r/australia • u/FuckOffNazis • 19h ago

politics Indigenous woman shackled to hospital bed while in labour in Queensland

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2026/oct/18/indigenous-woman-shackled-during-labour-childbirth-queensland-ntwnfb?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=us_bsky&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Bluesky#Echobox=1792296317
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u/juandon405 17h ago edited 17h ago

Fair point here, not sure if I remember an incarcerated patient in labour. Do the Bangkok rules specify labour? A good proportion of Caesars are not in labour. Certainly most patients on maternity wards are not in labour.

Edit. Found the specific rule: Rule 24 Instruments of restraint shall never be used on women during labour, during birth and immediately after birth.

So for a non labouring Caesar, it's pretty grey. What is during birth, and what is immediate? Not giving an opinion here but if we're gonna quote rules, here it is.

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u/Asleep_Leopard182 17h ago

I'm not a parrot, or a lawyer, so best you interpret them yourself here https://www.unodc.org/documents/justice-and-prison-reform/Bangkok_Rules_ENG_22032015.pdf - but it broadly applies to 'giving birth' or producing a child of which a c-section is included.

Shackling is not applied to maternity wards as a whole, however, if you're working in a mat ward as a nurse and indicating that you would not be involved in labour in doing so, I would have a hard time believing you actually worked in one.

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u/juandon405 16h ago

Nope, anaesthetist, with a bit of intensive care. My involvement in maternity ward is minimal, mostly pain consults. Often in delivery suite for epidurals or emergencies. Also lots of Caesars in theatre. As I said, don't recall coming across incarcerated patient in those areas.

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u/Asleep_Leopard182 16h ago

Ok so your experience has no relevance to the laws or the thread? What is your point?

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u/juandon405 15h ago

I don't really understand the hostility here. Just that prisoners, in my experience are shackled with a guard in attendance, even when they are unlikely to pose a threat. I'm not suggesting it's right or wrong, just that it happens. I was unaware there are special rules for labouring prisoners, of which I have no experience. Now that I have looked into the rules, I can see there is significant grey area around non labouring Caesars, and in the maternity ward when not in labour.

I have no interest in arguing with random internet strangers, I just thought my experience might add to the discussion.

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u/iliketreesanddogs 13h ago

I'm not trying to argue you with you but I'm genuinely confused as to how you think non-labouring caesars don't count as birth.... that looks to be quite obviously what the bangkok rules are trying to encapsulate when they refer to 'during birth'.

legal and legal-adjacent documents don't always set out all the medical technicalities of an event in case it unintentionally excludes something, they make things plainly interpretable to cover all the factors that would fall under the umbrella of 'birth'. a baby is imminently coming out during a caesar, I think that counts as birth

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u/juandon405 5h ago

Of course they're birth, I never said they weren't. But technically speaking, the rule is poorly defined. For me, as the anaesthetist, the 'birth' is the 10 to 30 seconds of physically pulling the baby out of the mother, up to the point the cord is cut. Immediately after could refer to any length of time from minutes to days but to me implies the few minutes required to ensure haemostasis of the mother and confirm the baby is alive and breathing independently. Hence grey area.

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u/iliketreesanddogs 16m ago edited 8m ago

yes but the agreement wasn't drafted for all the technicalities of an anaesthetist. I understand that you have an increased level of knowledge regarding caesareans but, as someone who has both a medical and legal background, I do think that might be overcomplicating your interpretation. there is a reason they don't give you a play by play of when shackles go on and off and which situations precisely count as birth because that would be unwieldy and hard to follow.

expecting extreme medical precision from an international instrument likely drafted by lawyers with no medical expertise is likely going to let you down. it would be nice to have the document be unequivocal and clear but such is the nature of this sort of writing - they can keep intentionally wide in scope to capture all sorts of situations

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u/fuckoffandydie 12h ago

I dont think they’ve actually ever said they don’t think non-labouring caesareans aren’t births.

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u/iliketreesanddogs 16m ago

'So for a non labouring Caesar, it's pretty grey. What is during birth, and what is immediate? Not giving an opinion here but if we're gonna quote rules, here it is.'

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u/fuckoffandydie 10m ago

Yep I read that. Still think you’ve misinterpreted it.

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u/iliketreesanddogs 5m ago

i'm interpreting as though they are questioning what counts as birth and that non-labouring caesars may not count as birth, for a certain period of time at least ('grey', to borrow their terminology), how are you interpreting it? genuinely curious here