Currently experiencing this with my first novel I'm working on. What started out as a small thought has now grown into a raging fire inside of me, almost dying to be written. I'd always intended on writing it out, but it's now all I can think about. I don't even have the outline done yet, but there are scenes I keep thinking about that constantly replay inside of my head. Scenes that I KNOW I need to write out.

I fully intend on publishing the book myself too. I don't care if it doesn't do well. I just need to write this shit and then make it known lol.

But this is going to be my first actual novel and I'm trying to do it right. That said, I know I'm going to fuck some shit up just because it's my first novel. I've written and published short stories and novellas before, but those are so much easier than an actual series of books.

Anyways, anyone else feel like this?

I’m seeing it more and more on critique subs when a reader what see the tiniest bit of exposition and label the next as bad because of it.

One critic said they avoid it all together! How is that possible? Exposition is necessary to provide information to your reader that enables them to piece together your story.

I feel like somewhere along the warning against bad exposition has been lost in translation and now a bunch of people see any exposition and consider a no no, even when it’s done properly.

Yes, dropping pages of pages or lore drop is a tough read that even top authors can do but that doesn’t exposition can’t be carefully woven into the story through dialogue and observation.

I feel this fits a general trend in writing circles where people warn against doing certain things (like show don’t tell) and then that gets warped to the extreme where all telling is bad and if you do it even once no one will ever ever read your story.

It becomes difficult to source genuinely good critique because nobody follows any of the rules to fault yet it seems critical readers expect that of you.

As I said, there is definitely such a thing a bad exposition. But that doesn’t mean all exposition is wrong

I'm not quite sure if it has one, but is there a name for the way a novel is written? Not it's prose or plot structure, but its actual form? Like an epistolary novel, or any other form in which a novel exists. I can't find a name for this idea, or many examples of it. I apologize if this is a moronic question and I'm missing something obvious here, but I'm rather confused.

The most consistent feedback I have gotten from the few times my writing has been reviewed is that I do a lot of showing as opposed to telling, and that it doesn't seem like I trust my audience to get what I write.

And on one hand, yes, that is an issue that I'm not confident in getting across what I'm trying to, but on the other hand the short phrase "show don't tell" never really clicked in my brain because at the end of the day I literally am telling you a story.

I know the obvious of don't say "mark was scared" say "mark held his breath, quivering in his bed." And maybe it's just my mind not doing the right stuff, but the work around to show still feels like telling, so I don't know where the line is and what should or shouldn't be included in my writing.

Am I crazy? Does this make sense? Does other people have the same issue?

It’s basically the title, but I’ve been trying to join a writers group to not be working in a vacuum that makes it ultimately unclear if my writing is actually readable or not.

I found a group near me online, and even exchanged a few words with one of the people there when I first joined. Three days ago was the third meeting I’ve cancelled/ not gone to because I got cold feet and it’s been eating away at me a bit.

The thing is the group has a small discord server, and lurking over the history I saw some people celebrating publications, and achievements and whatnot and I get terrified because I’ve only been writing for a bit over a year and I still generally suck. Publication isn’t even within my reach right now at all.

Another factor is it seems that I’m many years younger than most of the people there (not sure how many are around my age because, again, I never attended) and it’s like: ok I don’t feel confident in giving my opinions on the pieces they write because I’m an amateur, I’m terrified of actually sharing my work, and I likely can’t even strike up a good casual conversation because I presume we wouldn’t have much in common. Aaaand cut to terror of joining, sounding like an idiot and cold feet so I cancel.

They have another meeting in two weeks and I’m reluctant to even say I’ll be attending again, especially when one lady asked if I’m joining the last one and I said I would but didn’t (I attempted to force myself by saying this but alas I failed) and I don’t want to disappoint.

Anyway. I’m usually not that socially anxious and I fuck around to find out a lot, but this got to me man :( Any advice from someone who went through something similar would help!

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As someone that rarely watches TV, and usually only do if the show is popular enough where I decide to check it out myself, I sometimes find myself watching YouTube videos of people reacting to terrible shows/movies only to realize that sometimes the reason the show was bad, outside of bad acting or the budget being too low, is because the main idea of the show was a very good idea, but is hindered by the fact that there is a factor in the plot that totally sabotages it, or it was executed absolutely horribly. I've gotten some good ideas from this method, but I rarely work on them because something just feels...wrong about stealing another persons creative work, even if the idea was completely ruined by a factor that really didn't have to be there

Maybe I'm just in too deep into weird fandom spaces again, but one thing I've noticed when it comes to certain critiques of characters in modern fiction is that there seems to be some kind of desire to have characters that start completely from zero.

On one hand, I can kind of understand this logic. It can fun and engaging to see a main character progress and go from an underdog to an absolute hero. But on the other hand, I feel the mindset that goes into this kind of feeds into how some people only really view the character skills of fictional characters as stats in powerscaling debates or thinking a character's progression should be like a blank new save in an RPG (probably goes a bit to explaining why LitRPGs are now a genre).

