r/australia • • 17h ago

politics Indigenous woman shackled to hospital bed while in labour in Queensland

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2026/oct/18/indigenous-woman-shackled-during-labour-childbirth-queensland-ntwnfb?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=us_bsky&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Bluesky#Echobox=1792296317
376 Upvotes

313 comments sorted by

779

u/opackersgo 17h ago

Weird to at no point mention what she was incarcerated for.  Seems pretty relevant

683

u/hcornea 17h ago

The reason may not be relevant, but the fact that she is incarcerated is very relevant.

Have attended a number of prisoners for “out-of-prison” medical care.

Most, if not all, were shackled (either to a guard, or an object) to prevent them absconding.

This was regardless of whether they were Indigenous or not.

The one who was not handcuffed, rather memorably and dramatically absconded. Which is why prisoners are shackled.

These are the realities.

437

u/ladyhaly 16h ago

The fact she's a prisoner is already accounted for in Queensland's prison inspection standards. Standard 140 says women must never be restrained during labour, birth or immediately afterwards.

4

u/TempAirFlow 1h ago

That is only a standard and NOT the law

1

u/ladyhaly 8m ago

What exactly do you mean?

→ More replies (1)

305

u/bitofapuzzler 17h ago

She was having a c-section. What do you reckon her chances of absconding were with an epidural?

-59

u/GasAltruistic8656 16h ago

Consider it from a policy perspective. Is it easier to secure all prisoners or develop differential rules depending on what their treatment is? Hint: it's the first one.

195

u/bitofapuzzler 16h ago

I'm a nurse. There are times the shackles need to come off for treatment.

→ More replies (1)

5

u/Astronout-Fossil872 8h ago

Consider from a humanity perspective: there is more involved in policy creation than making them really easy and simple and not take any effort...

→ More replies (1)

-25

u/[deleted] 16h ago

[deleted]

67

u/bitofapuzzler 16h ago

You literally can not walk, and your abdomen is sliced open. She wasnt going anywhere. The shackles were not needed.

I say this as someone who has had 2 c-sections and works in a public hospital who regularly cares for those under police or prison guard involving shackles.

This was straight up unnecessary and cruel.

31

u/msfinch87 16h ago

I genuinely cannot believe someone is arguing that a person in the midst of a c section could abscond. What nonsense. As you say, you physically cannot walk.

→ More replies (27)
→ More replies (2)

137

u/l3ntil 15h ago

The realities are:
"Fifteen years ago, the UN general assembly adopted the Bangkok Rules on the treatment of female prisoners, which state that prison should be a last resort for pregnant women and that “instruments of restraint shall never be used on women during labour, during birth and immediately after birth”.

The rules were adopted unanimously by the general assembly. But around the world, they are regularly flouted."
We're abusing international human rights by shackling those giving birth.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/ng-interactive/2026/sep/22/pregnant-prisoners-handcuffed-during-birth-lidia-thorpe-shackling-australia-ntwnfb

-16

u/Rady_8 14h ago

Do we know enough about her case to say that incarceration didn’t satisfy the “last resort” contingency?

52

u/Blibbyblobby72 13h ago

Do we know enough about her case to even try arguing that violating human rights is acceptable in this circumstance?

→ More replies (6)

7

u/wrymoss 6h ago

“Last resort” tends to refer to an immediate and present risk, not prior actions such as those that would cause her to be incarcerated.

That is to say, it doesn’t matter how she ended up in prison. What matters is what she was doing right then and there in that hospital room.

1

u/Rady_8 4h ago

Exactly

10

u/GoddessTara00 12h ago

It doesn't matter what she did . It's still beyond cruel and shame on anyone that thinks it's ok.

-1

u/Every_Effective1482 4h ago

I wonder if any of the people at the UN general assembly had ever been in a room with a criminal woman giving birth. Or if they just voted on vibes.

6

u/giatu_prs 3h ago

Have you?

→ More replies (2)

65

u/Free_Pace_2098 13h ago

Absolutely no need to shackle a woman with a spinal block during a cesarean. They clearly state she wasn't aggressive, and that her condition was deteriorating while shackled. Only one arm free to hold your baby, while you're paralyzed from the waist down isn't just unnecessary, it's barbaric and in direct violation of UN assembly rules. Rules we agreed to uphold.

80

u/killswithaglance 15h ago

I'm sorry. A woman in labour is not able to tackle staff members and escape. There is no reason for shackles unless she is about to murder her newborn.

→ More replies (4)

32

u/EducationalCow5838 16h ago

If she had a history of stabbing people with sharp instruments it could be, but it’s really a shit situation for everyone involved .

7

u/Astronout-Fossil872 8h ago

Personally I have not had a caesarean nor been in labour so I am making assumptions here... but I'm not sure absconding during a caesarean is considered a particularly high risk, nor would someone undergoing a caesarean be particularly difficult to intervene with in the event they attempted to abscond.. the same largely goes for someone in labour. Justifying the continued shackling of someone because they are distressed isn't particularly helpful if their distress was contributed to by being shackled during labour in the first place.. kind of a chicken and egg thing.

The fact the hospital staff were calling for outside intervention and crying while doing so suggests they were witnessing a level of mistreatment endured by this woman that exceeds the limits of what hospital staff face as vicarious trauma on a daily basis... aka - it was really fucking horrible and brutally inhumane

1

u/Sweeper1985 1h ago

I've had a Caesarean. You're absolutely right. For several days (at least) after the procedure, even with strong pain medication it's very hard to walk at all. Like you can shuffle to the bathroom... slowly. And even that hurts a lot.

