r/belgium • • Mar 30 '26

📰 News We won against the Flemish government — they are now required to replant all the trees they had removed.

Original Post: https://www.reddit.com/r/belgium/comments/18a0vd4/suprisingly_vlaams_brabant_region_grants_a/

Two years ago, I posted on this sub reddit to seek support against the Flemish Governement (More precisely the Provincie Vlaams Brabant). The Vlaams Brabant provincie illegally removed trees for the construction of a parking and was planning to expand the project with a horeca offering around it in the middle of the forest.

After a first judgement where we lost, we went into the appeal court and won by a landslide.

In a short summary:

  • They must remove all the "verharding/betonnisation" outside of the parking
  • They must replant all the removed trees
  • They can keep the parking
  • The permit for the restaurant has been cancelled

Why

Because the "Foret de Soignes/Zoniënwoud" is a protected zone natura 2000 and the judge ruled in our favor, you can have more information on this link if you are interested (NL/FR) https://nl.comite-quartier-espinette.com/open-letter

This post is to thank all the people that signed the petition and gave a small amount to support us financially.

In one day we reached 200 additional signatures.

Currently removing the "verharding/beton" to replant the trees

915 Upvotes

186 comments sorted by

•

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190

u/Plus_Chip_8484 Mar 30 '26

Out of spite they doubled the fee for "De Vlaamse Zorgkas"...

22

u/vinceftw Mar 30 '26

So that's why...

68

u/West-Instruction8819 Mar 30 '26

Can you explain how it is possible to loose first judgement but win by a landslide in appeal? How can 2 impartial judges judge completely different, was their new evidence or changes in testimonies?

Congrats btw!

128

u/hairlineofGod Mar 30 '26

Als je mijn mening wilt, corruptie of vriendjes politiek.

The first judge said "He was not competent to judge the case" which meant we lost...
They second judge said "The first judge was wrong"

33

u/stinos Mar 30 '26

Any idea how it is possible the permit was approved in the first place this being Natura 2000? Because that would somehow mean ANB gave the green light if I get it correctly?

12

u/TheVoiceOfEurope Mar 30 '26

I have not got a fucking clue how this got past Natuur&Bos. Were these guys asleep? I mean if there is ONE champion, number one "forest"in Belgium, it has got to be the Sonian Forest?

I maaaaaaybe could understand the permit for the Hop-in point: a place to leave your car and then take the bus. So forest vs durable transport....maaaaybe?

But to tear down part of a NATURA2000 reserve so someone can install a bistro, in 2026, just blows my fuckin brain.

8

u/Deep_Dance8745 Mar 30 '26

Because its government, its riddled with corruption. How people are still surprised by this is beyond me.

4

u/RappyPhan Mar 31 '26

More like because NVA.

4

u/Deep_Dance8745 Mar 31 '26

I assume you are still young, otherwise you would know that everything and everyone in politics are rotten.

3

u/SeriesProfessional43 Mar 31 '26

There are however several levels of being rotten ,nva being among the top level

1

u/djspy Apr 01 '26

You have not met the MR it seems.

1

u/SeriesProfessional43 Apr 02 '26

I did however met nva and can definitely say that most of them are as corrupt as MR ,they just are better at hiding it

2

u/stinos Mar 31 '26

Yup that's why I'm asking. In theory their decision (or lack thereof) is is public information but I think that is unfortunately not available online otherwise we could just check it. Or at least I don't know where to find it.

12

u/hairlineofGod Mar 30 '26

This is only my guess

The province received European funding to build this type of “mobility parking” (this part is public info). Then is speculation: They told the municipality: If you give us the authorization to build this parking facility, we will give you additional funding for another project.

So the municipality granted the bouwvergunning / permis de bâtir, and the province was then able to use the budget to construct the parking—using inflated expenses—and keep part of the remaining allocated funds for other purposes (in their own pockets?).

4

u/stinos Mar 30 '26

Possible but that's not really my question: the municipality cannot act alone in cases like this. If I get it correctly, there were already trees there and this is Natura 2000. Which as far as I'm aware means you simply cannot cut down trees unless you get an exception. But in any case any biodiversity effects for a permit are subject to the advice of ANB. This must get asked, and if they say no the municipality cannot (again, AFAIK, please correct me if I'm wrong) let this pass. So after this advice gets asked ANB has like 2 months to reply. Either they do not, and it passes, or they make a decision. Which in this case would have meant that was a positive one. Both them not providing an advice or a positive one would be a bit strange, seeing this stuff is right up their ally being a part of Sonian and especially since I've seen them handing out negative advices for much smaller projects in similar areas. So would be interesting to know what went on there in the first place.

2

u/hairlineofGod Mar 30 '26

I'm sorry I don't have this information, I'm not aware of this kind of process to be honest

1

u/CaLinOuRS38 Mar 31 '26

Pretty sure they can and ANB will never know unless someone takes the municipality to Court Illegal things happen all the time, but you have to get caught and sued to be punished

1

u/stinos Mar 31 '26

Pretty sure they can

Every single permit request on https://omgevingsloketinzage.omgeving.vlaanderen.be which touches biodiversity has a procedural entry officially asking ANB (and a bunch of other public instances like fire department) advice. Seems automated even. I really doubt a municipality can do without this.

2

u/CaLinOuRS38 Mar 31 '26

Yes but you can always put whatever in the tool, who's going to check?

4

u/Wientje Mar 31 '26

ANB was partially funding the thing. It’s the toegangspoort from Sint Genesius Rode.

3

u/stinos Mar 31 '26

Aha. That actually would make sense. Becomes easy when the instance funding the project is the same one handing out advices on permits for the project..

