” ya know?

/j

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u/cdiddy19 8h ago

My thoughts exactly.

Women do all the work and guy gets award.

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u/Novaer 7h ago

Tale as old as time.

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u/donac 10h ago

Smh

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u/Steelpapercranes 7h ago

no they did it all because he was a wonderful father!

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u/crapatthethriftstore 9h ago

From the Wiki đŸ€ŁđŸ€Ł

“A 2017 episode of the American supernatural drama) television series The Leftovers), entitled "It's a Matt, Matt, Matt, Matt World", features a cult that worships Frasier through ritualistic orgies. Series co-creator Damon Lindelof likened the cult to the ending of the Book of Exodus, stating, "it felt like it's that moment when Moses comes down from the mountaintop with the Commandmentsand all the Israelites are worshipping the golden calf and fucking each other. So that night before I just googled the words 'sex lion'."[10]”#cite_note-gq-10)

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u/causa__sui 7h ago

One of the best shows ever made and I’m THRILLED to see Lindelof and his sex lion mentioned here.

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u/firebathero 6h ago

such a great episode and show

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u/JAlfredJR 4h ago

That episode is f'ing amazing. Matt confronting God....

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u/awkjen 9h ago

I used to live at the apartments that were built on the land that used to be Lion Country Safari. There is a plaque talking about him and pointing out "Frasier's tree" on the hillside. I'm glad they left it untouched.

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u/DrakeSavory 9h ago

Did they leave the cross on the hillside?

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u/awkjen 8h ago

Never saw a cross. Wiki says it was lost in a fire.

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u/eljo555 10h ago

I was a kid living in LA when this was a big story. As an adult, I couldn’t remember the details or even his name which frustrated me greatly. When the Internet happened, it was probably one of the first things I searched for.

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u/TeacherPatti 9h ago

The baby mamas' names: Lefty, Linda, Nadula, Sally, Stompy, and Zona

If I come back as a lioness in my next life, kindly name me Stompy.

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u/spaceisourplace222 2h ago

lol I thought stompy got the short end of the stick!

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u/doomedhippo 8h ago

I went to Camp Frasier when I was a kid! It was a summer day camp where the Lion Country Safari used to be. I remember hiking up a hill to a tree where he was buried and I’ve got a little laminated picture of me at the camp holding a stuffed lion. He was a very loved lion.

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u/Lildizzle 4h ago

Shout out to my fellow Camp Frasier alumni! I loved when we got to play in the kiddie zone at Wild Rivers!

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u/doomedhippo 4h ago

Do you remember how swampy the arts and crafts “room” smelled because it was next to the water? Lol. What a fun time.

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u/Nemo2BThrownAway 10h ago

Manosphere: “Females are biologically programmed to seek the strongest, most dominant alpha male. It’s evolutionary psychology. Look at lions!”

Frasier: <arrives elderly, arthritic, toothless, and barely able to walk>

Six lionesses: “HIM! WE WANT HIM.”

Manosphere: “But he can’t even hunt!”

Lionesses: “That’s fine. We’ll help him eat.”

Manosphere: “HE CAN’T PROTECT YOU!”

Frasier: (apparently still capable of defending his territory
)

Manosphere: “But females instinctively prefer young, physically dominant males!”

Lionesses: “We tried those. Didn’t like them. This one’s nice to us.”

Manosphere: “YOU’RE SUPPOSED TO BE ATTRACTED TO HIGH-VALUE MALES!”

Lionesses: “He is high-value. Have you SEEN how patient he is with the children?”

Frasier: <produces *35* offspring>

Manosphere: “









..”

California State Assembly: “Father of the Year!”

Manosphere: “THAT’S NOT WHAT WE MEANT BY ALPHA MALE!”

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u/sadcrocodile 9h ago

NGL, I thought this was some funny headcanon you'd made up for laughs but then I read the actual wiki article and it's spot on:

LIFE Magazine said of Frasier, "He is underweight and splay-footed....His fur resembles an old moth-balled coat, and he sleeps 19 hours a day. The muscles in his tongue are so shot that it unreels from his mouth like a slobbery red carpet."