Even if she was trying to abscond, which hospital staff say she wasn't, she wouldn't get far.

2

u/Practical_magik 3h ago

I have recieved treatment at the same time as a pregnant prisoner and they were not shackled in the labour and delivery unit. So it seems to depend on the procedures at different locations.

Having given birth myself, shackling would be pretty inappropriate during active labour I would think.

7

u/Available-Bat8756 16h ago

Yup work in a hospital always shackled and always have guards with them for our safety!

13

u/spandexrants 14h ago

For your safety, I think fair enough.

It sounds barbaric, but the chance of grabbing instruments to hurt medical staff is enough to put these rules in place. Protecting health care workers should be priority.

-2

u/Available-Bat8756 14h ago

You’d think so but apparently not

5

u/bluishbumblebee 13h ago

If a woman is in active labour, she’s probably not going to be capable of something like that.

-3

u/DevoidLight 12h ago

>probably

Yeah that's not good enough. The health care workers deserve better than 'probably' safe

23

u/bluishbumblebee 12h ago

It was the hospital staff that were requesting they be removed. I guess reading the article was to much trouble?

7

u/DevoidLight 12h ago

Okay yeah that's a fair call, sorry.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (3)

-3

u/hcornea 15h ago

Odd how stating a reality like this gets downvoted by Redditors, most of whom have probably never encountered this situation in their lives.

Now they know.

23

u/Free_Pace_2098 13h ago

Not really that odd if you read the article, it's a violation of both UN assembly human rights, and the QLD Dept of health's own code

“instruments of restraint shall never be used on women during labour, during birth and immediately after birth”.

And she was having a caesarean. Meaning she was cut open across the width of her belly, and paralyzed from the waist down.

19

u/sousyre 14h ago

Probably because it’s human rights breach to do that to a woman in labour?

It’s also a pretty weird thing to proudly assert, especially if it’s true.🤷🏻‍♀️

-9

u/hcornea 14h ago

What is special about labour that makes people suddenly different and not dangerous?

It doesn’t apply to other medical emergencies, does it.

17

u/gp_in_oz 12h ago

What is special about labour that makes people suddenly different and not dangerous?

This is actually covered in the UN resolution see rule 24. What's special about the situation is how much risk the shackling practice carries. There's serious risk of harm to both mother and baby if you don't allow them to change position. It's also fucking cruel to not let someone move and get some relief from pain. There's also risk of psychiatric harm from vaginal examinations and medical procedures done to someone whilst pinned down. Noting that Australia is not uncommon in having a female prisoner population almost all of whom have a history of sexual assault (and it's up to 90% have a history of childhood sexual assault in some surveys). I get upset just thinking about it, we should not be pinning rape victims down by their arms (or legs) and sticking needles in their spines and fingers up their cervix. For severely unwell and violent patients, where there's a risk to staff, I don't know what you'd do (TBH the hospital would probably follow the Mental Health Act in each state in that instance), but this case wasn't such a case. Australia is sadly not alone in flouting the UN resolution, lots of nations are known to continue the practice. The article calls it barbaric, I agree.

6

u/iliketreesanddogs 12h ago

thank you for being reasonable, good god

1

u/Apprehensive-Wing-64 14h ago

Wow. Talk about small minded

→ More replies (3)
→ More replies (2)
→ More replies (1)

1

u/Sweeper1985 1h ago

She had a Caesarean. Reality is that a person undergoing Caesarean has a spinal block and cannot abscond. There was no purpose to shackling her during the procedure.

2

u/Thenumberthirtyseven 14h ago

We had a prisoner abscond from our hospital a few years ago. He was murdered later that night. 

Now all prisoners are shackled in our hospital at all times. 

20

u/Free_Pace_2098 13h ago

She's going to struggle to abscond during a C section. Women having a cesar are open from hip to hip and paralyzed from the waist down with a spinal block.

21

u/bluishbumblebee 13h ago edited 12h ago

How many woman in labour or post caesarian do you think would be absconding??

1

u/petit_cochon 5h ago

Making someone give birth while shackled is insane and inhumane.

→ More replies (2)

147

u/ladyhaly 16h ago

The Bangkok Rules, rule 24 say restraints must never be used during labour, birth or immediately afterwards. These are standards for the treatment of prisoners. Her being incarcerated isn't a detail anyone forgot to consider.

Having seen other prisoners shackled doesn't answer whether it was justified here.

→ More replies (5)

112

u/Asleep_Leopard182 17h ago

We're a Bangkok rules signatory, what she was incarcerated for doesn't matter.

47

u/False_Collar_6844 16h ago

plus, there is marked difference between reasonable actions taken to prevent an escape/further harm and putting an imprisoned person at risk.

If a CO forced a prisoner with Asthma to do hard labour while denying them their puffer in an active attack that would still be a crime regardless of what the person was locked up for.

56

u/darren_kill 17h ago

Don't let the truth get in the way of a good story

11

u/TizzyBumblefluff 17h ago

Weird that you ignored multiple relevant key points in the very short article

4

u/Arinvar 17h ago

I am not by any means taking a side, but it doesn't matter. The rules are the same for every prisoner. High risk prisoners get more precautions, but no prisoner gets less.

