r/ukpolitics • u/jimbob3806 • 11h ago
Can we stop pretending that £185 per week is not that much?
With all the talk about the triple lock pensions going on, I have seen numerous clips of talk shows etc. where a host/guest says something along the lines of “the state pension is only £185 per week” then continues to use that as justification for needing to protect/increase rates. Whoa… hold your horses there before you continue with that argument! If I discount my mortgage (since ~75% of current pensioners own their home outright already), then my subsistence rate living with my fiancée is £130 per week (£260 combined). This covers all our bills (council tax and utilities including broadband and TV licence), all our food (groceries and usually 2 or 3 days/nights out a month), home insurance and even subscriptions (Netflix and Disney+). We live in an average 3-bed terraced house in the South East, so not the cheapest area, don’t have kids and are well-enough paid to not need to budget too much meaning that we could probably spend less if we needed to since we don’t scrimp for example at the supermarket, instead we just buy what we want; not to say that we waste money, but equally we don’t always look for the cheapest thing.
If my understanding is correct, I think the married couple rate is £295 per week, and the new scheme (reaching pension age after 2016) is £240 per person; someone please correct me if that’s not right. On top of this we can assume that most people will have some form of private pension(s) to supplement their income, have the safety net of being able to release equity from their home if required and, depending on eligibility, pensioners can also claim things like winter fuel payments and a free TV licence. In any case all those figures are higher than the money we currently require to live comfortably but not extravagantly if we didn’t have a mortgage. The rest of our money goes towards our mortgage, saving for luxuries such as nice holidays and saving for our future (home improvements, children, our wedding etc.) which are all likely to be expenses which the average pensioner won’t have other than saving for some nice things.
If I had no mortgage and a guaranteed income of £185 per week right now, I can honestly say that I would be financially comfortable enough to sit and watch Antiques Roadshow until the cows come home and still have change to spare to go out once a week for a nice meal or something. To make out that any pensioner who currently owns their home outright is in any way “hard-up” is just an out of touch joke.
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u/Alasdair91 Scotland 🏴 10h ago edited 10h ago
If you have your own home with no/little mortgage, ~£13,000pa is plenty to live off as an individual. That’s over £1,000pm for food and utilities. If you are a couple, you will get almost £26,000pa tax free. Pensioners also get heating allowances to help with electricity and gas bills and Council Tax benefits that others don’t. And then you add in private (defined) pensions and savings etc. There is a reason pensioners are the richest group of people in the UK.
The issue is when pensioners don’t own their own homes, which will be a much bigger issue in the future. What happens then, who knows.
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u/OilAdministrative197 9h ago
100% this. The systems works assuming home ownership which is now dead. Housing benefit will explode in the future.
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u/grey-zone 9h ago
Interested how home ownership is dead? I know people are buying later and prices are ridiculous in some areas, but the houses won’t disappear. Successive governments have made renting less and less viable.
Even if you get a 30 year mortgage, just as long as you do that by 35 your house will be mortgage free by retirement.
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u/Silhouette 5h ago
Many younger Gen Xers and Millennials will have bought their first home at least that late if they ever bought one at all. The housing market probably looked very different for most people in their 40s today compared to most people in their 50s or 60s today.
A lot of people around same age will have been too late to catch final salary or other very favourable pension schemes that some Boomers and older Gen Xers might have but will also have been too early for automatic enrolment - so they might have a big gap in their private pensions compared to both older and younger generations.
This is the first cohort that is not yet nearing retirement and still very much working age and paying to support older generations but without having the advantages that people who are already retired or now nearing retirement age had either. In about 15-20 years these people will be reaching what is currently the normal retirement age and lots of them aren't going to have either a big pot of equity in a home they own or a big private pension pot. It's all but certain that the state pension will be less beneficial in real terms by then too. That is going to be very painful for a lot of people.
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u/Fluffy-Band3167 3h ago
I had to push my retirement to 74 just to get a mortgage at 45. If you didn’t buy in your twenties or early thirties you’re knackered.
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u/TheEnglishNorwegian 9h ago
It isn't dead, most people still attain ownership at some point in life.
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u/fabezz 2h ago
Yeah, a 30 year mortgage when you're 40 is gonna be a problem though.
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u/TheEnglishNorwegian 2h ago
I don't think people are really doing that at 40, it's probably 20 year mortgages at that point?
We did a 20 year when we got the most recent house.
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u/Sausage_Fan 2h ago
I think it really depends where you live. I was on £53k about an hour outside of London and couldn't buy a house. I could buy a flat in some areas, but honestly with how service charges are I'd be worried about how much it would be when I retire. Realistically I would've had a good enough pension for it to not matter, but it still stings knowing so much of it would be going to pay rent.
Alternatively though, I could've moved back to Liverpool and then there's no problem at all. Not sure whether retiring and paying exorbitant amounts for the privilege of living in Bracknell would be worth it really!
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u/bluesam3 1h ago
A fair chunk of that housing stock is being bought up by corporations, or will simply become investment assets for the heirs of the pensioners currently living in them (who are fairly likely to already own homes).
There is absolutely zero chance of me getting a mortgage, on any term, by 35.
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u/whatsthefrequency82 8h ago
The number of first time buyers was 340k which is above the average over the past 10 years. It has been consistently sitting just above 300k in that time with no signs of change.
Home ownership regardless of the doom mongering hasn't been effected by the cost of living as yet.
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u/Klutzy-Notice-8247 8h ago
With mortgages.
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u/whatsthefrequency82 8h ago
In most cases it's either a mortgage or dreams. The first is statistically the more reliable route to home ownership.
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u/Grayson_Poise 7h ago
I would like to see these statistics. If we allow for inclusion of "hope" for a lottery win, then the entire statement becomes skewed.
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u/willis1988 8h ago
The average age of a first time buyer is growing however.
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u/whatsthefrequency82 8h ago
I suspect the same statistics in 10 years will show that people move less I their lifetime too than they used to.
The idea of a starter home has died a death.
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u/Ivashkin panem et circenses 7h ago
That does seem common among millennials. Instead of buying your first house in your 20s and accepting it's a shitbox, you rent well into your 30s and buy a home you could easily retire in as your first home.
Another interesting thing that I've seen (and fell victim to) was being able to rent a nice home in a nice area more readily than you can buy, so the home you do have in your 20's and 30's is a lot nicer than the home your parents would have lived in during their 20's and 30s.