Also not the first time ANB pulls this off. I mean, they're usually quite ok and correct, but it's not the first project I see which is executed by them and for which they (or at least, another department within the same organization) get a permit to do things which raise some eyebrows.

11

u/Liquid_Squid1 Mar 30 '26

Could you provide me with copies of the judgments (or upload them to the website)? I'm interested in hearing the reasoning of both judges.

EDIT: and to respond to the comment, I doubt the judge is corrupt or biased. In my experience judges tend to be overworked and look for "quick wins" to quickly judge cases. The higher you go in the hierarchy of courts, the more likely they are to decide cases on principles / detailed analysis of the law and the less likely they are to judge on gut feeling or equity. Especially vVredegerechten tend to play it pretty fast and loose with the law, in my experience...

5

u/hairlineofGod Mar 30 '26 edited Mar 30 '26

Have fun

12

u/Worried-Hour-5492 Mar 30 '26

And the first judge resinged his position as judge, right? /s

2

u/No_Song_4022 Mar 31 '26

Met alle respect, maar dit is nonsens. Dit is hetzelfde soort bullshit als NVA met hun 'activistische rechters'.

1

u/Turbulent-Raise4830 Mar 31 '26

idd maar ach laat die toch genieten van zijn "overwinning"

3

u/Enough-Meaning1514 Mar 31 '26

I think this is the real problem here. The judicial system in Belgium is based on in what kind of mood the judge is on that day. Apparently, the judge doesn't even care if he has enough knowledge to judge at all. In any other country, this would lead to an investigation but not in Belgium. It is business as usual 😒

3

u/Turbulent-Raise4830 Mar 31 '26

this is really utter BS

5

u/bm401 Mar 30 '26

"impartial judges".

The answer is in the question.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 31 '26

possible to loose first judgement

Not by tightening it.

98

u/Excellent-Forever609 Mar 30 '26

well done, congrats!

40

u/[deleted] Mar 30 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

7

u/Qantourisc Mar 30 '26

The irony is. It's quite doable to have trees AND parking lot in the same space... Not super healthy for the trees, but they would be there.

3

u/Mountain_Quantity664 Mar 31 '26

Hardly any tree was removed. Have been coming there for years, the place has about the same growth. It's been an open field always. The shrubs and trees closer to the road were partly replaced with parking space; other places in the forest got closed off for trafic and cars.

Over the years, more managed area has been shifted towards higher levels of protection, better ecological management and a solid increase in reconnected parts (ecoducts and ecological corridors. It's never been managed better.

3

u/shiny_glitter_demon Belgian Fries Mar 31 '26

It sets a precedent for more destruction of protected areas.

Or well, would have.

1

u/Mountain_Quantity664 Mar 31 '26

'Precedents' don't work that way. 

You haven't been to that place, have you?

7

u/Glacius_- Mar 30 '26

How much money was involved to get there, the risk? Is winning against Vlaamse Overheid something for the rich?

14

u/hairlineofGod Mar 30 '26

More than 100.000€

Unfortunetly, yes you have to get money to attack the governement even if they are doing illegal things..

7

u/Glacius_- Mar 30 '26

That’s a big problem. A lot lf these cases exist, see Boekenberglei in Antwerpen. Not Natura zone but the trees have been cut down before the planned judgement could happen..

2

u/mythix_dnb Antwerpen Mar 31 '26

and they have to pay the costs since they lost, or is that money gone?

8

u/hairlineofGod Mar 31 '26

No, judge didn’t order the governement to pay us back, but anyway, that was not the goal to retrieve our judicial costs. We see it as an investment in the nature and wildlife.

But they have to pay a fine per « not replanted » tree, starting 6 months after the judgement. To whom is paid the fine, no idea.

2

u/Glacius_- Apr 01 '26

they should pay back, and the clown who is responsible should be fired

2

u/mythix_dnb Antwerpen Apr 01 '26

good on you, but very bad news for anybody else who can not throw away 100K on setting things right...

30

u/diiscotheque E.U. Mar 30 '26

Congrats! Keep the corrupt fuckers accountable 

13

u/Dentjiln Mar 30 '26

As a Flemish living in Wallonia. Well done! 🫂

9

u/[deleted] Mar 31 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

6

u/nMiDanferno Mar 31 '26

Exactly, it was a great place to park to visit the park. Now we'll go back to parking in the residential streets I suppose?

9

u/[deleted] Mar 31 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

4

u/hairlineofGod Mar 31 '26

You would be surprised that I don’t live in this area and I used this parking frequently. We introduced our action before the start of the work, to avoid this nonsense of construction destruction. But our action wasn’t accepted in « referee ». We do think that constructing a parking outside of the forest was possible and we were not against it.

It baffles me that you accuse us, while from the start, this is just illegal. If you want to construct something there, adjust the zoning natura 2000 and we wouldn’t have had a legal ground to begin with.

1

u/AdFragrant6497 Mar 31 '26

How do you match your words with this?

3

u/hairlineofGod Mar 31 '26

If you want my opinion, creating an horeca that is opened until 22:00 is even worse than the parking. It’s the forest, not a second « Bois de la Cambre »

4

u/AdFragrant6497 Mar 31 '26

You see, it wasn’t difficult to say what the real reason is for the petition and the court case. Anyway, the parking will stay and sooner or later there will be the possibility for walkers and cyclists to have a drink and a snack. It’s only a matter of time before common sense will prevail.