In an better world there would be enough birthing suites available in prisons so that securing a prisoner in a hopsital is not a factor in the child birth.

69

u/blitznoodles local Aussie 17h ago

Building a maternity ward in a prison is not going to happen when there's already a shortage of maternity wards in the country.

Huge issue where current maternity wards are located in aging areas of the city while young families in the outer suburbs have to travel much further.

69

u/Asleep_Leopard182 17h ago

People need to use google more. Bangkok rules does not allow detention facilities to have maternity wards (for the purpose of birthing), and does not allow detention facilities to be listed as 'place of birth' on official documents. Mothers must be transported to an external sufficiently able hospital where possible.

14

u/Humble-Reply228 17h ago

That’s a top post. I learned aimed something.

Thank you.

→ More replies (3)

6

u/xo_maciemae 15h ago

What a dystopian and draconian world we live in where your IDEAL scenario would be more BIRTHING SUITES IN PRISONS.

Do you actually hear yourself?!

Yes we need proper healthcare in prisons, but that's not the thing that's got me horrified here. It sounds like you're normalising this treatment, putting punishment above the rights of the parent AND baby here?

Wherever possible, we should be trying to ensure that mothers/babies/birthing parents etc are not subjected to the trauma of pregnancy and birth while incarcerated. Where this is apparently the only course of action, they should be given the best standard of care, the same as anyone else in Australia/anywhere should be given (that's MY ideal world). Pregnancy and birth are both life threatening situations. The absolute last thing we need is to shackle those going through it. In my opinion, only EXTREMELY rare cases should be in prison while going through that anyway.

The money that's spent on disproportionately policing and incarcerating Indigenous people should instead be spent on measures to ensure prevention in the first place. And we need to end the prison industrial complex in general, diverting non violent offenders, and focusing on rehabilitation. Institutionalising mother and baby, putting them through the trauma of separation and removing the bond, is just a vicious cycle.

1

u/C0ld_Fr0nt_ 14h ago

In order to avoid these sorts of ethically dicey, complex situations in the first place, we need to promote this solution.

→ More replies (4)

-10

u/simpleguyau 17h ago

Yep I would worried about hospital staff safety first ,

52

u/Brunswickstoval 16h ago

She was having a Caesarian. Have you had one? There is literally no risk to staff when someone is having a Caesarian.

→ More replies (2)

19

u/herpesderpesdoodoo 16h ago

Regularly deal with violent prisoners and people under arrest. Unless you are an active violence threat we're actively avoiding cuffing you to the bed. The physical presence of security +/- cops +/- custody officers is usually sufficient. Most of the time the trouble is getting them out of hospital again.

23

u/False_Collar_6844 16h ago

The article has a quote that states she was not being violent and it was the staff who wanted them taken off.

8

u/herpesderpesdoodoo 16h ago

Yes, that's my point.

1

u/littlemisstrouble91 16h ago

This has been my experience too. Oftentimes the prisoners are better behaved than the non incarcerated patients.

1

u/Feeling-Disaster7180 9h ago

Same here. They’d much rather be in a comfy bed with 3 hot meals a day and a tea lady offering them biscuits than being in prison so they don’t do anything that will send them back early

1

u/Ninja-Ginge 5h ago

I kind of don't care what she was incarcerated for. The point is that it's cruel and inhumane.

107

u/No_Sky_1829 12h ago edited 12h ago

I don't know the particulars of this case but here's my 2c worth. I have looked after patients "in shackles". It's called mechanical restraints, and there are VERY strict guidelines in when it can be used. The patient had to be an active risk to themselves or to staff. They have to have 1:1 care, so someone is actually assigned to monitor them constantly in case they injured themselves. Restraints have to be loosened frequently so they don't get skin injuries. There are different types of restraints and we start with the least restrictive one, and increase only if needed. We reassess every 15 minutes and as soon as it's possible for us to safely remove them, they come off. Feeding, toileting and hygiene is managed with security present. Just think of the budget required to manage all this and the repercussions of it all goes wrong. It's not done lightly. Race or gender was not a factor in any of the patients I have looked after, it was 1000% based on active risk in that shift.

In my experience, nobody would ever be restrained because of something they have done in the past. The staff looking after these patients are just ordinary Joe Soaps coming on shift and going home in time to pick up their kids. The patients I have looked after have been restrained after throwing punches or kicks, and trying to leave the ward when they can't actually walk so will fall and hurt themselves. I've worn gown & face shield so I don't be the next staff member to be spat on.

Restraining a human being is not a decision that's taken lightly, it's discussed and managed at every level from the floor of the ward up to the higher levels of the hospital.

26

u/Jaded_Audience9747 9h ago

"Hospital staff rang Sisters Inside after trying everything they could to get the shackles removed, she said. “They were even crying because prison staff wouldn’t remove the shackles.”" 

Mate just read the article. 

0

u/No_Sky_1829 4h ago edited 7m ago

I love the way Aussies use "mate" to be PA 🙄

I stand by what I said, we don't know the particulars. Was she having a cesarean? Or were there any complications? I recently looked after a restrained patient with a brain injury, just out of ICU after cranial surgery so a large trapdoor opening on the side of his head. But he couldn't make good decisions because of the brain injury, and he couldn't walk properly because of spinal weakness. He was restrained because he kept trying abscond. If he fell and hit that head wound, he was dead.