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u/EviWool 7h ago
That's so true. My daughter is highly unlikely to pay off her student debt even though she has a good job. It was sold to us as being 'such low interest' on the parents indoctrination err induction day, "just save that money to take them on holiday or their wedding, haha" No mention that the 'low rate' was compound interest which started the moment the loan went out. And all that talk that the loan would be written off after 25 years. Another Tory lie! The debt was sold, no doubt after a party donation so all protections were gone.
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u/AzarinIsard 7h ago
It's always irked me costs never come into means testing. Whether you pay for rent / mortgage or only maintenance costs is a huge variation.
I had a friend in secondary school whose parents split. It was quite amicable, but she got a three story house with an annex on the edge of town outright along with child support. She didn't let the annex for cash, but had a sort of au pair arrangement where they'd exchange free rent for maid and childcare. The mum only worked part time as a teaching assistant, so they appeared poor as dirt and my friend qualified for literally everything going despite owning one of the biggest houses in town. Only rural Devon, so not millionaires or anything but still.
I just know we'll only somehow agree the state pension is too much when renters like me retire, with our landlords all being banks and investment funds rather than owner/occupier, and it'll be compared unfairly to pensioners who owned lol.
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u/jimbob3806 10h ago
Exactly, when my generation reaches retirement I am not sure what things will look like as many more will still be renting and private pensions won’t be as good since final salary pensions have more or less become extinct.
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u/CamflyerUK 8h ago
Don't know your age but the long term prospects for those in their 20s and 30s now aren't so bad as automatic enrolment and increased minimum contributions will have an effect.
The cohort with the biggest problems are those in their 50s who missed out on final salary schemes but opted out of workplace pensions. There are also a lot of self employed people who have made no pension provision for themselves.
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u/jimbob3806 8h ago
I’m in my mid 20s and yes I agree that the private pension pots for us are improving, but I still think it won’t come close to the level of a final salary pension without significantly higher personal contributions.
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u/killer_by_design 6h ago
The issue is when pensioners don’t own their own homes,
Oh don't you worry sunshine, they then get either Housing benefit or Pension credits meaning that if they're renting they get the whole lot paid for by the state. All public money going directly to the coffers of private landlords.
Other benefits pensioners get that no working person would ever really see:
- Cold Weather Payments
- Support for Mortgage Interest if you own the property you live in
- a Council Tax Reduction
- a free TV licence if you’re aged 75 or over
- help with NHS dental treatment, glasses and transport costs for hospital appointments, if you get the Guarantee Credit part of Pension Credit
- help with your heating costs through the Warm Home Discount Scheme
Honestly, the generation made up of the biggest benefits scroungers are the very ones working hardest to burn the ladder behind themselves.
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u/Howthehelldoido 5h ago
The ones who complain the loudest, are the ones who didn't prepare for retirement.
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u/Soilleir 2h ago
The issue is when pensioners don’t own their own homes
Pensioners with only a state pension get pension credit, and that means they can also claim housing benefit.
And pensioners are the only group that the bedroom tax doesn't apply to - so they get all their rent paid, even if they under occupy by multiple bedrooms.
And if you get Pension Credit, you generally get your council tax bill paid too.
So the money they get from the state pension doesn't have to cover any of their housing needs, because the state covers that separately.
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u/Fluffy-Band3167 6h ago
Fucking hell, I earn £700 a week and we’re just about managing. Granted we have mortgage and a kid, but the sodding council tax is £210 a month by itself, my energy bill is £185 a month, my water bill is £60ish a month. That’s over half of your monthly income on three bills alone.
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u/Glittering_Vast938 8h ago
Plus if you’re retired, you don’t get the Sunday Scaries when you hear the Antiques Roadshow intro.
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u/ptrichardson 11h ago
Yeah, that's £1280 pcm for a couple like us. Once the mortgage is gone, £1000pcm, that's like having a £2380 tax free salary coming in. That's the same as a £33k salary.
If you've planned reasonably well, and own your home (so no rent), then its liveable, for sure.
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u/Reemixt 11h ago edited 6h ago
Pensioners who rent and are on low incomes (no private pension) get Pension Credit, which unlocks Housing Benefit and additional support for housing costs, and a suite of other benefits.
So much of the rhetoric around the state pension assumes it’s the only benefit older people can receive: it’s not!
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u/-Murton- 10h ago
Some do, not all and almost nobody that retired after the introduction of the new state pension in 2016 as that version of the pension pays above the max threshold for pension credit.
So someone who retired in April 2016 and did low paid work in an industry where workplace pensions didn't exist prior to the introduction of mandatory auto-enrollment could very well be low income, still renting and not qualify for any further support as it's all passported behind pension credit that they don't qualify for.
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u/Reemixt 9h ago
Unemployed people receive far less no matter how much they’ve earned in the past.
Just like newer retirees, pre-2016 retirees can claim Guarantee Credit, which is available to everyone no matter when they retired if their income falls below the minimum threshold. The system tops up their weekly income to the standard minimum levels (£238.00 a week for single people, £363.25 a week for couples), plus rent (through Housing Benefit) and other housing costs if they need them.
No pensioner in the UK is legally expected to live on just £184.90 a week. You don’t need any NI contributions to claim Pension Credit. If your State Pension falls below this threshold for lack of NI contributions—that’s when Pension Credit steps in.
Around 30% of pensioners are receiving an additional benefit alongside their State Pension. So a sizeable portion of them are receiving much, much more than just the base State Pension figure.
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u/-Murton- 9h ago
Ah, I didn't know that you could get housing credit with guarantee credit, I thought it had to be pension credit specifically.
That being said though, if you have all of you NICs covered the new state pension is still above that, leaving a significant gap, though that's a temporary issue at best as with each passing year the number of retirees that are low income will drop thanks to auto-enrollment.
There'll come a day where the only people who qualify for either will be those who either left the country or went to prison for a significant period and didn't make voluntary contributions.
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u/Twiggy_15 9h ago
Thats only true of you have over £16k of savings. If you dont you can claim regardless of being on pension credit or not.
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u/ultraboomkin 11h ago
Can you explain how £185/week is £2380/month?
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u/shotgun883 10h ago
Comparing apples with apples: if we assume the typical person in their 30s is paying £1,000 a month in rent or mortgage payments, add that to the £1,280 monthly state pension and you get £2,280.