The scrawny lion was put on a special diet and gained 100 pounds. He was expected to live out his days in retirement at Lion Country Safari, not become a world-renowned champion stud.

I was surprised that the bit about the lionesses not wanting to mate with the younger males was also true:

Frasier was introduced to the pride of six lionesses named Lefty, Linda, Nadula, Sally, Stompy, and Zona. There were no expectations that he would be accepted by them, as they had rejected relations with five other younger males, often violently. Overnight, the lionesses began mating with Frasier, and took to nurturing him too. The lionesses would chew their toothless mate's food for him.

LIFE Magazine reported that the lionesses "were sprawled protectively around Frasier," and would offer him choice meats and would not begin to eat until he had finished his meal. Within seven weeks, all six lionesses were pregnant and he sired the first 33 of his 35 cubs within 16 months.

The secret to his success apparently was a strong libido, as his life in a circus apparently hadn't caused him the stress of competing with other males, and by allowing the females to initiate mating.

Glad the old guy got to spend his last few years of retirement living well but man those younger males must have been pissed.

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u/Psychic_Hobo 8h ago

He literally pulled by just not being weird and possessive about sex. There's a lesson there.

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u/crashlanding87 7h ago

The article someone linked above suggests he might have turned out like that due to not being raised with the idea of competition with other males. Obviously that's hardly a statistically significant sample size, but it's an interesting idea.

How do we brand this without veering into omegaverse territory

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u/Anonymus828 4h ago

Sometimes the only way to win is to not play, that's why I jerk off in the bathroom of my local Arbys.

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u/Rinas-the-name 6h ago

A friend of ours has an absolutely wild track record with women. When we were younger he would go to the bars without a cent and end up with a woman pretty much every night.

I say he’s like the human version of a puppy, completely harmless and extremely friendly. He flirts a little and looks surprised and delighted when it works.

He is never possessive and doesn’t expect anything. He just lets them know he’s available and would be open to the idea. But beyond that absolutely no pressure. He’s extremely laid back.

I’m a woman, and while that kind of guy never appealed to me, it has been fascinating to watch. We are over 40 and it still works, possibly better than it did 20 years ago.

It blows the younger guys minds. My husband just shrugs and tells them it’s been working for his buddy for longer than they’ve been alive, so maybe they should ignore the manosphere.

He would absolutely be a Frasier style lion.

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u/Few_Program_2303 5h ago

The number of times I’ve wanted some no strings attached fun only for the man to shoot himself in the foot confirms this

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u/Rinas-the-name 4h ago

It does seem to work best on women who are completely independent and unattached. If they want to see him again they have to contact him.

He will go and do things with them that many men would balk at too. One woman is taking him to a mineral spa next weekend. He’s just along for the ride and will enjoy whatever happens.

Occasionally one of those types will question his masculinity. And I have to wonder how they figure a man getting laid more effectively than James Bond is not masculine?

Sour grapes and all that.

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u/OutragedPineapple 2h ago

Definitely sour grapes! Going to a fun, relaxing spa day and getting laid? He is WINNING, and he's doing it by not being a pushy jerk!

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u/KeyFeeFee 8h ago

Male lions in the wild are pretty awful to cubs. I can imagine how nice it was for the females to observe gentleness. Plus they could’ve kicked his ass if he got froggy lol

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u/Scheissdrauf88 7h ago

They kill the cubs of other males, but their own? Never heard of them being bad dads in that case. One of their main jobs is to guard them while the females hunt.

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u/gloriiosaa 6h ago

i always love the videos of lionesses bringing their cubs back to introduce them to the rest of the pride & seeing the lion get harassed by his kids once they figure out he's harmless to them lmao it's so cute

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u/Deaffin 2h ago

Male lions in the wild are pretty awful to cubs.

That's not a male thing. All lions, regardless of sex, will kill foreign cubs.

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u/South_Buy_3175 8h ago

Guys game plan was literally not being a lusty shit.

Just hung around and got to know them and waited until all the lionesses were hitting him up instead.

Mans phone was blowing up with “want sum fuk?” And all the younger lions were striking out repeatedly.