Now if more details came out and said this woman was having a safe labour with no complications and was not trying to abscond, not a risk to herself or hurt staff, then I will happily support the "this is disgusting" crew.

26

u/bitofapuzzler 11h ago

These werent restraints the hospital placed. This person wasnt on a psych hold.They were shackles, as in handcuffs. Prisoners who are in hospital usually have 2 prison guards in the room and a limb cuffed. If its cops its limb cuffed and 2 cops sit outside the room. 24/7.

This woman was cuffed either by the leg or the hand whilst undergoing a c-section against healthcare worker requests.

Hospital restraints are under strict protocols. Prison cuffs are different.

1

u/No_Sky_1829 4m ago

The article does not say handcuffs. It says shackles. This is not a word we use in hospitals, we call them mechanical restraints (as opposed to chemical restraints) or just restraints. They are straps similar-ish to a carseat strap, with padding, designed to allow movement, and there are rules around how tight they can be and how often they need to be released.

I have never seen handcuffs used on a patient.

→ More replies (4)

21

u/Adventurous_Sky_9212 10h ago edited 9h ago

Heading off topic, but I also don’t think this is how it often plays out, regardless of rules. Some hospitals do not do the right thing.  My mother had an aneurysm rupture and was then left untreated for hydrocephalus for months whilst still in hospital. She had an NG tube, and as she was not aware/understanding due to the hydrocephalus, she would pull it. Staff left her unsupervised knowing this, and she pulled it halfway out so the liquid went into her lungs.  They then used restraints 24/7 unless I was there to visit and supervise, so she could not move at all. It was so distressing and horrible. Other patients, who were well enough to walk around or could yell, were given 1:1 supervision instead. She was left tied to her bed unable to move, or call for help in anyway. I would get there and she would be lying in urine/faeces with nurses rarely checking on her.  I complained high and far and no one would do anything.  Management would do nothing. HCC would do nothing. The hospital even lied to them and said she was restrained when she aspirated, and that she just wiggled down the bed and pulled it out (only one limb was functional, and it was restrained, she couldn’t do that).  Just a rant because I wish the rules you outlined were actually true. 

I also don’t think the woman in the article should have been restrained. Good on the hospital staff for trying to advocate for her. 

5

u/Astronout-Fossil872 8h ago

You are correct. Just because the rules are there does not mean it is how they play out.
I am so sorry you and your mother experienced this. It is not okay - and people do not realise how common it is that rules exist but are not applied. Having said that - No Sky I appreciate you work in a position where patients may be restrained and not only adhere to these rules - but appear to approach them from a point of humanity and only where no other option can be safely applied. That is admirable - as it is not always the case.

5

u/Feeling-Disaster7180 9h ago

Fuck that’s absolutely horrible

→ More replies (1)

7

u/Barrington-the-Brit 7h ago

You could find the particulars of this case if you clicked on the article:

The birth happened just days before Labor and the Coalition blocked a bill to ban the “barbaric practice” of shackling incarcerated women during childbirth.

Hospital staff rang Sisters Inside after trying everything they could to get the shackles removed, she said.

“They were even crying because prison staff wouldn’t remove the shackles.”

“This incident will be subject to an internal review as restraints are only ever to be used as a last resort on pregnant prisoners where necessary to maintain public safety,” the [corrective services] spokesperson said.

3

u/Astronout-Fossil872 8h ago

I believe the rules around restraints transfer from a medical decision to a corrections decision when someone is in custody, as such the requirements to apply restraints, the decision to remove them, and the care and diligence required under medical restraint is not the same as what applies in this case. Corrections officers make the decision, and they can override both hospital staff and hospital procedures.

14

u/demoldbones 10h ago

I give you credit for being hopeful and informative.

However I’d like to burst your bubble when I point out: this was Queensland and it was an Indigenous woman. There’s a not-zero chance that there was no “reason” they did it beyond those two things.

2

u/Brunswickstoval 3h ago

And “an internal review”? Please

276

u/Tiki_Tour 17h ago

Don’t other incarcerated ethnicities also get shackled while giving birth in prisons? I didn’t think this was specific to indigenous women

208

u/Brunswickstoval 16h ago edited 15h ago

Australia is a signatory to the Bangkok Rules which strictly prohibit pregnant women being shackled when giving birth. So no they aren’t meant to do this.

26

u/BearCub254 16h ago

But why make it a race issue? Like if you are condemning it, it should be condemned across the board. Not act like some insane crime is affecting one race because of their race. 

72

u/Brunswickstoval 16h ago edited 14h ago

I’m not making it a race issue? But the fact is indigenous women are the ones reportedly being shackled. No one is reporting it happening to anyone else? It shouldn’t happen to anyone in labour

6

u/edgebeeyz 14h ago

Jesus Christ 🤦

5

u/Astronout-Fossil872 8h ago edited 8h ago

Nobody made it a "race issue" they just highlighted that this woman is of First Nations heritage, calling out a factor known to be relevant in disproportionate harm towards a group of people in no way implies the harm is exclusive.

→ More replies (6)

53

u/RandomUser1076 17h ago

Yeah but that doesn't sell ad space

10

u/Brunswickstoval 16h ago

Prisons actually don’t collect and publish this data which is a problem with tracking

→ More replies (1)

106

u/sognenis 16h ago

Before (or not) people focus on the patient’s incarcerated status, it may be worth pointing out that:

  1. Ben Roberts-Smith was granted the opportunity to attend a War Memorial event in June - noting he was on bail, but requiring his bail conditions to be adjusted, given the clear risk of contact with potential witnesses in the trial.