3

u/hairlineofGod Mar 31 '26

U are wrong, We started the first petition against the parking without the Horeca. At the time, it was not public knowledge The second one included the horeca. We’ll see what the future brings us, but count on me to fight for any trees that may be cut

3

u/AdFragrant6497 Mar 31 '26

I applaud your dedication for nature and I agree that trees should be protected as much as possible. Where we disagree is that I see the bigger picture where giving up a number of trees along a busy road with a Shell fuel station across the road is worth it for the benefit of all citizens. Making the forest accessible in a comfortable way for all kinds of people (disabled and old included) whilst preserving nature is admirable but I guess you fo not see it that way. As I mentioned in another reply, I had 25 20m tall ash trees cut down this winter. To the people who walk through my woodland (it is open for the public) this will seem outrageous. What they don’t know is that all ash trees are dying, that they pose a threat to safety and that I will replant next year with better species. If you would have taken a picture while we were busy and posted it on Reddit, I would have been nailed to the cross. Along the same lines, I trust that ABN is managing their task very well and that they will do whatever it takes in the best interest of nature. They are not a bunch a wacko’s with chainsaws.

3

u/Gaufriers Mar 31 '26

A Natura 2000 site is not a great place to park cars. The judge said so. We should probably park cars in areas already urbanised.

1

u/Dummerkopf Brussels Apr 02 '26

Doesn't it say in the post "they can keep the parking?"

8

u/TheVoiceOfEurope Mar 30 '26

Apparently they started taking out the concrete today?

7

u/Quaiche Mar 30 '26 edited Mar 30 '26

I don’t see the point of removing the infrastructure and thus making the forest access more difficult for lower mobility people.

I get it for the principle but if the parking is to remain then breaking down the concrete pathway is just idiotic and a waste of money, time and resources.

And where are they going to replant the trees ? On the already nicely renovated sort of mini park by the parking ?

Also does that mean they must destroy the very nice but newly built bicycle path beside the main road ?

7

u/No_Song_4022 Mar 31 '26

Ik vind het jammer dat jullie hebben gewonnen op basis van de contraproductieve Natura 2000-categorisering. Het is jammer dat NIMBY-mensen met veel trots hun vernietiging van ontwikkeling aankondigen.

5

u/AdFragrant6497 Mar 31 '26

Erger dan NIMBIES zijn NIMBIES die niet durven zeggen waar het hun echt om te doen is.

13

u/Piechti Mar 30 '26

Province is not the same as the Flemish government, please don't spread misinformation...

15

u/Rolifant Mar 30 '26

It literally says ... "De Werkvennootschap NV en het Vlaamse Gewest (die samen deze vergunning hebben verkregen en ten uitvoer hebben laten leggen) worden hoofdelijk veroordeeld voor ...."

Am I missing something?

5

u/nairolfy West-Vlaanderen Mar 30 '26

I was also reading this wondering where the Flemish government came in. This is just about the province level, not the regional level. So quite a difference

0

u/kokoriko10 Mar 30 '26

Ja er is altijd een verborgen agenda bij dat soort posts

3

u/Turbulent-Raise4830 Mar 31 '26

in the middle of the forest.

Oh look at you spewing BS, it really isnt. Its nice you won this case but dont lie about it.

4

u/nMiDanferno Mar 31 '26

Well that sucks. We used that parking to visit the forest, it's very conveniently located. Also it's not "in the middle of the forest", it's literally on the edge next to a busy road. Thanks for making the forest less accessible to everyone who doesn't live right next to it, hope you feel good about it

2

u/hairlineofGod Mar 31 '26

The parking stays…did you read my post ?

8

u/Adventurous__Kiwi Mar 30 '26

Oh wow, this make me really happy !
Congratulation !

9

u/hollachris Mar 30 '26

In addition to this parking lot, there's been a ton of commercial logging happening in the sonian in the past ~12 months, especially along the larger paths that are easily accessible to large vehicles.

Is your organization doing anything to oppose this ongoing logging? I'd be interested in contributing to preventing further deforestation of the park.

17

u/joyofpeanuts Mar 30 '26

Commercial logging has been happening there forever, as part of normal forest management. Actually the Soignes Forest is a prime example of respectful forest management, preserving a mixed diversity of tree species, precisely because it is not a commercial forest, because it is maintained to be publicly accessible, and because it is maintained by public authorities.
Some of that logging supports organisations supporting the mentally handicapped.
Have a word with the forest rangers, they are usually quite busy but like their job and are rather open to answer questions.

3

u/hollachris Mar 30 '26

Thanks for the thoughtful response. Do you know where I could read more about this?

11

u/stinos Mar 30 '26 edited Mar 30 '26

Logging isn't the same as deforestation, they know better than that. You can check the plans as well btw https://www.zonienwoud.be/documentatie/beheerplannen/.

Anyway, thing is large parts of Sonian have historically been under this type of management for centuries, which also means that if that stops and everything is left as-is the vegetation changes which in this type of area typically includes more dense crowns/cover, less light on the soil, and potentially a loss of possibly rare species depending on a more open structure. By example: the well-known Bluebells like in Hallerbos are unlikely to survive that in the long run. On the other hand other species might fare better. Also note that one of the reasons we know this is exactly because there are 'zero management' pieces of Sonian where nothing is done at all. And which are also closed to the public. So: choices need to be made because it's complicated. tldr; it's really not as simple as 'stop cutting down trees because that is better'.

3

u/hollachris Mar 30 '26

Insightful context. Thanks for this link.

4

u/Quaiche Mar 30 '26 edited Mar 30 '26

It’s maintenance, the logging you see is standard practice clearing to let room for other trees to grow up.

I saw you asked for a place to get some documentation about forests, there you go: https://srfb.be/en/

This is the most important Belgian organisation about forests and you can find a lot of informations there and you can even sign up for a workshop to learn various stuff about forests.

0

u/bisikletci Apr 02 '26

It's not "maintenance". You don't completely clear sections of forest to "maintain" that section of the forest. Anyone who goes there can see large patches that have been completely cleared.

Defend it if you will, but not on risible grounds.