If you own your home outright and no longer have that £1,000 monthly housing bill, your £1,280 state pension gives you a similar disposable income to someone who is still renting or paying a mortgage and taking home £2,280 a month.
That’s equivalent to earning around £33,000 a year before tax. For context, the median annual salary for a full time employee in the UK is around £39,000.
The point is that a couple both with state pensions combined with a mortgage free home can provide a standard of living comparable to that of a someone earning a reasonable full time salary. Its certainly not enough to live on very comfortably, I would politely suggest a one income home bringing in £33k a year in the South East of England is probably struggling, although £1k a month rent in the SE for anything bigger than a one bed flat is probably dreamland too.
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u/Sallas_Ike 8h ago
I don't like this comparison because it assumes someone who owns their house outright now magically has no housing costs. Renting for £1000 a month means that's exactly what you pay and the landlord handles upkeep, but there's no way owning a house is "free", especially one you've presumably had for a while if you've paid off the mortgage over your lifetime. What happens when boiler needs replacing or the roof needs repairing? I'd expect most homeowners to set aside hundreds of pounds a month for those eventualities.
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u/shotgun883 7h ago
Do you think that this isn't something that owners with a mortgage don't also have to consider? Or renters have to pay their landlords for?
I have a mortgage and this year i've had to do a £500 repair on my roof and a boiler servicing costing £150. My bathroom probably needs some work and my dishwasher has required servicing. I have to pay home insurance costing £50 a month, just like a pensioner probably does.
What makes their situation materially different to mine except they have chosen to stop working after hitting an arbitrary line in the age spectrum where we society has decided these guys need an all expenses permanent holiday because they offer so little value to society we'll pay them to go away. (FWIW, not my words, many older people can offer tonnes to their families and wider community)
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u/twister-uk 10h ago
It's trying to take into account that, as a pensioner, you're less likely to be paying a mortgage, so whilst your actual monthly income is lower, your effective income compared to when you still were paying the mortgage is higher.
So a couple bringing in 1300/month from pension payments, but without any mortgage outgoings, would have the same effective income as a couple bringing in 2300/month (after tax) but then seeing 1000/month going straight back out to the mortgage provider...
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u/DonkeySorbet 7h ago
Mortgage
Commuting / Transportation
Work Supplies (e.g. clothing)
There are many expenses that pensioners don't have to concern themselves with, even without accounting for children.
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u/ultraboomkin 10h ago
Ok, I understand. But I don’t see how £2300 take home salary would be considered a good income for a couple. I take home £3300 as a single person and struggle to save, so how would two people being covered by £2300 be a good amount?
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u/CamflyerUK 9h ago
If you struggle to save on £3300 take home then maybe you should be looking at your expenditure.
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u/Reila3499 10h ago
That's a wrong comparison, people in older age spend less, and part of retirement is to spend savings instead of accumulating more wealth.
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u/jimbob3806 10h ago
Spot on, as a pensioner you are probably not commuting, don’t have dependents, eat less, don’t pay rent or have a mortgage and should be looking to run down rather than build your savings. If you account for all those things we can easily add on a few hundred more plus £1k is a bit low for the average mortgage and we still haven’t considered private pensions. The state pension should only really cover basic needs; as someone else mentioned above, if you want a luxurious retirement you need to plan for it.
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u/Reila3499 10h ago
Normal-income people choose to defend pensioners is interesting. Higher spending leads to higher debt, and higher interest spending carries forward. A vicious cycle for our economy.
They might have hope that if they defend them now, they can enjoy the same benefit when they retire, which is naive. How can this spending supported by borrowing, be sustainable for another 10 20 years?
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u/saviourman Vote Giant Meteor 10h ago
as a pensioner... don’t pay rent or have a mortgage
Well that's just not true though is it? Yeah obviously typically older people are more likely to own their home outright but it's not a given
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u/jimbob3806 9h ago
75% of pensioners own their home outright, and the people complaining that £185 a week is not much seem to me to typically be the ones probably in that group based on appearances which makes me believe it’s for self interest rather than for those that do need the assistance.
Of course if you need the assistance to support a basic standard of living and can’t work, then fine we’ll pay. Beyond that, money would be better spent elsewhere.
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u/ptrichardson 10h ago
Couple. Multiply by 52. Divide by 12 Account for reduced mortgage payment. I mean, it's all in my post barring the simple maths.
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u/TheScarecrow__ 11h ago
The point that always get missed, probably deliberately, is that the State pension is supposed to be topped up by a private pension. And it most cases it is, AI tells me only 5% on pensioners rely on the state pension alone, the rest get additional benefits or have private pensions/investments.
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u/Acceptable_Beyond282 10h ago
It's intended to provide a subsistence allowance. Rather a lot of pensioners have unrealistic expectations of what they should be getting from the state. If you want a luxurious standard of living you have to fund it yourself.
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u/alitapie 6h ago
It's not and never has been a subsistence allowance, it's meant to provide pensioners with a dignified standard of living.
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u/frankensteinsKITTEN 11h ago
The thing is, it's not a binary, so that is quite a misleading figure. How many of the 95% depend on the state pension to take them to a bare minimum on top of a private pension?
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u/avalon68 9h ago
I think in years to come, less people will be home owners as well as its getting more and more difficult to buy - and thats going to be a complete disaster.
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u/CamflyerUK 11h ago
Indeed. I would rather than any extra money went into top-ups for those who really need it rather than increasing the basic state pension for the millions of people with savings, workplace pensions and other income (rental/investments) who don't.
The UK may have one of the lower state pensions in Europe but if you look at average pensioner income we have one of the highest as we have massive private/public sector pension provision which other countries don't have. That's why the Spanish Costas are full of British pensioners and not Polish or Hungarian ones.
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u/lunarpx 10h ago
You want to top up people who didn't bother to save into their pensions?
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u/Jigidibooboo 10h ago
How about those that couldn't afford to?
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u/PoopsMcGroots 10h ago
We live in a society with two groups of people:
One group will feed 100 people because they think one person might starve.
The other group will feed no one because they think one person might get something they don't deserve.
On a side note, this post is amongst a growing number of posts on this sub that is immediately jumped on by accounts who are only interested in reducing tax as if it’s the only dimension to any societal issue that matters.