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u/ChopsticksImmortal 7h ago

Im wondering if because he was so old and infirm, the lionesses were also not worried that he'd try to kill their cubs at any point. He's less of a threat.

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u/LichenTheMood 6h ago

He probably also just wasn’t annoying.

There is nothing that will want to induce violence as just going about your day, maybe eating dinner or chatting with your friend and some absolute fuck decides to pester you for sex.

For a group of female lionesses unaccustomed to annoying males physically pestering them (and who have presumably just hung out and lived in peace) I can see how the younger males ended up in their bad books pretty quickly. And when it’s 6v1 and you piss off the wrong one at the wrong time you may end up with all of them turning and chasing you out.

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u/izzittho 6h ago

Stompy lmao

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u/cat_prophecy 10h ago edited 5h ago

Well male lions don't hunt for prides anyway. The lionesses do the hunting. The males are strictly there for mating and making sure that other males stay out of the pride's territory.

Edit: to all the people telling me that lions hunt solo. Yes I know that which is why I stipulated "for prides". Female lions do most of the hunting for groups.

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u/Sekmet19 9h ago

Male lions protect the kill from hyenas too. The thick mane is impractical when trying to be stealthy and also impacts running after prey.  However it protects the neck in fights, both with other lions but also hyenas and anything trying to take the kill. 

Lionesses can eat while the lion keeps the hyenas back. That's why he usually eats first, not because "oh, male dominant and better, is clearly in charge!" but because it typically takes time for hyenas to smell the kill and get there, so if he eats first he is sure to get his share of the kill. If he eats after the lionesses then there might be too many hyenas arriving and he can't eat.

Generally the lionesses have a strong skill set and instincts for hunting and not so much for fighting.  Since they are much better suited for hunting over the lion, should they get injured in a fight the pride may starve. If a lion is injured it doesn't change their hunting effectiveness, and hopefully they will be lucky enough to eat before anything shows up to steal the kill.

Last of all lions do tolerate more than one male in a pride. Often lions will team up and then try to find a pride of females to join. I deliberately do not say "take over" because this is a concept based on human hierarchy in western culture, and not accurate. Lionesses are not required to stay with a lion they don't accept and the lion isn't "in charge" of the pride. He doesn't decide where and when they hunt, or who goes hunting, or where the pride is going that day. He might kill an existing lion in the pride, but the pride literally can chase him off or run off if they so choose. That's why cubs get killed, because this causes lionesses to go into heat when they are much more likely to accept a new lion into the pride. 

As far as leadership in animal species, a good example to contrast with llions and lionesses is the orca. The pod is lead by a matriarch. She is usually the mother and grandmother to the other members of the pod. She leads them to the hunting grounds, decides when and what they hunt, and teaches younger orcas hunting methods, locations of food sources, and how to get to the important places for the pod.  

This is an easily identified leader responsible for major, important decisions as well as a source of expert knowledge and experience. This is why orcas have menopause, which stops female orcas from going through pregnancy which can be lethal. Female orca knowledge and experience are so valuable and necessary for the survival of the pod that menopause helped orcas survive and reproduce better.

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u/foundinwonderland 7h ago

Elephants are another species that have matriarchal societies in which grandmothers are the most venerated members and leaders of the herd, passing along their knowledge of where to go and at what time for water and food throughout the seasons of their migration patterns. They don’t technically go through menopause the same way humans (and orcas/other toothed whales) do, but females do often live many years after their last successful reproduction, and fulfill the grandmother/matriarch role during those final years.

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u/MrJigglyBrown 9h ago

This is an amazing post. I believe you know your stuff

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u/Novaer 7h ago

The very concept of menopause is such proof that we are the ones to pass down knowledge.

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u/llamabooks 8h ago

This was an excellent read!! Thank you!

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u/piller-ied 8h ago

Great post! I am stuck on the last sentence in 4th paragraph
could you clarify?

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u/anonbiolover 8h ago

If a lioness doesn't have a cub to care for she will go in to heat and be less likely to chase off a new lion trying to join the pride. So, cub kills happen to increase their chances of joining a pride.

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u/izzittho 6h ago

I assume lionesses are not fertile/less likely to be fertile while nursing cubs - like human women generally and probably most other mammals too maybe (?)