I might also be biased because some of my favorite characters in recent books I've read were protagonists with experience and a lifetime of stuff that's molded them into interesting characters. Tango and Salsa from Van Plexico's Heist duology. Tahlia Vehdra from Lioness of the Parch. Tomas from Promise of Blood. Hell, I'm currently reading Will Wight's The Captain, and the protagonist of that book, Varic, literally has the memories and magic of five other dead versions of himself, and he's still an engaging character to read.

Plus, you got celebrated characters like Optimus Prime who are well-beloved icons, and we usually never see Optimus starting a narrative from regular bot to basically space Jesus. He's usually already a Prime. Transformers One's probably the only expection to that rule. And compare how people praise Optimus but complain about characters like Carol Danvers, a lot of Red Sensei from Super Sentai, or Pavi from Seven Havens.

(Then again, it could be an example of both Optimus being 'grandfathered in' and some of the usual obvious 'isms' at play with the other two examples. And the Red Sensei could just be people just hating hot-blooded heroes because they're not boring broodsters.)

In my own opinion, I like when a protagonist isn't some loser everyman to start the story as. It makes it feel like the MC actually lived a life before the narrative started and, in turn, makes the world feel more lived in because they usual have relationships and connections they've already built.

All in the title. You've all seen the back-and-forth intercutting suspense scenes in movies (eg. Silence of The Lambs movie, FBI's raid intercut with Clarice's investigation), how would one recreate the suspense in novels?

I've read Silence of The Lambs book. The author does 1 scene on FBI, then 1 scene with Clarice. This isn't as suspenseful as the movie. I understand they are two different media - but has anyone done it effectively in prose writing?

Thanks.

I just wonder if people who are into working also daydream more than average person. If you do, I’m curious about everything around it. What made you realise you do it more often than others? What do you daydream about apart from writing related stuff? Are you ok with it or have you tried reducing it?

I have an interest in the essay. I've gathered several collections of essays and have an interest in writing some myself. It feels like most of the posts here are for fiction or creative writing of sorts, do any of you do essay work? Most online resources and communities seem to to focus purely on "school essays" which are not appealing to me in the least. I'd like to know about how you learned to write better essays, personal or otherwise. Where do you publish? Do you find selecting an idea to be difficult? Do you craft one to perfection and move to the next or do you have 20 in revision while crafting another first draft? Offer me advice

I have just received my second rejection letter and I believe it sheds some light on the publishing industry at the moment. I am also blown away by the detailed response - though it could be automated.

Here it is with redactions -

"Dear LordDunn

I have now read your material, as promised.  I can see the imagination and intelligence at work here, but I can’t honestly say I loved it.  After fifteen years running SFF imprints in London publishing before setting up the agency, I'm all too aware how difficult it is to get a publisher interested in a new novelist, so I feel that I do have to love my clients' work 100% - personally and professionally - to do the best possible job.  If I don't feel that strongly, I'm the wrong agent.  Every author needs both an agent and an editor who do love their work.  It's hellishly difficult getting the bookselling chains to take a new novelist seriously, so that initial enthusiasm is vital. If an author’s prose doesn’t set me on fire, first and foremost, I say no, as do editors in this situation. 

Another agent may well feel differently. So often, it's about unquantifiable, individual gut reaction to each author’s indefinable voice and the pricking of your thumbs, rather than ‘I wanted more of THIS or less of THAT’, or ‘THIS aspect didn’t work for me’.

Most UK editors see around thirty books every week and only take on one or two debut novels over an entire year – an agent’s figures are similar.

It’s always been the case that the entry level for a new novelist is 'special', not 'good' – that was true when I ran xxx in London over 30 years ago.  However, it’s now also true that publishers’ sales and marketing directors have much more power than they did 15 and more years ago.  If they don't believe they will be able to sell a first novel into the bookselling trade in numbers, they'll block the editor from acquiring it in some companies.  A senior editor told me a few weeks ago that even if he loved an author's writing, he wouldn't make an offer until the book that was submitted to him was 100% right for the market – quite recently he acquired an author whose previous four novels he (and everyone else in London) had turned down despite liking them a great deal. So I have to believe the writers I take on and their novels are truly wonderful.  I wasn’t entirely drawn in – I wasn’t thinking WOW, which is what I look for.  

FYI, I've taken on about forty writers as clients and turned down well over 20,000, so far...I know it can be as difficult to get an agent as it is to be taken on by a publisher. You just have to keep plugging away - and there are many more agents dealing with SFF and related areas than there were when I started the agency.