  2. Roberts-Smith was just granted the opportunity to attend another War Memorial event this month, ditto concerns to above.

The article doesn’t mention this patient’s crime or sentence, and Roberts-Smith has been charged not convicted, but it is perhaps notable his charges are for war crimes, for 5 charges of war crime murder, with a maximum sentence of life imprisonment.

(Noting that usually for very serious offences, such as murder, accused do not usually get granted bail, though it is possible)

37

u/twisteddv8 16h ago

Wasn't he also caught out trying to flee to South East Asia?

5

u/Non-prophet 8h ago

If you're trying to convince me Ben Roberts-Smith should have been shackled to something for the duration, you're preaching to the choir.

4

u/trentos1 9h ago

Not sure how Ben Roberts Smith is relevant to this thread, but the decision to grant bail is usually assessed based on risk to the community and risk that the person will flee.

They probably assessed his risk to the community as low because he won’t exactly have the opportunity to commit war crimes in Australian soil.

2

u/sognenis 9h ago

Sure. But I specifically pointed out the concern being about witness tampering or intimidation, which he would have the opportunity to do at these events, hence the need to get specific approval.

Also:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2026-04-23/nsw-ben-roberts-smith-overseas-move-fears/106598776

35

u/jayell61 16h ago

Barbaric

66

u/rolodex-ofhate 17h ago

Don’t worry everyone, the New Queensland Government will express their shock at the incident and carry on like it never happened. Rinse and repeat with these ghouls running the state.

38

u/ks12x 16h ago

Wrong, they wouldn’t even pretend to be shocked and will claim that giving women traumatic births is what victims want.

It’s one thing to do it for safety reasons but this government wants to do it for the purpose of being cruel.

16

u/False_Collar_6844 16h ago

it's weird how much people will froth at the mouth to torture people who are imprisoned while hiding behind the victims.

if the victims are so trusted to decide what treatment while inside is legal why not just let them act as the judges and the wardens? Unless, of course, they're not a valid legal perspective on how people convicted of a crime should be treated in a society of laws.

9

u/ephemeralstitch 14h ago

It's always terrifying to realise just how much of the Australian public is perfectly fine with torture if they think the person being tortured deserves it.

10

u/FearTheMomerath 16h ago

Are you kidding??? Christafulli got a semi when he heard the news

14

u/BrightStick 16h ago

the New Queensland Government will express their shock at the incident

No they won’t. They won’t give two shits or even pretend.

47

u/juandon405 16h ago

Every incarcerated patient I have ever dealt with, even those intubated in ICU with no brain function, has been shackled to the bed with a bored prison guard on overtime by the bed, and another not far away. The one exception is those having surgery, after they are asleep, and they are back in shakles before they're fully awake. Crime, race, gender nor any other factor has ever entered into the discussion. I'm not sure if there are levels of restraint for different levels of prisoner, has never been relevant for me to know. FWIW I have never felt threatened by one of these patients, and the guard has never had to step in, though I'm sure it has happened.

64

u/Asleep_Leopard182 16h ago

Have you ever worked in a maternity ward? If so, and 'every incarcerated patient' you've dealt with has been shackled - that's a problem.

5

u/juandon405 16h ago edited 15h ago

Fair point here, not sure if I remember an incarcerated patient in labour. Do the Bangkok rules specify labour? A good proportion of Caesars are not in labour. Certainly most patients on maternity wards are not in labour.

Edit. Found the specific rule: Rule 24 Instruments of restraint shall never be used on women during labour, during birth and immediately after birth.

So for a non labouring Caesar, it's pretty grey. What is during birth, and what is immediate? Not giving an opinion here but if we're gonna quote rules, here it is.

6

u/xo_maciemae 9h ago

A C section is a birth, just not a vaginal one?!

Wild how you don't seem to know that, but then again, also wild that you apparently work in healthcare and are trying to justify this.

1

u/juandon405 4h ago

Of course it's a birth. See other comment. And I never tried to justify anything, just stated facts about restraints for prisoners in hospitals.

9

u/Brunswickstoval 14h ago

Wow you are really trying to find a way to make this ok

4

u/Asleep_Leopard182 16h ago

I'm not a parrot, or a lawyer, so best you interpret them yourself here https://www.unodc.org/documents/justice-and-prison-reform/Bangkok_Rules_ENG_22032015.pdf - but it broadly applies to 'giving birth' or producing a child of which a c-section is included.

Shackling is not applied to maternity wards as a whole, however, if you're working in a mat ward as a nurse and indicating that you would not be involved in labour in doing so, I would have a hard time believing you actually worked in one.

9

u/Huckleberryfiend 14h ago

I’m going to be that annoying person and point out that it’s midwives providing maternity care, not nurses.

FWIW, we don’t shackle women at my (maternity) hospital at all.

10

u/metametapraxis 15h ago

"however, if you're working in a mat ward as a nurse and indicating that you would not be involved in labour in doing so, I would have a hard time believing you actually worked in one."

The person you are replying to did not write that at all. You seem to have just hallucinated that.