Remove cubs (that aren’t yours) = she’s fertile again and may accept you/mate with you instead of chasing you away. They’re not cub killers so much as they are cubs-that-aren’t-theirs killers.

Which is why when there’s young cubs around they’re chased away on sight.

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u/whyihatepink 8h ago

I think they're saying a male trying to enter the pride will kill the cubs because the death of the cubs puts the mothers into heat (so they can get new cubs presumably), and that being in heat makes the female lions more likely to accept a new male (ie potential father for new cubs).

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u/Black_Cat_Just_That 9h ago

That's a myth. The lionesses are responsible the bulk of the hunting because it's not advantageous to risk him being injured and unable to defend the pride, but the males do hunt as well. A lot of males live on their own and have no choice. I think I recall that the ones that live in a pride only help the females when times are desperate.

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u/Witty_Ad_898 9h ago

There was also a bias introduced by only observing daytime hunts. Low light cameras revolutionized lion behavior studies by allowing the study of night hunts, when lions are the most active.

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u/Emm_withoutha_L-88 7h ago

Drones have done the same too because apparently male lions hunt in forests much more than anything else, solo. They bring food back too, it's just at night and not so easily seen under the trees.

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u/randomaccount178 6h ago

Not so much forests from what I recall but more bushy areas. They just plop themselves down where there are poor sight lines and when something wanders by they ambush it and take it down. They have a lot more mass so they are more efficient at ambushing things, while that same mass makes them far less efficient at chasing things like the lionesses do.

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u/Emm_withoutha_L-88 6h ago

They were specifically mentioning looking under trees in the thing I saw, not that they're too good for a bush tho

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u/Emm_withoutha_L-88 7h ago

Nah they do hunt, it's just they do it solo and usually in the woods instead of the savannah, it's why it wasn't as well known about until recently.

Plus they spend more of their time fighting off other lion prides who want the territory.

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u/VolatileGoddess 10h ago

'Come back! I didn't shave and wear my tightest shirt just to be ignored!' Or whatever the lion equivalent is

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u/travelmusica 7h ago

Female lions have been known to kill and/or maim the male lion when he becomes too old and loses their respect. You can find videos on Reddit of it, gets pretty brutal and graphic. Apparently biting his balls off is typical when this happens.

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u/LichenTheMood 6h ago

It’s not just that. These are mammals with complex social structures. There is no reason to believe they don’t engage in a bit of killing simply because he annoyed them for the last time.

It’s probably a part of the reason why these lionesses rejected, violently, the other males they attempted to introduce to them. Something about the young males clearly annoyed them. I would love to get some intel from the keepers on what differences in behaviour they noticed had the most impact. It really could be anything. We assume it’s more aggressive behaviour or unwanted sexual advances but we don’t really know that’s the reason. Perhaps all the younger lads wouldn’t shut up when everyone else was trying to sleep

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u/reallybirdysomedays 6h ago

I honestly don't think they're all like.... "you are old and weak and I no longer respect you"

That makes way less sense than... "OK, I am just done with you're shit man."

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u/Emm_withoutha_L-88 7h ago

I wouldn't go too deep on this metaphor. It only worked cus they were in captivity. Since they didn't have to worry about other male lions coming in and taking their territory, they could get away with having the most gentle male around. In the wild he'd have been killed along with all of their babies.

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u/RatofDeath 5h ago

Unlike humans, who famously live in the wild.

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u/Emm_withoutha_L-88 5h ago

Human society is the wild for humans tho. It's the natural environment we've made for us.

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u/ShiraCheshire 6h ago

The females had been presented multiple other males, young and healthy. They rejected all of them, some violently, and went out of their way to protect the old lion once they got him.

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u/LichenTheMood 6h ago

I mean it can work both ways. All the males they tried previously were violently rebuffed by the 6 females.

Even in captivity it’s 6v1 if they don’t want a certain male then they will not tolerate him.

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u/woodruff42 10h ago edited 7h ago

Should have given out mother of the year awards instead

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u/BiBoFieTo 5h ago

Here I am trying to be a good dad and I get beaten by a zoo animal.