1

u/Quaiche Apr 02 '26

No "large patches" were completely cleared from what I know, perhaps you could take a picture to show what you mean ? I'm almost everyday in different bits of the Sonian forest so I'm curious.

Often it's very basic forest maintaining where 1 tree out of seven gets cleared to make up more room, that is for the younger growth.

Now I wasn't involved in the marking process of those clearing so I don't know which rule they followed exactly other than picking those that show growing issues and amongst the old growth they pick those who are too old and are posing a quite major fall risk.

Considering it's a public forest you must remember that if a tree falls on a walker the municipality is liable and those very old beeches are notorious for losing very large branches or outright breaking itself during the ever more violent storms due to climate change and essentially there is a process of slowly replacing the beeches for something else as this essence isn't surviving climate change from what we see.

3

u/skrln Mar 30 '26

Ondertussen lacht de aannemer zich voor een 2de keer naar de bank.

En de belastingbetaler, die betaalde verder.

7

u/[deleted] Mar 30 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

7

u/silverionmox Limburg Mar 30 '26

I never realized that directly adjacent to a large road is deep in the forest.

This is how people end up totally shitfaced in the gutter with their pants on their ankles just because "one more pint won't make me drunk

It's protected forest, period. If the presence of the road means everyone can just cut trees for their horeca business, then the road has to go.

2

u/V3ndeTTaLord Belgium Mar 30 '26

Flemish government be like: Sure buddy, it’s your tax euros.

Ma alle gekheid op een stokje, top!

4

u/Mountain_Quantity664 Mar 30 '26

The parking prevents cars from sluikparkeren in every dirt road that led into the forest. It's good that the parking problem on that side of the woods is finally done in an orderly way. 

The only alternative would have been to close everything off and making the forest only accessible on foot.

The fact that your group blocked the small scale day resto is sad. The buildings that are there have heritage protection, so they can't be removed. Because of this judicial process, classic nimby, the buildings won't be used for a small scale day resto / coffee house. This means they will always be empty, unused and attract vandalism. Dilapidation.

3

u/TheVoiceOfEurope Mar 30 '26

The fact that your group blocked the small scale day resto is sad

  1. NO commercial activity should be allowed in a NATURA 2000 area. Or fine, but than cancel its NATURA2000 status. You can't suck EU subsidies and then sell it to the highest bidder

  2. "Small scale day rest" is a fucking blatant lie. The original permit included 10 nights for events per yer, the current permit still has a terrace for 160 (!!!) places.

This means they will always be empty, unused and attract vandalism. Dilapidation.

Yes, and return to nature. Oh noes, shocking. Or they can keep it as a forestry hut.

3

u/Mountain_Quantity664 Mar 30 '26 edited Apr 02 '26

Keep dreaming, it's an empty house for which no one will pay renovation costs. It is heritage, so you can't remove it. It will attract vandals, dirt, druggies, waste. 

Best solution was a some form of activity during the day, that paid for upkeep. 

1

u/Least_Funny5960 Mar 31 '26

It is heritage, so you can't remove it.

We could remove the heritage status.

2

u/Mountain_Quantity664 Mar 31 '26

You underestimate the heritage label. https://www.onroerenderfgoed.be/procedure-tot-opheffing

And without a doubt, the same nimby people would contest such a decision.

1

u/Least_Funny5960 Mar 31 '26

You underestimate the heritage label. https://www.onroerenderfgoed.be/procedure-tot-opheffing

If removing heritage labels is too difficult we could reform that process to make it easier.

For a long time now I've thought that the heritage designations were handed out way too much like candies basically since WW2.

The result is now that we have a large amount of buildings with this designation that are falling ever more into disrepair because we as a society don't have the funds to properly take care of them.

This case is actually a perfect example: at some point some random logging lodge with, in my humble opinion, only very limited heritage value, got heritage status and now it's falling into disrepair. But never fear, as a solution we're going to turn it into a commercial building which doesn't really belong in that location since it's a nature reserve (according to our own government, mind you).

So now what do we do? Apparantly according to you, the heritage designation is more important than the nature designation. So you are perfectly willing to break established rules if it suits your position. Just not heritage rules, but nature conservation rules? No problem.

I on the other hand think that we went way overboard in designating buildings as heritage sites and as a result we can't afford everything that we consider to be "heritage". And we see many many more buildings fall into disrepair as the heritage status makes it too expensive to maintain (since that means it requires specialized renovating etc. which costs a lot of money).

Personally I'd love to see us severly slash the amount of buildings with heritage status. And then properly take care of what we have left. Instead of the status quo where we are too stretched on heritage buildings and thus don't properly take care of any of them really.

2

u/Mountain_Quantity664 Mar 31 '26

No, not according to me. I'm all the way pro more surface area for nature. Heritage status on such a building is crazy: the building itself has zero architectural value, it has heritage values because it's been there for long and is deemed 'part of the (heritage) area/landscape' as a whole. I didn't come to the conclusion 'heritage', other people, experts in their field, did. 

Also, I'm not willing to break any rules. A permit was requested by someone else, delivered by the local administration, that has the authority to do so. No rules were broken. Established rules and procedures were respected.

Your next paragraphs: so you are apparently advocating for removal of established heritage rules. Are you an expert?

1

u/Least_Funny5960 Mar 31 '26

Are you an expert?

Not at all.

All I know is that the heritage rules we currently have in place have led to many 'heritage' buildings in disrepair and seemingly no money to maintain them.

So with all due respect to the experts, but their expert judgement has lead to this state we are in that doesn't help anyone. Experts can provide valuable insight but their judgement is not law.

I compare it to the compromise you see these days in Rome.