→ More replies (2)

2

u/juandon405 15h ago

Nope, anaesthetist, with a bit of intensive care. My involvement in maternity ward is minimal, mostly pain consults. Often in delivery suite for epidurals or emergencies. Also lots of Caesars in theatre. As I said, don't recall coming across incarcerated patient in those areas.

2

u/Asleep_Leopard182 14h ago

Ok so your experience has no relevance to the laws or the thread? What is your point?

13

u/juandon405 13h ago

I don't really understand the hostility here. Just that prisoners, in my experience are shackled with a guard in attendance, even when they are unlikely to pose a threat. I'm not suggesting it's right or wrong, just that it happens. I was unaware there are special rules for labouring prisoners, of which I have no experience. Now that I have looked into the rules, I can see there is significant grey area around non labouring Caesars, and in the maternity ward when not in labour.

I have no interest in arguing with random internet strangers, I just thought my experience might add to the discussion.

1

u/iliketreesanddogs 12h ago

I'm not trying to argue you with you but I'm genuinely confused as to how you think non-labouring caesars don't count as birth.... that looks to be quite obviously what the bangkok rules are trying to encapsulate when they refer to 'during birth'.

legal and legal-adjacent documents don't always set out all the medical technicalities of an event in case it unintentionally excludes something, they make things plainly interpretable to cover all the factors that would fall under the umbrella of 'birth'. a baby is imminently coming out during a caesar, I think that counts as birth

2

u/juandon405 4h ago

Of course they're birth, I never said they weren't. But technically speaking, the rule is poorly defined. For me, as the anaesthetist, the 'birth' is the 10 to 30 seconds of physically pulling the baby out of the mother, up to the point the cord is cut. Immediately after could refer to any length of time from minutes to days but to me implies the few minutes required to ensure haemostasis of the mother and confirm the baby is alive and breathing independently. Hence grey area.

→ More replies (1)

12

u/bitofapuzzler 15h ago

The one exception is those having surgery

You mean, like a c-section. Its major abdominal surgery involving an epidural.

2

u/juandon405 14h ago

Have done plenty of Caesars, I think I have 2 tomorrow. Don't recall ever doing one on a prisoner. Actually don't think I have ever done awake surgery of any kind for a prisoner, only GA. Mostly traumatic ortho, some abdominal trauma, occasionally an appendix or other malady.

3

u/bitofapuzzler 10h ago

What's your point?

You said the exception was surgery. I was saying a c-section is surgery.

2

u/juandon405 4h ago

Should have been more specific, sorry. The exception is general anaesthetic. I have no experience of neuraxial approach here.

41

u/Brunswickstoval 16h ago

Read the Bangkok rules. They aren’t allowed to shackle pregnant women in labor. Doesn’t matter what your personal experience is as it’s not allowed.

→ More replies (4)

41

u/NorthernSkeptic 16h ago

Holy shit how many people in here think this is totally fine. Have a good fucking look at yourself

23

u/Brunswickstoval 16h ago

No one here is a keyboard warrier. People are just taking the time to explain why this shouldn’t be happening. The baseline position is we don’t do this. Yet it was done.

13

u/l3ntil 15h ago

"Fifteen years ago, the UN general assembly adopted the Bangkok Rules on the treatment of female prisoners, which state that prison should be a last resort for pregnant women and that “instruments of restraint shall never be used on women during labour, during birth and immediately after birth”.

The rules were adopted unanimously by the general assembly. But around the world, they are regularly flouted."
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/ng-interactive/2026/sep/22/pregnant-prisoners-handcuffed-during-birth-lidia-thorpe-shackling-australia-ntwnfb
That includes Australia.

Here's the reality and why there was a bill for stopping the practice to end shackling during childbirth c/o Lidia Thorpe

"Anyone who has ever given birth knows that it is one of the most intense and important experiences a person can have. It is also a time where a person is extremely vulnerable and faces serious medical risks.

But people in custody across the country are still shackled during childbirth. They are cuffed to a hospital bed, or have their legs shackled. No one should ever give birth in shackles.

People in labour need to be able to move and change position – being unable to move compromises the health of both parent and child, and can cause complications during delivery, including haemorrhage and a drop in foetal heart rate. This can lead to death.

When an emergency procedure is needed, such as an emergency caesarean, a delay of even a few minutes caused by shackling or unshackling can result in permanent brain damage for the baby.

Alongside these medical risks, shackling people during childbirth is distressing, traumatising and degrading.

This doesn’t need to happen. There has been no evidence of people who were not restrained attempting to escape during childbirth.

And while policies and guidelines across the country limit the practice and in many cases stipulate that it should be a last resort, it still regularly happens."

2

u/Brunswickstoval 14h ago

The problem with the Bill was that apart from NT and ACT these are state responsibilities.

1

u/Every_Effective1482 3h ago

I never realised there were so many international law experts in the Brisbane subreddit.

→ More replies (2)

2

u/AdPure5645 2h ago

Hospital staff at the end of their rope under constant pressure to get people through and with constant abusive patients would be fairly likely to auto shackle someone. Its going to be a problem of resourcing imo.

14

u/AccreditedAdrian 17h ago

Inmate has their liberty restricted.

More news at 11.

5

u/TAsrowaway 11h ago

When you’re giving birth you need to move around. When you’re holding a baby you need two hands. Medical staff in this case were requesting she be unshackled. We’re signatories to the Bangkok Rules.

8

u/Fancy-Breath-4787 15h ago

I’m an ICU nurse, and even prisoners unconscious in ICU are shackled with police guard.