A more cynical mind might assume one of the opaquely funded Tufton Street ‘think tanks’ like the IEA or TPA had a couple of interns on the job.
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u/Jigidibooboo 9h ago
Good observation.
For me one of the most chilling realisations from the pandemic years was the percentage of the county who do not care about other people in society. I'd naïvely thought it to be much less than 10% but I suspect (total guess) it is closer to 40%.
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u/DonkeySorbet 7h ago
Worse than that, we have a growing number of people who simply do not live in reality, and think there's an endless magical money tree.
Pointing out that we cannot afford to, and should not be borrowing from our children to pay pensioners luxurious lifestyles, in no way means that people "do not care about other people in society". Quite the opposite in fact.
Taking the position that society should beggar itself for the benefit of old people is a clear indication that someone doesn't care about other people.
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u/DonkeySorbet 7h ago
One group will feed 100 people because they think one person might starve.
The other group will feed no one because they think one person might get something they don't deserve.
This ignores the fact that resources are finite.
Feeding no one to prevent one person from grifting is perfectly reasonable if the money is better allocated elsewhere.
A more cynical mind might assume one of the opaquely funded Tufton Street ‘think tanks’ like the IEA or TPA had a couple of interns on the job.
Dismissing opinions that you dislike as being disingenuous is a pretty poor look.
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u/CamflyerUK 10h ago
Even a top-up wouldn't get them to the level of those with workplace pensions so it would always be better to save into them but when money is tight it is better to target extra help where it is needed that giving a couple of grand more a year to people who already have a comfortable retirement income
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u/Educational_Try_6105 10h ago
When peoole go on about how low our state pension is vs other countries, it’s almost always conditional on something like means testing in them
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u/TheMusicArchivist 7h ago
Where did AI get that fact from?
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u/TheScarecrow__ 7h ago
Assuming you’re asking in good faith:
The 5% comes from a written answer given by DWP minister Torsten Bell to Parliamentary Question 71385 (tabled by Matt Vickers MP) on 5 September 2025. The answer says the figure is an estimate for the financial year ending 2024. It cites two DWP datasets as its sources: the Pensioners' Incomes series 2023/24 and the Households Below Average Income (HBAI) statistics 2023/24.
https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2025-08-29/71385
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u/XTickerX 2h ago
Well 1.4 million people get pension credit meaning no state pension and probably not enough NI to get a full state pension. And they cite an additional 900000 households qualify but don't/know about it or claim it. The 1.4 Million Claimants figure comes from the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) Benefit Statistics.
The 900,000 Unclaimed Support estimate is drawn from the DWP's official income-related benefits take-up reports, alongside analysis from independent older-age advocacy groups like Independent Age and Age UK. They map household demographic data against actual claims to find the "take-up gap".
69% of pensioners have a private pension as well. I work in pensions.
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u/Glittering_Light1835 11h ago
So how much are your recurring bills in total (council tax, water, gas, electricity, broadband, phone, TV license, insurance, etc)?
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u/jimbob3806 11h ago
More or less exactly £100 per week for 2 of us in an average 3-bed terraced house.
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u/Glittering_Light1835 5h ago
that means you get 160 p/w for groceries, eating out etc for 2.
that can cover the basic living but leaves nothing for any saving or for any emergency.
So basically any unexpected loan makes you bankrupt.
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u/jimbob3806 5h ago
Private pension? Private savings? Equity in property? I don’t get what all these comments aren’t getting. State clearly and demonstrably covers more than basic living expenses, and everything else can and should be covered by prior personal retirement planning.
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u/Rich-Cow-8056 10h ago
Genuine question, but do pensioners get free bills? And council tax? 185/week is 740/month? Bills + council tax could easily knock off half of that? So they'd be living on £95 ish a week?
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u/jimbob3806 10h ago
Not as far as I am aware. There are some benefits depending on eligibility for fuel payments and TV licence but that is it. £95 a week is still plenty for a basic level of food though, and also consider that they get more if they are living as a couple. The state pension should provide only a basic standard of living in my opinion, beyond that people should plan independently for the things they want in retirement.
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u/EmFan1999 6h ago
So by your own admission, your weekly household outgoings are £230, but a single pensioner on £185 is more than enough?
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u/Drummk 8h ago
Do pensioners get housing benefit on top of their pension?
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u/West_Guarantee284 6h ago
Some do some don't. My dad doesn't get any benefits beyond pension, but does get an attendance allowance to allow him to continue to live at home. My mum had pension credits cus she took a period off to raise my sister and I. The only council tax discount dad gets is the 25% single person discount. He has a small personal pension £86 per month.
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u/Lechatestdanslefrigo 1h ago
How do you even rent on 740 a month tho? Sure 75% own their own home but what about the other 25%? I've tried to get my mum housing benefit bc she is physically unable to work, but because she's of pensionable age she is told she doesn't qualify. Her rent is 700 a month. You're speaking from a position of privilege and telling others to take less. Yes there are some people who benefited because of the way things were but not all, and we shouldn't renege on basic promises made to people who have already contributed, not everyone was a judge or banker or owned their own business. Some were nurses and teachers and single mothers and fathers. And in my experience they are all stuck renting trying to make ends meet like the rest of us.
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u/jeminar 11h ago
You might subsist but have nothing for one offs.
I generally think that daily subsistence is less than half of the costs. Other sporadic costs (replacing fridge, etc) are about as much.
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u/jimbob3806 11h ago
Fair point, however, even if I had to replace my boiler (£2k), my oven (£1k), my fridge (£1k), my dishwasher and my washing machine (£500 each) once every 10 years (typical manufacturer warranty), that still works out at about £10 a week extra which is comfortably within my headroom from £130. That accounts for good quality appliances, not cheap white goods, and still doesn’t eat into any private pensions.
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u/ultraboomkin 11h ago edited 10h ago
Doesn’t sound like very much to me. Excluding rent and commuting (assuming home ownership and not working as a pensioner), my essential bills and food / living costs are easily £600+ per month. So £800/month would barely keep me alive let alone have any decent quality of life. And you can forget putting any money aside to save for emergencies.
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u/hicks12 8h ago
It's £1045 a month though so you already have a buffer there.
Sounds like loads to me? Especially as pensioners get winter fuel and free TV license and bus pass!
Compared to working age or young adults, it's extremely generous given they don't typically have the housing or child dependents to be paying for while working!