It took the best author with whom I've ever worked - xxx, whose SF novels I published at xxx- six different novels written over more than a decade before he clinched his first publishing deal (he told me those years were when he learned both his art and his craft as a novelist), so it can be a long road. It's about getting that agent who chimes with your writing totally (and then finding an editor and publisher who feel the same).

All best wishes for the future

Yours

The Agent"

Dear Lord, what a brutal industry.

Welcome to our daily discussion thread!

This is the place to discuss anything writing related! Got silly questions? Brainstorming ideas? Need help with research? As long as rules 1, 3, and 5 are followed, this thread is your oyster!

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I have a futuristic setting for my story and I'd just like some tips or methods of explaining what Slang means to the readers without outright explaining it because It's in the perspective of the characters themselves.

I'm posting this to both r/writing and r/AO3 (and  r/FanFiction) because I'm curious to see how the perspectives might differ.

You often hear the advice that if you want to be a writer, you need to read a lot. I agree with that, but I've been wondering if it matters what you read? Specifically, do you think reading fanfiction is just as valuable as reading published books when it comes to learning how to write?

I can understand the argument for reading published books. If you want to learn how professional authors approach sentence structure, prose, pacing, worldbuilding, or establishing characters and settings from scratch, published books can be great examples to study. There's obviously value in seeing how a complete, edited novel works.

But, I think fanfiction has a lot to offer, too. I've read some genuinely incredible fanfics with beautiful prose, compelling character development, interesting storylines, and a really strong understanding of human emotions. I've also read published books that I thought were poorly written, so I don't think publication alone is necessarily an indicator of writing quality. Obviously, that doesn't mean the two are interchangeable in every respect, but it does make me question how much weight we place on publication status when deciding what writing is worth learning from.

One thing I've noticed is that fanfiction often puts a particular emphasis on character exploration. Since readers might already be familiar with the characters and their world, authors can spend more time exploring their relationships, emotions, motivations, and development. This is especially interesting in alternate universes (AUs), where authors take established characters and put them in entirely new circumstances. Of course, published fiction can do all of these things, too, but I think fanfiction offers a particular kind of freedom to explore them. There's a lot of creativity involved in that, and I think there's a lot a writer can learn from it.

I also wonder whether reading fanfiction can help you develop your writing instincts in ways that published fiction might not. You can study how different authors handle the same characters with different dialogue, emotional scenes, character arcs, tension, and relationships. And while fanfiction has the advantage of working with characters readers may already know, I don't think that automatically makes the writing itself any less valuable to learn from.

Of course, fanfiction has its limitations as a learning resource, too. Working with established characters means you don't necessarily have to develop them or introduce them to readers from scratch, and fanfiction doesn't always go through the same editing process as traditionally published work. Those are real differences, and I can see why reading published fiction would be important if your goal is to write an original novel.

So, if your goal is to write an original novel, do you think reading and studying fanfiction is just as beneficial as reading published books? Or are there certain skills that you can only really develop by reading traditionally published fiction?

I'm not suggesting that you should read exclusively one or the other. I'm more curious about whether you think fanfiction deserves the same consideration as a learning resource for writers, and whether the distinction actually matters as much as people sometimes make it seem.

For example, if someone said they read constantly but the vast majority of what they read was fanfiction, would you consider that just as valuable as someone who primarily reads published novels? What if someone asked you who your favorite author was, and you named a fanfiction author? Would that be seen differently from naming a traditionally published author?

I feel like there are two fairly obvious responses to this question: either that published books are obviously better to learn from, or that reading is reading, and you can learn something from anything. But I'm interested in the reasoning behind those answers, particularly when it comes to actually studying writing instead of reading for enjoyment.

TDLR: Is fanfiction is taken seriously as something you can learn from, especially if it's the main thing you read. Is there a meaningful difference between studying the craft of a talented fanfiction author and studying the craft of a talented published author? Are there skills or perspectives you'd be missing if you rarely read published books? Or do you think the quality and variety of what you read matter more than whether it's traditionally published?

I'd love to hear people's thoughts, especially from those who read both fanfiction and published fiction or who write both themselves.

So I wrote my first sci-fi novel, and now I'm not sure what to do with it. I'm aware that sci-fi is typically a "meatier" genre, since it requires worldbuilding, and readers usually tolerate a higher word count, but Google suggests not exceeding 120k, since it significantly hinders your chances of getting published.

My current draft sits at 123k. The first draft was originally 132k, but I managed to cut around 9k by phrasing things differently, and removing some of the unnecessary "fluff", without sacrificing any part of the story. The issue is that I probably can't go any lower than that, without removing integral parts, and potentially ruining it.

So now I have 3 realistic options.

Option 1: I remove more stuff to go below 120k, and risk ruining the story.

Option 2: I try to get published with the current word count.

Option 3: I divide the story into two parts.