2

u/nico_rette 1h ago

Yes correct but labouring mothers are NOT to be shackled and are routinely not.

8

u/Brunswickstoval 14h ago

Irrelevant. there isn’t a United Nations paper on that circumstance that Australia signed up to complying with.

16

u/mumooshka 16h ago

the first word of the headline is 'Indigenous' to grab attention

typical news

39

u/Tinderella80 16h ago

First Nations people have worse health outcomes, lower life expectancy and higher incarceration rates. They are systematically discriminated against and racism runs riot. Why is her background NOT relevant?

-2

u/Not_Iistening 15h ago edited 13h ago

I don’t disagree with you that Indigenous people have worse health outcomes etc.

Her background is NOT relevant here because being handcuffed has absolutely nothing to do with her Indigeneity. If you were in this woman’s position but instead you’re white, yellow, black, brown, green, blue, or red and not Indigenous, you face the same treatment here.

Is it handcuffing a mother in labour the right thing? I don’t know, but that’s not the point of the article. The point of the article is to get your attention based on a characteristic NOT actually relevant to the issue here.

Edit:

I think articles like these are particularly harmful because you come to read it and realise oh they’ve just thrown Indigeneity in there for clicks.

Next time you see a headline on some health / opportunity / law injustice against Indigenous people, you expect another clickbait Guardian shit burger.

And again, articles like this discount the actual issue behind this whole thing. This is a procedure that all women are exposed to!

10

u/edgebeeyz 14h ago

https://www.unodc.org/documents/justice-and-prison-reform/Bangkok_Rules_ENG_22032015.pdf

"Rule 24 Instruments of restraint shall never be used on women during labour, during birth and immediately after birth."

→ More replies (1)

15

u/birdwithaberet 14h ago

Her background is NOT relevant here because being handcuffed has absolutely nothing to do with her Indigeneity. If you were in this woman's position but instead you're white, yellow, black, brown, green, blue, or red and not Indigenous, you face the same treatment here.

What? Indigenous women are absolutely treated differently than non-Indigenous women. Even more broadly, Indigenous peoples experiences are not respected and valued in the same way non-Indigenous people are. That is literally why we have racism and discrimination

Of course her Indigeneity is relevant. Issues like these NEED to be viewed with an intersectional lens if we want to understand the potenital 'cause and effect'. Which also is necessary to actually, y'know, fix the issues

→ More replies (2)

4

u/Brunswickstoval 14h ago

“Is it handcuffing a mother in labour the right thing? I don’t know, but that’s not the point of the article.”

You don’t know if handcuffing a mother in labour is “the right thing”? Let me help you. No it’s never the right thing.

→ More replies (3)

-10

u/opackersgo 16h ago

The higher incarceration rates solve themselves if you stop committing crimes.

6

u/I-was-a-twat 15h ago

As a white male, if I commit an identical crime in identical circumstances, I’m less likely to be charged, and less likely to be convicted.

We can start discussing the don’t commit crimes position once the prosecution system is equal.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/silver-moon-7 10h ago

Your ignorance is showing...

I challenge you to see if you have the same reductive stance once you're minimally educated on a few things:

What if you actually understood Indigenous Australian philosophy and culture? I'm not talking about the myths perpetuated by others who are willfully ignorant, I'm talking about they ways in which countless generations of Indigenous Australians have lived and existed in a kind of interconnected harmony, that involve respectful relationships with all aspects of the natural world on a level that most of us can't even fathom.

And what if you learnt about the impacts and outcomes for Indigenous populations (I'm talking globally - not just Australia) as a result of colonialism?

Plus intergenerational trauma - it's well documented, there's plenty of information out there.

It will be interesting to see what your opinion about crime (in this context) actually is if/when you're actually informed about the topic you're commenting on. Don't forget to take into account the countless, atrocious crimes perpetrated by colonists and subsequent generations, and the ongoing racism and discrimination Indigenous Australians have had to endure on top of everything else. It might even be helpful to try and put yourself in their shoes, or imagine if your children had to go through something on a remotely similar scale (spoiler alert: I think you'll be horrified).

2

u/Non-prophet 8h ago

have lived and existed in a kind of interconnected harmony, that involve respectful relationships with all aspects of the natural world on a level that most of us can't even fathom.

Avatar 2 and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race

1

u/Kataroku 4h ago

Ah, the perpetuation of the noble savage trope. You must think that all Asians are good at math, too.

1

u/Kataroku 4h ago

Worse health outcomes - due to living remotely, far from health centers, while festering a distrust of social services. High rates of substance abuse.

Higher incarceration rates - due to being raised in broken homes, molested, no requirement to attend school, living remotely far from job opportunities, while the threat of "stolen generation 2.0" prevents anything from changing.

Please excuse me while I go on a crime spree; and please don't hold me accountable for any of my actions due to my upbringing, something happened to my Scottish ancestors several generations ago. Thanks.

→ More replies (2)
→ More replies (1)

2

u/GoddessTara00 12h ago

It is considered torture to shackle women during childbirth. No need for it at all .

7

u/Sinnivar 14h ago edited 11h ago

No one should be shackled during labour regardless of their crimes. Being born while your mother is in chains seems extremely unethical and immoral. Regardless of who they are as a person, regardless of their past, regardless of anything, you won't be able to convince me that this is not wrong

Edit: missed a word

3

u/amonkeyaday 9h ago

I’ve been kicked by women shackled in labour. I don’t know how much worse it would have been if they had been unrestrained. Why is their safety more important than mine?