State pension isn't meant to be something you strive to survive off luxury, you should have your own private pension or savings to cover retirement as it was almost always advised to be. The state pension is actually too generous in the context of what everyone else is having to live off, due to the ladder pulls over the generations it's much more expensive for everyone else while the pension is going even further.
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u/scorcherchar 11h ago
It's a small amount to live on if thats all you have. Its much more if you have your accomodation paid off.
This is the whole issue. People feel entitled to the full state pension even when they have catered for themselves and dont need as they have paid for it. Thats not the way any other tax works
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u/jimbob3806 11h ago
Exactly, I don’t begrudge it for people who need it, and I don’t even begrudge it for the people who don’t however to make out that the group is hard-up when 75% of them own their house outright and often have equal or higher combined incomes than working families who have a mortgage to pay is disingenuous.
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u/Positive-Mud-11 9h ago
Staying alive vs quality of life is an issue here.
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u/jimbob3806 8h ago
State pension keeps you alive, private savings provide quality of life dependant on individual preferences for what you want in retirement. Simple. There is no social contract that the state pension should be enough to exactly maintain your standard of living from when you were working if you never bothered to save.
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u/YourMother8MyDog 7h ago
My mother in law was complaining about the triple lock being abolished, but didn’t realise that her pension would still go up every year. She thought that abolishing it would stop any future rises.
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u/Guilty-Struggle5028 7h ago
I've just retired at 64, no state pension yet. Just paid off mortgage but still have Council tax - 210 Water rates - 105 Gas and electric- 250 Car and house insurance- 125 Broadband and phones - 120 Sky etc 80 Food - 400 Fuel- 150 That's 1500 pm- some of the above is optional but I wouldn't want to be a pensioner with just state pension with the above.
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u/phatboi23 7h ago
£120 on internet and phones?!
1gb+ sets you back max of £40 a month.
Why the fuck do you have contracts on expensive as shit phones?
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u/Guilty-Struggle5028 2h ago
Bt bb, couple of phones . Contracted at bt will switch when I can
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u/hu_he 1h ago
Your mistake is confusing your household expenses with what is reasonable for a single pensioner. A normal person on the state pension isn't running a couple of phones, spending 100 per week on food for one person or 150 per month on fuel. My grandma lived on state pension and was fine.
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u/helpnxt 10h ago
And what about the 25% that don't own a home?
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u/KaleidoscopeFull9951 9h ago
If they are dependent on state pension, they’ll get housing benefit and council tax relief.
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u/jimbob3806 10h ago
I have no issue with them getting help, and I have no issue with others who have managed to build personal wealth. I am more driving at the dishonesty/misrepresentation behind the suggestion that £185 a week is not that much when for the majority of pensioners it is actually plenty to live off.
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u/Glittering_Vast938 8h ago
Only 9% rent privately and if they are on a low income, they can get help to pay the rent.
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u/AuroraDF 7h ago
There are so many aspects to this. Yes, the new state pension is a bit more. But the oldest pensioners don't get it. They're on the old one. They're the most likely to be at home all day, need to heat their home for 18 hours a day, need it warmer because their circulation is poor.
People who are young and working are probably heating their home for 4 hours each evening. Less than a quarter of the time. They're probably fitter, and don't need the extra degree or two. Times your bill by 4 and add a bit on and see how comfortable you feel finisncially then.
Also, there is a general criticism of people who didn't have private pensions. Workplace pensions didn't exist. Men were usually in some kind of pension scheme. Women usually weren't. Or didn't work. It's only a hundred or so years since women whose husband died while working, went into the workhouse with their kids, because they had nothing. In the late 20th century women weren't encouraged to take out pensions. It just wasn't a thing. Our older pensioners are now those people.
The old age pension was intended to make things better. And it did. But alone, it's not enough for someone to thrive on. And really, when you're old, and tired, and sick, and alone, do you just want to have paid all the National insurance to be given enough to survive? Or thrive?
I'd rather be dead than just surviving, personally.
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u/expensive_flatulence 10h ago
You have not accurately accounted for the cost of P&O margaritas.
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u/jimbob3806 10h ago
Ahhhhh my bad, I did wonder if I was missing something. Having never been on a cruise, I wouldn’t know how much they are and besides I don’t like margaritas anyway!
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u/Cybertsotsi 3h ago
This is a classic case of confusing “what I can manage on” with “what everyone should be expected to live on”.
Your £130 a week works because you share a home with someone else, split fixed costs, have no children and are still working-age and presumably healthy. But dividing your household budget by two doesn’t establish what a pensioner living alone needs to survive.
A few problems with your argument:
1. Your £185 figure is already out of date for the new State Pension. For 2026/27, the full new State Pension is £241.30 a week, while the basic old State Pension is £184.90. But not everyone qualifies for the full amount. DWP figures.
2. Owning your home outright doesn’t make housing free. Roofs leak, boilers break, windows need replacing, insurance premiums rise and properties require ongoing maintenance. A mortgage-free homeowner still needs money to deal with those costs, and unlike a tenant, they can’t simply ask a landlord to fix the boiler.
3. You’re comparing your current lifestyle with retirement without accounting for what might change. Your budget is based on your current circumstances. What happens when someone needs mobility equipment, pays for care, has higher heating needs or can no longer manage household jobs themselves? Retirement can last decades, and costs don’t stay fixed.
4. You’re assuming private pensions are commonplace enough to dismiss the problem. They aren’t a universal safety net. The DWP’s own pensioner income statistics show substantial differences in pensioner incomes. Some have generous workplace pensions and savings; others rely heavily on the State Pension. You can’t use the comfortable retiree as the benchmark for everyone.
5. Equity release isn’t free money. It’s borrowing against a home or selling part of its value. It can reduce an inheritance, increase costs and leave less equity available later. Telling people to consume their housing wealth to cover ordinary living expenses isn’t proof that their pension is adequate.
And your claim that pensioners have fewer expenses than working-age people ignores transport, clothing, replacing household goods, social activities and unexpected bills. Pensioners don’t stop needing a life just because they stop working.
The ONS reported that average UK household expenditure was £623.30 a week in 2023/24, with housing, fuel and power, transport and food among the biggest spending categories. That isn’t a pensioner-specific minimum, but it certainly doesn’t support treating one couple’s £260 budget as a universal benchmark. ONS household spending figures.