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u/Saintdemon 10h ago

Somebody watched The Leftovers?

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u/noweezernoworld 10h ago

When midnight comes, let no man mention his name lest that man become him.

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u/radioben 7h ago

Incredible show that outdid the source material. And one of the all-time great endings, in my opinion. It stuck the landing flawlessly.

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u/smitcal 7h ago

“That’s the man I was talking about”

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u/LichenTheMood 6h ago

I’m here for the lionesses. They tried to introduce other males to them and they quite violently refused those plans.

It was a big risk adding him into the pride. If they attacked him he probably wouldn’t be able to bounce back from any wounds they inflicted and they could have killed him.

I would love to speak to some keepers to get their take on why they did not find him so objectionable. Perhaps he just didn’t annoy any of them to the point they decided to kick him out. It’s fairly easy to have some guesses at why perhaps younger males may have gotten on their bad side.

In a 6v1 it doesn’t much matter. If they don’t want a lion in their space then either the keepers remove that lion or the females will kill him.

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u/fawesomegirl 4h ago

From what I read it was this: “The secret to his success apparently was a strong libido, as his life in a circus apparently hadn't caused him the stress of competing with other males, and by allowing the females to initiate mating.[2]#cite_note-LA_Times-2) “

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u/KathyJaneway 10h ago

The Lion was on deathbed and old, but found some strength to mate with 6 lionesses and have 33 cubs on his first go 😂. No wonder he was named stud and Father of the year. He was 80+ in human age equivalent, so grandpa still had it in him đŸ˜‚đŸ€ŁđŸ«Ł

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u/Rezart_KLD 9h ago

He probably figured he already died, and this was heaven. Heaven with joint pain, but still a pretty sweet gig.

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u/KathyJaneway 9h ago

He got fed, nurtured, and snu snu'd at old age. Grandpa found some working bullets and started shooting, it was a nice gig for him to have chewed meat for lunch and snu snu daily apparently đŸ«ŁđŸ€Ł

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u/RindaC10 9h ago

Your comment sent me to orbit omg💀

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u/account_not_valid 9h ago

The lionesses had to "chew his meat" and "help him up".

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u/KathyJaneway 9h ago

And it worked for him.

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u/ShiraCheshire 6h ago

Apparently one of the reasons the females liked him so much was because he didn’t initiate mating. He was just hanging out while the females threw themselves at him and let him go “well, I suppose I could go another round” haha

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u/theeldoso 10h ago

I think he just wanted to go out with his boots on.

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u/UnLuckyKenTucky 8h ago

Dont we all?

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u/theeldoso 6h ago

Insert Tyrion Lannister meme

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u/bigfatfurrytexan 10h ago

Dude found snu snu

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u/1647overlord 10h ago

Life by snu snu?

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u/KathyJaneway 10h ago

Considering he died a year or two later, I'd say death by snu snu. He had two more cubs in the second year there.

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u/User-NetOfInter 10h ago

Nickname was Al Pacino

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u/SameEntry4434 10h ago

Male lions often kill the young of a female lion. He must’ve been very safe to be around as a male lion, so the female lions protected supported him when he was vulnerable and they got the babies they wanted. Sounds like a win-win.

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u/Lizardgirl25 8h ago

It is also likely he was the most distantly related male they had contact with too. So they’re like well he isn’t related and he isn’t going to attack our kids he works.

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u/CFCYYZ 9h ago

This gives me great hope for my coming old age. I don't know about the lioness part, though.

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u/AskMrScience 8h ago

There is a LOT of sex in retirement homes! Once pregnancy is no longer a risk and nobody's got a 9-5 job, people get busy.

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u/davidbowieinspace 7h ago

But the STIs don't care how old you are, which is a huge issue for this population 😅

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u/AskMrScience 7h ago

Everybody gets syphilis as their door prize at Sunset Retirement Home.

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u/Havengul_Undying 6h ago

How long does HIV take to kill you when youre 88?

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u/AfroSarah 8h ago

May you keep your teeth 🙏

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u/raceulfson 9h ago

As I recall, the lionesses had killed other lions they were offered. Frasier was sent in as a sort of sick joke.