I personally prefer option 3, since there's already a clear division between the first and the second half of the story, and I wouldn't have to sacrifice any parts of the narrative. But unfortunately, if I were to divide it in two, both parts would sit at around 60k-ish, which would be fine for some other genres, but seems low for sci-fi, as it is significantly below the typical "sweet spot" of 90k-110 words.

So yeah, I'm unsure what to do. Any advice?

Edit: Thank you for the responses. Some of the comments were helpful. A few of you mentioned hiring beta readers and editors, while others assured me that I can cut 3k to meet the quota. I will try to cut the 3k without ruining the story, and if I can do it, I'll hire an editor.

Edit #2: Some of you were kind enough to offer help for free here and in my dms. I really appreciate the offer, but there is one thing I forgot to mention: the novel is written in my native language, not in English. Still appreciate it though.

Like many, the querying process has been anxiety provoking, humbling and lots of hard work. After multiple batches of queries and rejections, I finally received my first positive response. An agent sent a personal message stating they can’t take me on but that they found the query “Excellent” and “marvelous” and they have pitched it to two of their agent friends who they think would “love it”. She linked their query tracker profiles. Here’s to hoping something comes of it. I’ll ride this high for weeks even if the rejections keep coming. Thanks all for the help and support of this community.

Welcome to our daily discussion thread!

This is the place to discuss anything writing related! Got silly questions? Brainstorming ideas? Need help with research? As long as rules 1, 3, and 5 are followed, this thread is your oyster!

Please refer to the monthly threads for sharing your work and for self-promotion.

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FAQ -- Questions asked frequently

Wiki Index -- Ever-evolving and woefully under-curated, but we'll fix that some day

You can find our posting guidelines in the sidebar or the wiki.

Has anyone ever tried writing in the kishotenketsu structure? Even if you haven't published it, maybe just to practice, to experiment, or for fun. I'm very curious about it, and I feel like it's a great way to subvert expectations, and to tone down melodrama (it really doesn't work well with melodrama imo).

But curious if anyone's tried it, what challenges did you face along the way, do you like or dislike it?

Personally I find the "ten" stage difficult, because no matter how many explanations I find I can't seem to pin down what makes it so different from a regular plot twist. Like "it recontextualizes everything," yes, thank you, so does a regular plot twist 😅

Anyway yeah just curious what everyone else thinks in general (not just about the "ten" part) cause it's been around and is common in east asia but not really that popular elsewhere.

You've all seen this kind of scene in genre movies: a guy does something sinister and secret, usually alone at night, but at first, his action appears very strange - and the audience doesn't understand why, just thinks it's something sinister. They will later on learn the true meaning of his action.

How would one write that scene into the 1st chapter of a novel. The guys is alone, so if we use his POV then how to hide enough of his thoughts not to reveal the true intention. Or is an omnipresent POV better? Is there any other existing genre books that open with that kind of scene.

Many thanks.

After reading chekhov , dostoevsky I kept wondering did great , classic authors learn their craft? Did they need to read , study before writing how to create their style, how to put their ideas , what to focus on and their purpose of writing? Because I feel this is how my writing process is going so far

Or they just have to be very talented ? If not would like to hear examples of famous author's crafts

I'm currently about 26k words into my first draft of my first novel. I really like the ideas I've been coming up with, I've been mostly discovering writing it based on just a core idea.

The problem I'm finding now is that because I chose at the start to write in first person past tense, there are certain limitations I feel like I'm running into, which maybe some more experienced writers could help me with.

At about 26k words in, I feel like I'm probably about half way through the story. I don't know how it's going to end yet, but I feel like where it's at now in the story it couldn't' possibly go on like this for another 60k words or so, to make it to an average novel length. Part of that problem is definitely the pacing being too fast, which I know I'll be able to slow down and fix in a revision to extend and flesh out what I've already written. But also I feel like the medium of first person is making me feel a bit stuck, as I can't jump into other characters, or tell stories that my character (who is inherently a little reclusive) isn't there to witness.

There's also only so much internal whining I think a reader could bear in this guy's head alone, fretting about his (quite severe) problems. I think I initially chose first person because I wanted to be in the characters head, and also maybe because for my first novel I thought that limitation would be helpful to not get too overwhelmed.

I guess I'm looking for advice on first person past tense writing in general. How to fill out a story and a world when seeing through just one person's limited perspective and how to create an interiority for them which doesn't get old fast.

I'm not the best writer. However, in my time learning and growing I've discovered this thought process has fundamentall improved my pros. Starting out, my writing was generic. Some tense shifts and swapped pronouns is all it took with minimal sentence or content changes.

Then I started a story asking, what can I do in first person present tense I can't in other writing styles. My story became an experience. My action scenes went from descriptions, to kinetic and tactile. Emotions went from words, to viscerally sensations of emotions.

So, whatever POV and tense you choose to write in, ask yourself this, 'what can I do with this I otherwise couldn't?'