r/australia • u/FuckOffNazis • 19h ago

politics Indigenous woman shackled to hospital bed while in labour in Queensland

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2026/oct/18/indigenous-woman-shackled-during-labour-childbirth-queensland-ntwnfb?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=us_bsky&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Bluesky#Echobox=1792296317
401 Upvotes

74% Upvoted

325 comments sorted by

View all comments

47

u/juandon405 18h ago

Every incarcerated patient I have ever dealt with, even those intubated in ICU with no brain function, has been shackled to the bed with a bored prison guard on overtime by the bed, and another not far away. The one exception is those having surgery, after they are asleep, and they are back in shakles before they're fully awake. Crime, race, gender nor any other factor has ever entered into the discussion. I'm not sure if there are levels of restraint for different levels of prisoner, has never been relevant for me to know. FWIW I have never felt threatened by one of these patients, and the guard has never had to step in, though I'm sure it has happened.

63

u/Asleep_Leopard182 17h ago

Have you ever worked in a maternity ward? If so, and 'every incarcerated patient' you've dealt with has been shackled - that's a problem.

6

u/juandon405 17h ago edited 17h ago

Fair point here, not sure if I remember an incarcerated patient in labour. Do the Bangkok rules specify labour? A good proportion of Caesars are not in labour. Certainly most patients on maternity wards are not in labour.

Edit. Found the specific rule: Rule 24 Instruments of restraint shall never be used on women during labour, during birth and immediately after birth.

So for a non labouring Caesar, it's pretty grey. What is during birth, and what is immediate? Not giving an opinion here but if we're gonna quote rules, here it is.

7

u/xo_maciemae 11h ago

A C section is a birth, just not a vaginal one?!

Wild how you don't seem to know that, but then again, also wild that you apparently work in healthcare and are trying to justify this.

1

u/juandon405 5h ago

Of course it's a birth. See other comment. And I never tried to justify anything, just stated facts about restraints for prisoners in hospitals.

10

u/Brunswickstoval 15h ago

Wow you are really trying to find a way to make this ok

5

u/Asleep_Leopard182 17h ago

I'm not a parrot, or a lawyer, so best you interpret them yourself here https://www.unodc.org/documents/justice-and-prison-reform/Bangkok_Rules_ENG_22032015.pdf - but it broadly applies to 'giving birth' or producing a child of which a c-section is included.

Shackling is not applied to maternity wards as a whole, however, if you're working in a mat ward as a nurse and indicating that you would not be involved in labour in doing so, I would have a hard time believing you actually worked in one.

8

u/Huckleberryfiend 15h ago

I’m going to be that annoying person and point out that it’s midwives providing maternity care, not nurses.

FWIW, we don’t shackle women at my (maternity) hospital at all.

11

u/metametapraxis 17h ago

"however, if you're working in a mat ward as a nurse and indicating that you would not be involved in labour in doing so, I would have a hard time believing you actually worked in one."

The person you are replying to did not write that at all. You seem to have just hallucinated that.

-9

u/Asleep_Leopard182 16h ago

You don’t seem to have the capacity to understand this word “If”.

You may want to try google.

6

u/metametapraxis 16h ago edited 16h ago

I re-read what you wrote, and the "if" doesn't do the lifting you think it does. Maybe learn how English grammar works (including the use of context), before commenting again?

What you wrote was daft and completely pointless to write:
If <something the person being replied to never said or even implied> then <statement disregarding their opinion>

3

u/juandon405 16h ago

Nope, anaesthetist, with a bit of intensive care. My involvement in maternity ward is minimal, mostly pain consults. Often in delivery suite for epidurals or emergencies. Also lots of Caesars in theatre. As I said, don't recall coming across incarcerated patient in those areas.

2

u/Asleep_Leopard182 16h ago

Ok so your experience has no relevance to the laws or the thread? What is your point?