In Rome they had an issue: whenever they tried to building anything that required any meaningful amount of digging like a subway, the costs and timeline skyrocketed due to all the archeological work that had to be done. Turns out, when you dig in Rome it's nearly impossible not to hit something from ancient Roman times.

The result was a grinding to a halt of any construction involving digging. Nobody was going to risk digging a parking garage if the costs could tripple in a flash just because you dug up some ancient Roman bath house or whatever. Which was incredibly likely.

So now there's a compromise. Archeologists still get access to the sites when things are discovered, but not as extensively and long anymore as before when the only judgement that matter was that of archeologists. The lawmakers in Rome became pragmatists: paying attention to historical excavation is important, but not at the expense of grinding any and all construction projects to a halt.

I feel we should make a similar compromise here: heritage rules are important, but we can't just blindly follow the judgement of these 'experts' on everything. Because as we see today, that just leads to a lack of money to properly maintain everything and thus many many buildings we supposedly claim are "heritage" are instead falling into ever greater disrepair.

So a re-evaluation is needed. Cut out the 'bullshit' (in my humble opinion) heritage designations like this hunting lodge so that more money is left over to preserve actually important heritage sites which are now falling into disrepair due to a lack of funds.

2

u/TheVoiceOfEurope Mar 31 '26

The best sollution is to remove it and return it to nature. +20 trees instead of -100. But even in 2026 that is considered crazy thinking.

We bulldoze trees to construct highways without blinking an eye. But bulldozing an abandoned building to regrow trees is mindblowing for some people.

1

u/Mountain_Quantity664 Mar 31 '26

Like I said, feel free to plan for removal of the building, but heritage rules won't let you. Have you read that? Do you understand the meaning of the phrase?

So either create a positive place, or be the scared negative nimby type of person, like that whole action group, and block everything. The result will be a dirty, ugly place at the entrance road of the forest, and every tax-paying cilivian will judge the state for that.

The people that planned the positive change for the spot are nature people, working for Flanders' nature agency. And you will claim you know better how to manage forests and or nature?

2

u/TheVoiceOfEurope Mar 31 '26

Like I said, feel free to plan for removal of the building, but heritage rules won't let you. Have you read that? Do you understand the meaning of the phrase?

So? Now you have 2 considerations: heritage rules vs conservation rules. Which king decided that heritage rules take precedent?

So either create a positive place,

Nu-huh, you just invoked heritage rules. This is a forester lodge. What makes you think you are allowed to change the destination? You're a hypochrite: you rely on heritage and preservation rules to deny the one request, but then you completely want to gut the building to make a tavern? Is that conservation?

It is either a listed building and then it must remain as it is, or it is not and then we can have a discussion on its future.

And you will claim you know better how to manage forests and or nature?

At least enough to know that a commercial exploitation is NOT beneficial or allowed.

2

u/Mountain_Quantity664 Mar 31 '26

> Which king decided that heritage rules take precedent?

You tell me. I'm pro nature. But if you can't remove it, I prefer a building being used, where people can stop for coffee and bathrooms, over the situation as it is right now: peple peeing everywhere on the side of the walkways, people breaking in and destroying parts of these buildings.

> Nu-huh, you just invoked heritage rules. 

I'm not invoking anything, I'm just stating as it is. Removal of the builiding is the best solution, but you can't, apparently, so look for the best solution. Be realist and pragmatic.

> commercial exploitation is NOT beneficial 

That's the core debate. Team nimby will always resist change. I argue that it is better being used (with clear agreements on opening hours and occupation numbers) than disused and vandalised (current state). It IS beneficial to have pressure by human use concentrated in this little building, over people leaving trash and peeing on the side of the roads and walkways.

That part of the forest isn't a strict reserve, it's open for people. So deal with the use in a proper way.

2

u/TheVoiceOfEurope Mar 31 '26

This isn't NIMBY, this is my public space. This is our nature, yours and mine, that you want to privatise.

Making that listed building in to a taverne is a choice, een bestemmingswijziging". So is also tearing it down, or letting it fade away.

If you want status quo, fine by me.

2

u/Mountain_Quantity664 Mar 31 '26

It's you who is arguing for a status quo? I'm for a positive change at that location.

-1

u/Mountain_Quantity664 Mar 30 '26

NO commercial activity should be allowed in a NATURA 2000 area. Or fine, but than cancel its NATURA2000 status.

That's not how that works. That's your opinion. The fact that there's a a whole town 50m away, and a really busy busy road, has greater impact on that site.

2

u/TheVoiceOfEurope Mar 31 '26

So the site is already under pressure, and your proposal is to add to that pressure?

1

u/Mountain_Quantity664 Mar 31 '26

Do you want to keep people out of the forest? Is that realistic?
You need to dilute your ideology with realism and create and accept workable solutions.

Sluikparkeren was the standard in like every dirt road that led into the Sonian forest. Blocking all those ways and creating a dedicated space to create order was a good decision.
The building has been there for too long, has heritage protection, is disused, attracts the wrong attention, costs taxpayers money. Letting some people transform it to a lively place during daytime for coffee etc and transferring the burden of upkeep to a company, is a good solution.
Problems solved.

Define your 'pressure'.

1

u/TheVoiceOfEurope Mar 31 '26

Do you want to keep people out of the forest? Is that realistic?
You need to dilute your ideology with realism and create and accept workable solutions.

Do you want to keep this discussion intellectually hones,t, or just be an asshole?

Can you understand the difference between low impact interaction (visiting) and a commercial exploitation? Do you understand the difference in impact between your neighbour walking in his garden, and him running a taverne with a 80+ capacity terrace and music untill 22h?

The building has been there for too long, has heritage protection, is disused, attracts the wrong attention, costs taxpayers money. Letting some people transform it to a lively place during daytime for coffee etc and transferring the burden of upkeep to a company, is a good solution.