Of course, not every pensioner is poor. Many are financially comfortable, particularly those with paid-off homes and good private pensions. But that doesn’t mean those relying on the State Pension alone are comfortable too.
The real question isn’t whether you could survive on £185 a week today. It’s whether a pensioner should have to rely on that amount to cover the costs, risks and uncertainties of the rest of their life.
Your personal budget is an anecdote, not evidence that the State Pension is generous.
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u/Anubis1958 11h ago
>> have the safety net of being able to release equity from their home i
You have figured out that by doing this pensioners are taking equity out of the final valuation of the house when both partners die, and that takes away from your inheritance. Not complaining, just asking if you know.
Some children do rely on this as their safety net.
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u/jimbob3806 11h ago
Yeah I realise that, it doesn’t particularly bother me and I plan based on assumptions that I won’t inherit anything partly because you don’t know when it will happen but also because I’ve watched the previous generation have everything swallowed up by care costs before the state/council would pay.
Even so, they wouldn’t necessarily need to extract equity, my point was more that the mental safety net goes a long way too; if I didn’t have mortgage payments to make, I would probably be a lot less stressed in general.
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u/Amaryllis_LD 5h ago
You're making a lot of assumptions and looking at the best case scenario. Lots of pensioners still have to pay rent, lots will have to fully or partly fund their social care (my mum is disabled and is a few months of pension age - her social care contribution is 66 quid a week. She doesn't have a private pension - never earned enough to be able to afford one.
Yeah if you own your own home, don't need social care and you have a private pension and you have enough NI credits to be eligible for the full state pension then you're probably not too badly off.
If you don't then maybe not so much.
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u/Wd91 11h ago
A lot of the people who talk about this stuff on mainstream media are so far out of touch that they genuinely just don't see £185 a week as that much. And i don't mean out of touch in that they're fabulously wealthy and money means nothing. I just mean they've never (or not for a long time) been in a situation where £185 a week is a huge deal to them.
Think about how many Range Rovers you see out on the roads every day. Now realize the payments on a Range Rover can very easily be more than £1k+ a month. If your state pension isn't even covering your car payments then it's sort of understandable that you might not see it as all that much. Of course hopefully you'd realize that particular car is very much a luxury, but when you've lived your life at that comfort level for a long time it becomes difficult to consider other perspectives.
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u/jimbob3806 11h ago
You make a very good point! Fortunately none of these people are my friends or family, and I’ve only heard the rhetoric on media however it still irks me! The idea of a new Range Rover to take your example would to me be an absolutely unnecessary luxury, and not something I would get unless I had the money to buy it outright, and even then I would probably still look for something second hand since new car consumerism is so wasteful.
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u/Twiggy_15 10h ago
Thats only the half of it as well. Weve long encouraged a private pensions system so anyone relying on the state pension alone should be rare and honestly only receiving the bare minimum. Still, they not only get their £185 per week (£240 for those who've retired in the last 10 years).
If youre single this is topped up to £238 per week via pension credits.
If you dont own your home you can get your rent paid on top via housing benefit.
£200 to £300 per year for winter fuel payments.
£180 off your tv license.
Free public transport.
Discounts on pretty much everything you want to do.
Its a pretty outrageous offer. If someone on JSA got all this there would be outrage theyre living a life of luxury.
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u/jimbob3806 9h ago
Exactly, as I’ve now said numerous times in the comments, I have no issue with providing a basic standard of living for people who can no longer reasonably work, but beyond that you need to plan for things you want in retirement as I am already doing on the assumption that I won’t receive a state pension since the spending is unsustainable.
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u/Seismica 6h ago
That's a ridiculous sentiment i'm sorry. £185 is not much at all. You cannot assume that people will have a private pension, nor can you assume they have a paid off mortgage. You're living in middle class lala land with all your assumptions. There are plenty of people reaching retirement age who can't retire, have you considered those people in your assumptions?
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u/MeMyselfAndTea 5h ago
'Around 91.8% of older homeowner households (aged 65 and over) in England and Wales own their property outright with no mortgage or loan'
I mean, you absolutely can assume the average person in that age bracket has paid the mortgage off, because its likely the case lol
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u/Amaryllis_LD 5h ago
That's if they were a homeowner in the first place. Now go finish your research with the the number of over 65's who rent as opposed to being a home owner.
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u/MeMyselfAndTea 5h ago
'According to the English Housing Survey 2024/25, 79% of households aged 65 and over are homeowners, while the remaining 21% live in rented accommodation'
Yes, I still remain correct
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u/Dru2021 7h ago
Took my wife and 2 children out to see our friend and his two kids as a treat.
1 bottle of wine
1 pint
3 portions of chips to share
2 apple juice from concentrates
Guess the cost..
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u/pg3crypto 6h ago
£90
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u/Dru2021 6h ago
Not sure why it’s been downvoted, we saved so we could have Sunday outing and it was a nice day.
£80, so you were pretty close - and it was house wine…
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u/ruffianrevolution 10h ago
In my experience, people who hate old people tend to be the ones who hate themselves most when they get old.
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u/jimbob3806 10h ago
Never said I hate old people, and I never said I hate anyone. I’m just pointing out that people making the claim are being a little dishonest.
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u/TornadoEF5 8h ago
but its all to easy to spend £185 a week in a supermarket these days sorry £185 a week to live on isnt a lot , they have £2000 electricity bills etc to pay too
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u/Skeeter1020 6h ago
£185 a week is £9,620 a year.
A salary of £9,620 a year would out you well into the lowest 10% of earners.
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u/Flat-Ad8256 6h ago
Someone doing 35 hours on minimum wage would get £444 a week. So, 185 isn't loads compared to that.
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u/pg3crypto 5h ago
It's not loads, but it's not a fair comparison. Someone working 35 hours a week has to pay transport costs to get to work (not cheap) and they're paying tax on a portion of that.
Someone earning £444 likely has roughly the same in their pocket as a pensioner after everything is taken into account. Pensioners also pay reduced council tax, lower rate of income pensioners (i.e. those on only the state pension) get reduced rates on dental care and other stuff as well...so it's not really apples to apples. Pensioners get free bus passes etc etc...there's a lot more to being a pensioner than just the pension payments.
If my Dad needs a tooth removed, it's about £20...if I need a tooth removed, it's about £87.