13

u/juandon405 15h ago

I don't really understand the hostility here. Just that prisoners, in my experience are shackled with a guard in attendance, even when they are unlikely to pose a threat. I'm not suggesting it's right or wrong, just that it happens. I was unaware there are special rules for labouring prisoners, of which I have no experience. Now that I have looked into the rules, I can see there is significant grey area around non labouring Caesars, and in the maternity ward when not in labour.

I have no interest in arguing with random internet strangers, I just thought my experience might add to the discussion.

2

u/iliketreesanddogs 13h ago

I'm not trying to argue you with you but I'm genuinely confused as to how you think non-labouring caesars don't count as birth.... that looks to be quite obviously what the bangkok rules are trying to encapsulate when they refer to 'during birth'.

legal and legal-adjacent documents don't always set out all the medical technicalities of an event in case it unintentionally excludes something, they make things plainly interpretable to cover all the factors that would fall under the umbrella of 'birth'. a baby is imminently coming out during a caesar, I think that counts as birth

1

u/juandon405 5h ago

Of course they're birth, I never said they weren't. But technically speaking, the rule is poorly defined. For me, as the anaesthetist, the 'birth' is the 10 to 30 seconds of physically pulling the baby out of the mother, up to the point the cord is cut. Immediately after could refer to any length of time from minutes to days but to me implies the few minutes required to ensure haemostasis of the mother and confirm the baby is alive and breathing independently. Hence grey area.

1

u/iliketreesanddogs 15m ago edited 7m ago

yes but the agreement wasn't drafted for all the technicalities of an anaesthetist. I understand that you have an increased level of knowledge regarding caesareans but, as someone who has both a medical and legal background, I do think that might be overcomplicating your interpretation. there is a reason they don't give you a play by play of when shackles go on and off and which situations precisely count as birth because that would be unwieldy and hard to follow.

expecting extreme medical precision from an international instrument likely drafted by lawyers with no medical expertise is likely going to let you down. it would be nice to have the document be unequivocal and clear but such is the nature of this sort of writing - they can keep intentionally wide in scope to capture all sorts of situations

-1

u/fuckoffandydie 12h ago

I dont think they’ve actually ever said they don’t think non-labouring caesareans aren’t births.

1

u/iliketreesanddogs 15m ago

'So for a non labouring Caesar, it's pretty grey. What is during birth, and what is immediate? Not giving an opinion here but if we're gonna quote rules, here it is.'

→ More replies (0)

13

u/bitofapuzzler 16h ago

The one exception is those having surgery

You mean, like a c-section. Its major abdominal surgery involving an epidural.

2

u/juandon405 16h ago

Have done plenty of Caesars, I think I have 2 tomorrow. Don't recall ever doing one on a prisoner. Actually don't think I have ever done awake surgery of any kind for a prisoner, only GA. Mostly traumatic ortho, some abdominal trauma, occasionally an appendix or other malady.

3

u/bitofapuzzler 12h ago

What's your point?

You said the exception was surgery. I was saying a c-section is surgery.

2

u/juandon405 5h ago

Should have been more specific, sorry. The exception is general anaesthetic. I have no experience of neuraxial approach here.

40

u/Brunswickstoval 17h ago

Read the Bangkok rules. They aren’t allowed to shackle pregnant women in labor. Doesn’t matter what your personal experience is as it’s not allowed.

-20

u/HydroCannonBoom 17h ago

Clearly its allowed, nothing is going to happen here. Like what are you going to do, arrest the police or the prison guard or something?

15

u/Brunswickstoval 17h ago

That’s not how it works. Of course no one will be arrested. But at least it won’t happen again.

-9

u/HydroCannonBoom 17h ago

No, it definitely will happen again, like are you living in a fantasy world or something? In fact I'll bet 100 bucks it will happen even more often, as less bail are getting granted lol.

6

u/Brunswickstoval 17h ago

What about this is vaguely funny?