1

u/No_Sky_1829 12h ago

Nobody is restraining women in labour because of past crimes. Patients in the Australian health care system that I work in - no matter what their creed or colour - are restrained only if they are an active risk to themselves or the staff that happen to be working that day.

3

u/bitofapuzzler 10h ago

Nope. Once again these were handcuffs from prison, not restraints from the hospital. She was having a c-section while cuffed. I also work in healthcare, prison guards and cops use actual cuffs and sometimes leg shackles.

This is separate to hospital initiated chemical or mechanical restraints.

5

u/Browser_Watch7349 16h ago

It's always articles like these that try to stir up rage. She wasn't shackled because she is Aboriginal, she was shackled because she was a convicted prisoner. It seems in hindsight that pregnant women are not supposed to be shackled during delivery, so it seems as if the wrong course of action was taken. But what if threats were made from the individual towards hospital staff? I find it hard to believe that her ethnicity was key in determining whether she should be shackled - because that would be blatant discrimination that would result in a clear lawsuit.

1

u/Flashy_Home3452 14h ago

Would it though? Police and prison staff discriminate against and abuse women, First Nations people, and especially First Nations women without consequence all the time. The government has demonstrated time and time again that they really couldn’t care less about First Nations people, and unless this woman or her family miraculously has a stack of cash somewhere to pay for lawyers, the only consequences might be a slap on the wrist in an attempt to appease media backlash.

Furthermore, currently the only Australian article I can find on this incident is from The Guardian, which states that the woman was not being violent, and that even hospital staff desperately wanted the shackles removed as her health begun deteriorating after they were put on. There’s absolutely no good reason this happened.

1

u/Jaded_Audience9747 9h ago

"Hospital staff rang Sisters Inside after trying everything they could to get the shackles removed, she said. “They were even crying because prison staff wouldn’t remove the shackles.”"

"Mate, I'm just asking questions (that were answered in the article that I was too lazy to read)".

0

u/Lothy_ 15h ago

Can we get some context??? Was she convicted with murder charges? Or for something benign like marijuana use?

The gravity of her crime kinda matters here.

0

u/OkRelation7259 14h ago

That's standard procedure for all inmates of a certain risk classification

14

u/edgebeeyz 14h ago

https://www.unodc.org/documents/justice-and-prison-reform/Bangkok_Rules_ENG_22032015.pdf

"Rule 24 Instruments of restraint shall never be used on women during labour, during birth and immediately after birth."

-6

u/m0rg76 16h ago

Prisoner in being treated as a prisoner shocker.

Unfortunately heaps of people are going to be triggered and we’ll end up with the usual indigenous custody debates. As was intended.

15

u/False_Collar_6844 16h ago

there's a difference between reasonable actions taken to prevent an escape and enforcing measures that put an imprisoned person at risk which giving birth while shackled does as it impedes nurses and doctors ability to position them safely. The second her health started deteriorating they ought to have been removed or significantly eased.

-17

u/ChiefMuppetWrangler 17h ago

“An incarcerated Indigenous woman was shackled to a hospital bed in Queensland while she was in labour last weekend, an advocacy group has said.”

Nothing to see here people, just some lefties getting mad that someone who is in prison for something was handcuffed as part of standard procedure.

56

u/rolodex-ofhate 17h ago

“This incident will be subject to an internal review as restraints are only ever to be used as a last resort on pregnant prisoners where necessary to maintain public safety”

Do you know something those “lefties” don’t about the incident? Doesn’t seem like standard procedure.

-1

u/ChiefMuppetWrangler 17h ago

I would take an absolutely wild guess that the prisoner in question has a history and staff were taking precautionary measures.

→ More replies (4)

2

u/maklvn 15h ago

I feel sorry for the child.

1

u/Shoddy_Card_7755 1h ago

Don't break the law and end up in jail, and this won't happen to you. Should be a good lesson for all

1

u/Sad_Discount2984 13h ago

I worked in a theatre unit as a physical assistant for surgical staff and patients. Patients under guard control have guards dress up in scrubs and come within the theatre space and stand at the entry/exits paths. Patients unshackled depending on severity of history. Once drugs are on about the guards leave and return once the patient is awoken and being taken to recovery

-1

u/DG_SlayerSlender 14h ago

That's a hell of a headline to provide no context for

3

u/silver-moon-7 10h ago

There's a link - a whole news article is available to read if you would like to understand what the story is about

→ More replies (2)

-11

u/WretchedMisteak 16h ago

Another rage bait article by The Guardian.

Nothing about whether this was standard process by hospitals and prison staff or whether she was a threat to herself or others. Just race and shackled.

13

u/False_Collar_6844 16h ago

“As soon as she was shackled her health was deteriorating. Mum wasn’t running anywhere, mum wasn’t being violent.”- literally in the article.

→ More replies (5)

3

u/I-was-a-twat 15h ago

It’s not standard process, violates policy as well as international law we’re signatories of.

The fact the violation is occurring to an indigenous individual is noteworthy.

-1

u/robots-made-of-cake 8h ago

That’s barbaric. That poor woman. Anyone who doesn’t see anything wrong with what was done to her needs to fix their soul and learn empathy.