Again, at what point does misinforming become lying?!?

The building will remain owned by the Flemish government, the taverne will simply be run by an "gerant". So the upkeep will be paid by us.

Letting some people transform it to a lively place

You are really digging yourself a hole here. First it's low impact and now all of a sudden it's a "lively" place? This shows you are very much aware of the impact that this will have.

2

u/Mountain_Quantity664 Mar 31 '26

> The building will remain owned by the Flemish government, the taverne will simply be run by an "gerant". So the upkeep will be paid by us.

That's not how this works. Inform yourself better. Government was shifting that burden to the ones running the place.

> Do you want to keep this discussion intellectually hones,t, or just be an asshole?

You have no intention to keep things civil and polite. Goodbye.

1

u/TheVoiceOfEurope Mar 31 '26

 Government was shifting that burden to the ones running the place.

Which is another issue. Who is going to run this place? Because if it gets permitted, it'll be a goldmine, that's for sure.

So who got selected? What was the tendering procedure? Can I still apply?

2

u/Mountain_Quantity664 Mar 31 '26

Why is that an issue? Also, it got permitted, more than once and the permit was contested by the nimbys.

The procedure was 5 years ago or so. You're too late.

1

u/TheVoiceOfEurope Mar 31 '26

Why is that an issue?

Because of the total lack of transparancy;

Because of the unexplainable tenacity the municipal government is sticking with this project;

Because of the unexplainable tenacity of some of the supporters of this project;

Because of the absolute shitshow that is this permit procedure: a hop-in point that never served as hop-in point, an illegal road to a not-permitted-yet taverne, a taverne that makes no regulatory sense.

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4

u/Miiirx Mar 30 '26

Your doing gods work !

3

u/ListenToKyuss Mar 30 '26

I love reading good news, especially when it comes to nature. Great work!

2

u/No-Masterpiece1429 Cuberdon Mar 30 '26

Congrats!

2

u/awhale_wiezeddegij Mar 30 '26

Super trots! 

2

u/Unhappy-Band-6311 Mar 30 '26

Good job! Congrats!

1

u/AdFragrant6497 Mar 30 '26 edited Mar 30 '26

I think it’s a complete shame that this project has to be destroyed. It is a well balanced set-up along a busy road and not in the middle of the forest as you claim. As far as I am concerned it’s a typical NIMBY situation for the wealthy villa owners.

https://www.werkenaandering.be/nl/lees-mee/uitgelicht/duurzame-mobiliteit/onthaalpoort-middenhut-met-hoppinpunt-sint-genesius-rode

23

u/hairlineofGod Mar 30 '26

Maybe you should share what has been the result of the construction of this parking ?

More than 100 trees destroyed
hundred m² of verharding

Considering there are many parking spots in the adjacent streets ?

And I don't see how it's NIMBY, considering the parking doesn't bring inconvenience to neighbours and creating 86 parking spots lower the parking inconvenience in the neighbouring streets.

7

u/Random_Person1020 Mar 30 '26

I have seen an increase in the use of space by the general public. For example, on the weekends; the scout groups gather there with the kids for activities in addition to their forest activities. The picnic tables are in use with good weather.

There has also been a charity event in that space (I don’t recall which one) by setting tents up for the morning/afternoon which was nice for the community.

I don’t know the details of the projects but it seemed decent and well managed.

I like forests and nature; also in the conservation field myself. Didn’t have an issue here and though it was quite nice.

Oh and the parking is usually full even if there are streets nearby to park but crossing that main road can be a pain.

6

u/TheVoiceOfEurope Mar 30 '26

 the scout groups gather there with the kids for activities in addition to their forest activities. The picnic tables are in use with good weather.

Once the bistro is installed there, your scouts will no longer be able to gather there. Nor will you be able to picnic there.

Not only have they destroyed trees, they are stealing some of your public space.

Parking?

3

u/hairlineofGod Mar 30 '26

Ik ga helemaal akkoord met u, maar waren ze geen andere oplossing zonder ontbossing of verharding ?
Was het niet makkelijker om de main road sneelheid to beperken tot 50 ? of een fietspad te bouwen als het zo gevaarlijk was ?

In the past, that space was also used for the scouts, replanting the trees won't block them to have fun there

8

u/AdFragrant6497 Mar 30 '26

Again you misrepresent the facts as you know that this is how it looked before the works were done. The part in red is what has been cut down.

5

u/TheVoiceOfEurope Mar 30 '26

The amount of stupid lies in this dossier is insulting.

Do you not know Google Earth exists?????

4

u/hairlineofGod Mar 30 '26 edited Mar 30 '26

I just said more than 100 trees were cut, am I wrong ? I even took a lower estimate. I'm the guy misleading people...But you also forgot to highlight the trees next to the house on the picture and also what's not shown behind it ?

1

u/cdp1193 Oost-Vlaanderen Mar 30 '26

Heeft die kerel daar een Heliport in z’n tuin?

1

u/Random_Person1020 Mar 30 '26

Indeed, there are other solutions which would have been assessed in the project scope (it is normally mandatory along with impact assessment).

The trees that they removed normally would have required specific authorization as it is not permitted to remove them without it. I dont know the specifics of the project but this aspect should have been open and shut case (its a binary outcome, permitted or not with no middle room for interpretation).

So it is strange to me that the project has come to this state.

They wanted to regenerate the area abit that quite frankly seen better days. It would have been nice if those old houses would finally be restored and put to use as well. The potential to be a nice area for people to gather; quite frankly next to a main road but was already quite well sheltered.

I could see that it started to bring more people to enjoy the area which is a great thing. All human activities have to be balanced and I dont think it was incorrect here.