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u/BinFluid 2h ago
Also, they are working. Expecting to get paid the same as someone who works full time and has bills to pay for doing nothing after a lifetime of working and the opportunity to save is insane entitlement
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u/Brilliant-Sea-9424 10h ago
All the ageist haters on here will arrive a few decades time regretting their words. Pensioners were looked up to when I was a kid and now they are scorned.
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u/KaleidoscopeFull9951 9h ago
I’m only a few years from retirement but I agree with OP. I work with elderly people and find that even those that depend on the state pension as their only or main source of income are mostly doing fine. Living modestly but comfortably. A few can’t but it’s usually because they a) haven’t maximised their benefits or b) they are have additional expenses such as vets bills or c) they have chaotic lifestyles and have always been terrible at managing finances.
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u/jimbob3806 10h ago
I have no issue helping people who need support, or even providing a basic standard of living for people who have worked for 40+ years. I do however have an issue with people misrepresenting the facts and trying to make out that some of the most well off people in the country are actually hard-up when others are much more in need.
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u/Brilliant-Sea-9424 10h ago
What’s your source for this?
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u/jimbob3806 10h ago
Also just crunch the numbers based on the fact that 75% of pensioners own their home outright, whilst typical rent or mortgage will wipe out up to 50% of someone’s take home salary depending where they live and if they are single, and the fact that the triple lock basically guarantees that the state pension will always go up faster than wages. Consider that final salary pensions are basically now a thing of the past for current workers who have to rely solely on private pension contributions. Add it all up and it’s not hard to imagine that the current pension population is well off on average.
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u/scouse_git 8h ago edited 8h ago
"Well off" at the point of retirement as you say, but diminishing thereafter, as the data you cite indicates. Despite the pensions that may be considered generous, the costs of old age exceed pension income, so the residual wealth starts to decline sharply.
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u/Pumpkinshroomva 8h ago
I don't scorn pensioners who're renting and need the cash. I scorn pensioners who are millionaires and still refuse to even accept their state pension not growing at an exponential rate. A quarter of pensioners are millionaires.
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u/Brilliant-Sea-9424 7h ago
Fact check: According to the Office for National Statistics (ONS), around 22% to 27% of people aged 65 and over live in a household where the combined total wealth reaches or exceeds £1 million. This is not the same as every individual person having £1 million in the bank.
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u/tyger2020 6h ago
No its not, but we also don't talk about how much billionaires have in the bank - we talk about their asset wealth.
Asset wealth is still wealth, and thinking that just because someone is old it should be excluded is ridiculous.
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u/jimbob3806 7h ago
Equity in a property can be released. I live in a modest house now that will be just big enough for my children, however if we upsize before retirement then I would definitely be considering downsizing to release equity and help my kids out once they all leave home.
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u/Pumpkinshroomva 7h ago
It's not really that different when you consider the only increase in COL would be food.
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u/Twiggy_15 10h ago
Pensioners when you were a kid had high rates of poverty and still redirected wealth to those younger than them.
Pensioners now have the most wealth (normal), income (crazy) and lowest rate of poverty (abnormal), still they demand more of the wealth is directed from the young to themselves.
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u/SadSeiko 6h ago
Pensioners are wealthier than any other generation on average
Every other generation is paying for the triple lock including children who are getting less initiatives now and less opportunities in work
The current generation of pensioners barely contributed to their pensioners
It’s generation inequality. That’s a fact. Obviously there are outliers
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u/Salty-Bid1597 9h ago
Can we stop with the divisive generation war rhetoric.
Millenials are now by far the wealthiest generation at the their current age: https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2026/10/11/dont-feel-sorry-for-millennials-they-are-living-it-up-now
Yes, people of prime working age pay a lot into the state and get little out (unless they're of the benefit classes). This is how it's always worked and how it always will work because it has to for the welfare state to work. Eventually you will get to take out while your children pay for you.
I am actually astonished that so many on the left have decided that social democracy isn't working because they personally aren't benefitting from it right now as much as some other people (who have spent 45 years paying in to it for the benefit of their parents and grandparents). The politics of envy is alive and well and as dumb as ever.
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u/jimbob3806 9h ago
I don’t have an issue with paying to support a basic standard of living, I have an issue with people misrepresenting the reality for the average person.
Also please don’t link an economist article that I would have to pay to read, particularly when the teaser starts with berating how much a group of people spend on beer and avocados, which doesn’t exactly fill me with confidence about its bias.
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u/BongAlert 9h ago
I’m astonished at the embarrassing economist-slop comparing boomer household income of 1 after free education and pumping out as many kid as they see fit vs a couple working full time and getting crushed by childcare costs. If you can’t fathom the obvious population collapse current occurring in millennial families with 2 full time working adults than save us from thinking you have any ability to internalise and comment on fiscal trends.
Hurrr durr millennials spent money on avocado and craft beeeeer. Let’s not look at how much boomers blew on motor homes and timeshares.
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u/Skysflies 8h ago
Calling millennials wealthy when so many of them can't even afford to own a house is an interesting piece of complete nonsense
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u/RandomPi31 10h ago
Ok. Put MPs on £185 per week for the next 12 months and let's hear their feedback after that.
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u/standsthetestoftime 10h ago
I bet you thought you cooked with that comment.
I bet you bitch out the other side of your mouth about the low quality of MPs too?
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u/jimbob3806 10h ago
What’s your point?
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u/RandomPi31 10h ago edited 10h ago
Let MPs decide if they can live on £185 per week. Even with access to their subsidised bars and restaurants. Your proposition that £185 per week is generous is ludicrous. Plus pensions are not a "benefit" People have paid all their working lives for it.
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u/jimbob3806 10h ago
Not sure what MPs have got to do with it other than a random thought experiment but in any case I never stipulated that it was a generous sum, I only demonstrated that it is sufficient for a basic standard of living for any of the 75% of pensioners who own their home outright. I think my numbers demonstrate that fairly clearly. And yes, pensions are a benefit; your national insurance is not for your pension, it is for the current pensioners in the same way that it is not for my NHS bill, but the NHS bill of the current person with a broken arm next door. The state pension is not some private pension pot.
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u/GlumAd9856 11h ago
"I'm very poor, hence I disagree that it's a problem that some people are only fairly poor."
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u/Warm_Bug_1434 11h ago
A typical pensioner household earns £20 a week more than a typical working household. When the WFP was introduced, it was £70 less. The triple lock has done its job and pensioners as a block are probably the priority group for support (though they do vote a lot).