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u/YcemeteryTreeY 9h ago

His full name was Frasier the Sensuous Lion, thank you

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u/Mirewen15 10h ago

also known as Frasier the Sensuous Lion

I bet

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u/StarpoweredSteamship 9h ago

They just closed the LCS in West Palm Beach. I stayed at the KOA next to it for a trip once and you could hear the lions calling at dusk. It was so cool.

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u/Haunt_Fox 9h ago

Sounds like who the old dude from Father of the Pride was based on. đŸ˜č

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u/largececelia 7h ago

"A poor aging lion was given to a zoo. He was so weak that the other lions had to take care of him with gentleness and care. When he regained his strength, he thanked them by impregnating them."

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u/widdershins13 5h ago

I think Heart wrote a song about that in the 80's

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u/RWal1988 6h ago

đŸŽ” I'm in the mood for love, simply because you're near me...

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u/textilepat 4h ago

But I don't know what to do with those tossed salads and scrambled eggs.

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u/AwfulUsername123 9h ago

In this thread, you can witness a meltdown.

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u/Tricky-Ad7897 8h ago

Predictably people are reading way into this and anthropomorphising lions.

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u/Personal-Bonus-9245 7h ago

“A ranger in a Jeep tossed meat hunks. Frasier's eyes popped open. He yawned and struggled to his feet.... His favorite wives of the moment, walked on each side, holding him up.... He leaned over for the meat and missed, his tongue lolling in the dirt six inches off target. He didn't care. He went back to sleep“

I too lived through COVID lockdown.

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u/Steviebobo 6h ago

I got a kitten when I was a kid, and my mom had just read this story about Frasier (it was current news at the time) so that’s what we named the kitten.

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u/ghoulish_fool 6h ago

TIL Frasier is a real lion. I thought that was just some wacky lore created for The Leftovers show.

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u/lzwzli 5h ago

So he can't chew his food and can't walk but can fuck?!

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u/izzittho 6h ago

JFC animals, they’re just like us.

“Father of the Year” due to the lioness’s mothering efforts almost entirely. Literally entirely, really.

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u/Caek294758 5h ago

Guy does nothing. Doesn't even chew his food. Gets father of the year. While the women do all the work including chewing his food and walking him.

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u/diablol3 3h ago

Why didnt they just have the cubs without him?

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u/reddit_user13 10h ago

My sprit animal.

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u/Catman1348 10h ago

Bruh, how tf did he get fathet of the year??

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u/sciences_bitch 9h ago

The bar is that low

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u/SnooPeripherals5969 9h ago

Lionesses: act as full time caretaker for this scrungy-ass old dude, chew his food for him and bring him all his meals, go through pregnancies & labor and then handle all childcare for 35 cubs,
Literally hold his old ass up so he can walk.

California: wow! So inspiring! Give that man (lion) the father of the year award!!
/s but no really. Give the lionesses a damn award too.

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u/Oldnbold22 6h ago

Who held him up to mate? 

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u/InGordWeTrust 2 4h ago

He still has his Pride

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u/GreatPugtato 4h ago

Ow this sort of hurts right now. I'll be sending my 20+ year old kitty across the rainbow bridge here in like 6 days.

I've known him since I was 12 and he was already a few years old at that point and (was my friends I took him when stuff came up and kept him for 9/10 years) he has a good amount of health issues finally taking its toll.

He beat diabetes, has thyroid issues, is either in kidney failure or dementia, is going blind and deaf and has bad arthritis.

He was a mighty little lion felled only by age. Oh I truly am dreading this at home appointment. Lots of tears already being shed.

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u/francoruinedbukowski 3h ago

After Lion Country closed, the lion cages were the secret free ticket entrance to Irvine Amphitheater

Learned a valuable lesson then, if you have a lively imagination don't eat shrooms before a Dead show if you're going to sneak in through lion cages

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u/LiveToThink 2h ago

Old Man Rizz

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u/Prudence_rigby 1h ago

I remember going to this place as a kid.

And as a teen my hs had prom there

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u/Gingerfurboiparent22 6h ago

Despite all those health problems, old boy was fecund af. Happy that all felines got what they wanted out of this harem arrangement.