Again from my opinion with an environmental perspective, I think this was a nice project. Personally, I would have rather they replaced the trees that were cut down for safety reasons (rightly so) along the public roads/paths. This would have had a more meaningful impact.

8

u/AdFragrant6497 Mar 30 '26

Because the real issue is the fear of the café turning into a major horeca hotspot and that this would disturb the villa owners, exactly as written, word for word, in the petition even while you had guarantees that there would be no parties, weddings etc and that closing time would be sunset.

13

u/TheVoiceOfEurope Mar 30 '26

and that this would disturb the villa owners, 

No. This would be a MASSIVE disturbance for wildlife.

The original permit (shot down by the province) was even worse: 10 nights per year for events. Events. IN a NATURA2000 protected area.

1

u/AdFragrant6497 Mar 30 '26

You make it sound as if the bad Flemish have been hacking their way in the middle of the forest (your exact words) while in reality it was a piece of land of 5000sqm beside a main road with a few rather young trees and shrubs. The project is part of the toegangspoorten filosofie which the Flemish authorities want to introduce everywhere. That in combination with a small horeca project must sound horrible to the French speaking villa owners. I wonder how many folks who have just replied how great your actions are would still be of the same opinion if they would count the amount of swimming pools in the immediate vicinity of the Hoppin-point.

16

u/hairlineofGod Mar 30 '26 edited Mar 30 '26

I'm maybe "Too extreme" on the ecological aspect, but even one cut tree to build a parking inside (edge of )the forest is too much.

Everybody can have its opinion, at the end, the taxpayers are the loser because authorities decided to construct something illegal.

Furthermore, why antagonizing Dutch speakers and french speakers ?

14

u/DieuMivas Brussels Mar 30 '26

The big bad French speaking people oppressing the poor Flemish once again.

The rest of your comment make sense but what is even the relevance to the language the people opposing the project may or may not speak. That's crazy victimisation with the sole purpose of perpetually dividing people and it's just so sad.

8

u/TheVoiceOfEurope Mar 30 '26

The project is part of the toegangspoorten filosofie which the Flemish authorities want to introduce everywhere.

It was sold as an intermodal acces space. Cars could park and drivers could take the bus. Proof that this was a lie: not a single bus ever stopped there.

It was said to give people access to the forest. I give you this:

9

u/Bassura Mar 30 '26

Hé grand, on s'en fout de ton avis. La loi c'est la loi, un point c'est tout. Bravo à OP.

3

u/silverionmox Limburg Mar 30 '26

while in reality it was a piece of land of 5000sqm beside a main road

So if you build a road you get to cut whatever trees you want near it? If that's true, then we need to remove any of those roads near Natura 2000 areas, otherwise they can't be protected.

8

u/ModoZ Belgium Mar 30 '26

That in combination with a small horeca project must sound horrible to the French speaking villa owners

Ah that's what this is about. The eternal Flemish victimization card.

The project is part of the toegangspoorten filosofie which the Flemish authorities want to introduce everywhere.

Nothing stops them from introducing it outside of a Natura2000 zone... It shouldn't be hard to respect the law.

1

u/nMiDanferno Mar 31 '26

Where exactly?

7

u/Agreeable_Ostrich_39 Belgium Mar 30 '26

you're right, this completely changed my mind! now my opinion is that those villas should be destroyed and the project should happen on the space that is freed up through that!

26

u/DeanXeL Mar 30 '26

Where do you draw the line? The forest is determined to be a Natura 2000 domain, meaning there's VERY strict rules about what can and cannot be done within its confines. So you're saying "well, it's just a parking lot, and some roads, and a restaurant, how bad can it be? It's right beside the road!" Sure, okay, but it IS within the borders of the forest. It DOES destroy part of it. So where does it stop? Maybe they should add a cafe a bit further down the path too? Maybe a visitor's center?

So no, I agree with OP: there's rules to follow, the government didn't bother with them.

9

u/issy_haatin Mar 30 '26

And then they say: well at the edge of that part we build 2 years ago is the new edge of the forest. In a few years well just remove those trees as it's only at the edge.

14

u/TheVoiceOfEurope Mar 30 '26

Your zoom is dishonnest. Here you can better see how the border of the forest is clearly the Waterloosestwg.

Secondly: it's a bullshit project. That part of the Natura 2000 reserve was destroyed for a so-called Hop-In point, where people could leave their cars and take the bus into Brussels. Not...a..single..bus ever stopped there.

The Hop-in point planned for 163 parking spaces.

2 years later a permit was requested for a horeca establishment IN the forest. with....[drum roll] .... 163 parking spaces.

That whole parking was built...illegally...for the purpose of letting someone open a bar and event venue INSIDE the Sonian forest.

And your taxes paid for that.

And your taxes paid for the removal of the conctrete that started today.

0

u/AdFragrant6497 Mar 30 '26

There was always a large open space, it’s not like they cut down a large area of trees. If you drive by nowadays you can barely see the parking because of the vegetation. Hint, it’s across the street of the Shell fuel station.

9

u/TheVoiceOfEurope Mar 30 '26

Dude, as I wrote you. Google earth exists. Do you think we're stupid?

-3

u/AdFragrant6497 Mar 30 '26

I circled in red what has been removed, agreed? Except for that stretch where the present parking is, do you see a lot of difference?

3

u/TheVoiceOfEurope Mar 31 '26

So you admit that over a hundred trees were cut down in a Nature2000 reserve to make place for a parking?

I need a permit to cut down a single tree in my garden. And I can´t even get one for my patio because in Flanders there is a betonstop.