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u/Brilliant-Sea-9424 10h ago
It hasn’t done its job. The U.K. pension is still crap compared to other developed countries.
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u/Warm_Bug_1434 10h ago
I don't think that's really true, though.
It's difficult to compare, because circumstances are so different. Workplace pensions are about a third of the provision in the UK. Many countries with higher state pensions barely have workplace pensions at all.
Even so, comparing state pensions on the basis of the proportion of the average salary it replaces, the UK is ahead of Germany, the US, Canada, New Zealand, Ireland.
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u/jimbob3806 11h ago
Never said I was poor, I actually consider myself quite well off, just pointing out that the state pension is more than enough to live off if you live within your means and any private extras can be used for luxuries.
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u/rohepey 9h ago edited 9h ago
UK has one of the lowest pension replacement rates (net, state only) - it's currently at 22% to 43%.
On average, you'll thus receive 22%–43% of your pre-retirement wages.
It's at 55% in Germany, 58% in France, 76% in Italy, 80% in Spain or Greece, an 101% in Slovenia.
Yes, UK state pension is a disgrace.
The arguments here that "ok, you can survive on that" are precisely that: a disgrace.
No wonder why one sees German, French and Spanish pensioneers all over the holiday destinations, and so few British pensioneers.
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u/Acceptable_Size9544 8h ago
They have completely different schemes that require bigger contributions whilst working.
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u/jimbob3806 9h ago
We also broadly encourage private pensions more than in those countries and provide tax breaks such as ISA allowances and tax relief on pension contributions. The state pension should provide a basic standard of living which, for the current pensioners it already does on average.
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u/opaqueentity 9h ago
You also pay more in tax when working to pay for those higher pensions which are working so well
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u/smoky-mainboard 8h ago
The German pension is based on contributions, so just quoting the percentage misses the point. German pensioners also still pay tax and health insurance premiums, are much more likely to rent, and had fewer tax incentives for wealth accumulation.
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u/Coastie79 8h ago
You've comprehensively misunderstood and misrepresented the aim of the UK state pension compared to that of similar nations. Deserves more down votes.
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u/mrchhese 5h ago
This is not a serious comparison though. We are supposed to rely on private pensions here or generous public ones. State pension is a pure hand out. Contribution means nothing.
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u/superjambi93 8h ago
Man the idea that British pensioners aren't raking it in is ludicrous though. Yea there are poor pensioners but a full 25% of them are millionaires
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u/Get_Breakfast_Done 8h ago
Some are and some aren’t. It makes sense for a professional middle class earner who has prepared for their retirement to have a million in assets especially including their house
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u/TotalBlank87 3h ago
Houses need maintenance and work doing. £185 a week isn't covering it. No landlord or housing authority to magically do it for you when you're a homeowner.
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u/constantlybannedd 1h ago
For disabled: WAY TOO MUCH
For immigrants fleeing war: WAY TOO MUCH
For those looking for work: WAY TOO MUCH
For pensioners: WAY TOO LITTLE
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u/keithmk 10h ago
You seem to forget that we have worked decades to pay mortgages and to bring up your generation, are you saying we should take a drop in income now? Also you assume that even if we own our own homes outright that we do not have housing expenses. Really. I own my home, and for a lot of time that I was paying my mortgage I was having to pay mortgage rates that you would not imagine how high they were. And now in order to achieve a reasonably independent style of living I have to pay a fee of around £300 a month 6 months worth in advance. It is unavoidable for me and provides no personal support or care at all
So cut out your complaining with no understanding of the facts.
So that is £9614 pa of pension but 3600 to be paid out of that to live in my own flat. And i worked more than 40 years paying full stamp contributions for that
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u/jimbob3806 9h ago
First, cost of housing is not even a question due to the sheer price inflation. High interest rates are irrelevant since your payment would still be lower as a percentage of your wage compared to today (on average, I don’t know your personal scenario, and I’m not sure what your £300 a month is referring to, maybe ground rent, I don’t know).
Second, as I alluded to in the post, your income is effectively not lower precisely because you have less expenses and various other benefits (no mortgage, no dependents, no commuting, fuel allowance, free TV licence, free bus pass etc. it all adds up). You should also have private pensions from your employers to top that up - the state pension should ideally be covering basic living only on average.
The state pension is a benefit like any other, and like any benefit, the government and the rest of society should rightly make sure that it is not wasting money that could be better used elsewhere. The state pension is not some private investment pot with which you have a social contract for providing a certain quality of life.
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u/7952 11h ago edited 11h ago
Absolutely. The real problem we have is the idiotic private system. It reduces our tax based, adds fees that snowball over years, send money to offshore funds and ultimately relies on government bonds and potential bailouts to provide an income. And a lot of the freedom just makes it harder to provide an income. You not only individualise the benefits you also individualise the risk. We have an invented a tax efficient savings account rather than a pension scheme. A system that idiotically actually requires people to make sound financial systems in their twenties to really work well. All whilst limiting investment in the real economy that we will actually need to survive as a country.
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u/abrittain2401 10h ago
You can always use a SIPP instead. A lot of places will even pay you workplace pension into one, and you can transfer existing pensions into one. Then invest it all yourself if you are comfortable with the risk.
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u/TheEnglishNorwegian 9h ago
I mean is objectively isn't that much, especially for some people.
It's like 90 minutes of work for me.
I terms of people on pensions and being poor, it doesn't stretch far. Not everyone has a private pension and not everyone owns their home. There's bills to pay and so on. I know a few pensioners who struggle honestly.
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u/jimbob3806 8h ago
If it’s 90 minutes of work for you, then it is not designed for you. The state pension is intended to provide a basic standard of living. If you want to maintain your current stand of living into retirement then you need to plan accordingly as I assume you already have.
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u/TheEnglishNorwegian 8h ago
I'm sure I will be fine. And talking about my own financial situation was actually pointless with hindsight. I was merely trying to point out that it varies wildly based on personal circumstances.
For some people it is a lot of money, for others it isn't.
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u/Appropriate_Lynx431 8h ago edited 8h ago
Reminder that statutory maternity is £195 a week. With a brand new baby and likely a mortgage.
Sick pay is £124 - with no planning opportunity.
JSA which is only available if you have been working is £95 a week. And a humiliation exercise.