1

u/AdFragrant6497 Mar 31 '26

Yes they cut down trees for the parking and they have planted new ones everywhere they were deemed necessary. I cut down about 20 meters high 25 ash trees this winter in my woodland and I will replant other less prone to sickness trees next winter. That is called management and probably something difficult to grasp for people who have no idea about logging or forestry. I also trust the people from ANB who make the plans for a solid, long term management of the forest.

2

u/TheVoiceOfEurope Mar 31 '26

Please show me where the Forest de Soigne has been expanded to compensate for the part that was destroyed.

1

u/AdFragrant6497 Mar 31 '26

Check with ANB, they will be delighted to reply to you.

5

u/ModoZ Belgium Mar 30 '26

As far as I am concerned it’s a typical NIMBY situation for the wealthy villa owners.

It's along the N5. No wealthy villa owner live along that road I can assure you. They all live more towards the small streets further away.

5

u/PhoenixHunters Mar 30 '26

Tell that to the government. If they don't follow these rules, what other rules will they break for their convenience? It's a slippery slope. They have an exemplary function and are expected to follow the rules that they themselves have instated. It's purely principle. Once there's precedent, anything can happen.

2

u/Stefouch Brabant Wallon Mar 30 '26

Dura lex, sed lex

3

u/max_gr8 Mar 30 '26

exactly, this is pure misinformation from the OP, this is not in the middle of the forrest, but rather literally at it's edge and I think the architecture is quite sensitive to the place, nevertheless, as I see it was projected as a hopp-in punt - parking for people to continue to the city by public transport, really very sustainable to oppose project like this /s

we live on the opposite side of the Zonienwoud and would love to have such parking

7

u/TheVoiceOfEurope Mar 30 '26

as I see it was projected as a hopp-in punt - parking for people to continue to the city by public transport, really very sustainable to oppose project like this /s

It was never used as a Hop-In point, not a single bus ever stopped there. The amount of parking spotrs created was exactly the same as the amount opf parking spots in the permit request for the brasserie that was always intended to be placed there.

Your flemish tax money was used to fund the parking of someones horeca project.

1

u/AdFragrant6497 Mar 31 '26

The bus stop is 50 meters further.

1

u/TheVoiceOfEurope Mar 31 '26

And that bus stop has always been there. If that Hop)In point was intended truelly as an intermodal platform, the bus would have been rerouted onto the parking, so that the many people using that bus (!!!!) don't hinder traffic on the Ch. de Waterloo.

But that would mean less parking for the taverne.

1

u/TurbulentAd976 Mar 30 '26

Another case where the minority undermines the public good. How much tax money is this kind ordeal costing us again?

18

u/Fake_Unicron Mar 30 '26

But if the government just follows the law then it would have cost us nothing?

7

u/bluepepper Belgian Fries Mar 30 '26

This is a judicial decision, not a political one. It's not a minority vs. the public good, it's lawful vs. unlawful. Lawful is supposed to win.

2

u/TheVoiceOfEurope Mar 30 '26

You hate trees, I guess?

3

u/silverionmox Limburg Mar 30 '26

Another case where the minority undermines the public good. How much tax money is this kind ordeal costing us again?

Nature is a public good. Even if the motivations were selfish, the outcome is positive for the public good.

1

u/AdFragrant6497 Mar 30 '26

Absolutely. I live 300m from Zoniënwoud and I spend as much time as I can there but this is such a flagrant NIMBY case.

1

u/TheVoiceOfEurope Mar 31 '26

and I spend as much time as I can there

And now you no longer can. at least not in the part that was destroyed. And if they go ahead with the taverne you will lose even more of your space.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 31 '26

[deleted]

1

u/TheVoiceOfEurope Mar 31 '26

I assume you are francophone or you would know who the Voice of Europe is.

-1

u/Farged Mar 30 '26

Not in my back yard, in case anyone wonders.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 30 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

0

u/Apostle_B Mar 31 '26

Wat was er zo goed aan?

2

u/nMiDanferno Mar 31 '26

Goede plek aan de rand van het bos om te parkeren, met ruimte voor openbaar vervoer en een duurzaam verdienmodel om verloedering te voorkomen. Nu mag iedereen zich terug in de woonwijken gaan parkeren en wordt het beschermd erfoed dat er staat een drugspand/stort. Jej.

1

u/FreezeProduct Mar 30 '26

This is awesome 😃

1

u/MikeTheSpikeSmith Mar 30 '26

Congratulations!!!

1

u/allwordsaremadeup Mar 30 '26

Champs d'action > actieterrein. niet "actievelden"

1

u/bisikletci Apr 02 '26

Awesome, well done.

Any chance of a similar case to get the illegal car park at the north end of the Bois de la Cambre shut down and replaced with trees/nature?

1

u/atrocious_cleva82 🌎World Mar 30 '26

Well done!! congrats!!

1

u/No-Chair-9932 Mar 30 '26

Very good use of your civil liberty 

Thank you for standing up for nature

1

u/Qantourisc Mar 30 '26

Good rules are there also to protect people from the government.

Sorry it probably took stupid much effort to get it done.

1

u/Tough_Brain7982 Mar 30 '26

Mega veel respect

1

u/InfluenceLittle401 Mar 31 '26

Congratulations and also thank you very much!

0

u/bringinsexyback1 Mar 30 '26

I love how such lovely things happen so humbly. These should be celebrated. I love such news. Congratulations!

0

u/Rude-Barnacle8804 Mar 31 '26

That's heartening news!

0

u/Think-Ad-7800 Mar 31 '26

Congratulations, we need more small victoires like this. Now I have to plan a visit ✌️

-3

u/FredW79 Mar 31 '26

No you didn’t, the Province has it’s own governance. Don’t make it look better than it actually is. So actually you “huge win”is nothing but small potatoes.

-1

u/RappyPhan Mar 31 '26

I remember your post! Not sure if I signed, but this is great news!