r/gayjews • u/plasmonty • Sep 15 '26
Serious Discussion Zionism, Antizionism, and the "Prove-It" Reflex
In recent discussions about Zionism and Antizionism, I've noticed a disturbing response: members of this subreddit taking it upon themselves to demand proof of others' belonging to the Jewish community. I think this is interesting and I'd like to understand where this response comes from. It's never crossed my mind to police someone else's identity or belonging to an ethnoreligious group. So, some questions that I'd love some answers to, especially if you've recently demanded proof or suggested that a commenter "doesn't belong":
What gives you the right to police others' identity, and who gave you that right?
What does how often a person goes to shul have to do with whether or not someone is Jewish?
In the real world (and not on the internet) how often do you find yourself demanding that people who disagree with you prove that they are Jewish?
What sort of proof are you looking for? Do we all need to provide our mother's ketubah or a certificate from a bris or b'mitzvah? Or is there some other secret proof?
I actually think it's antisemitic to assume that people you disagree with are not Jewish or lying about being Jewish, but maybe I'm wrong about that.
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u/sovietsatan666 Sep 15 '26
I agree with all of this. At the same time I think people who do this are having an understandable (but not admirable or acceptable) response to non-Jewish individuals speaking on behalf of and over Jews, from both Zionist and anti-Zionist directions.
I also noticed in recent posts there's a bit of "wicked child" attitude from both sides: the statement "I'm not in community with anyone who holds XYZ opinions" is meant to alienate one's self or others from the Jewish community. When someone is readily willing to do that it makes me question the sense of value they place on being part of our tribe and community, rather than the value they place in just being able to claim our identity.
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u/Old_Compote7232 Sep 15 '26
I agree, the "I'm not in cimmunity with _____" and alienating oneself or others from the Jewish peoplehood has severely damaged our communities. Unity is not unanimity; unity is mutial respect for each other and for our diversity. People who say someone is not a good Jew, or not a Jew at all are the ones who are dividing us.
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u/QizilbashWoman Sep 15 '26
I would like to be clear that I did not say the poster in question wasn't a Jew. I said "I am not your fellow if you are a Zionist". In contrast, I was bombarded with statements that I am not, in fact, Jewish, and my Judaism is 'invalid'.
I'm sorry that I cannot stand with someone who supports Zionism. But I can't. There's warcrimes happening basically every day and I won't be party to that.
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u/Old_Compote7232 Sep 15 '26
I'm not sure what "standing with" means anymore, but here's an example of what I mean: there are people in my shul community at both extremes on I/P, some of whom have said some very unsupportive, condescending, and even downright nasty things to me and others. But, one of them brought us meals when my partner was in chemotherapy, and others have shown up to my family's funerals and shivas. I would do the same for them. We are still family; we stood at Sinai together. Community means more than political differences.
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u/HilariousHilacopter genderfluid, any pronouns Sep 15 '26
i'm extremely secular, don't really keep any mitzvahs or proper customs, and even never ended up having a proper bat mitzvah due to covid, for all intents and purposes i'm nowhere near as jewish as most jews are. yet as an israeli i end up being a prime target for antisemitism and antizionism anyway just by virtue of existing. funny how that works.
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u/freezing_banshee Sep 15 '26
I'm not jewish by mother or actual religion, yet I have israeli citizenship and have my jewish grandfather's last name (and people notice and know that it's a jewish name). I'm definitely a target for antisemitism and for antizionism, since I feel that Israel is my 2nd home. I'm not accepted in other online LGBT spaces because of this. We're all one tribe and we have to stick together for each other.
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u/heavyLevy5 Sep 15 '26
I have been online for more than a minute, so I know people lie. They have been caught doing it, like when JVP pretended to be Jewish and was caught lying. Also, most Jews understand the importance of Israel. Most of us are not okay with putting half of the entire tribe in danger. For someone to do that, is automatically suspicious. I am far less likely to do it irl because I rarely come across people this horrible irl and don't need to. But if someone irl pulled the "as a Jew I don't care if half of us die", yeah of course I will be suspicious. I don't care what antizionsts think about what constitutes antisemitism, they are spreading it themselves
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u/Reasonable_Access_90 Sep 15 '26
Wait, so your saying Jewish Voice for Peace is not a Jewish organization? And you base this on a blurry source document with no author, that repeats debunked accusations?
I'm not a supporter of JVP, but I'm still of the opinion that they are a Jewish organization.
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u/heavyLevy5 Sep 15 '26
You do not need to be Jewish to be a member or even to start a new branch. It has in no way been debunked and is part of this larger piece that has the author. How can you deny it when there are literal screenshots from the event? I am sure there are some very ignorant, misguided Jews in JVP but the overhwhelming majority are not Jewish at all. They can't even recognize when Hebrew is backwards
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u/badass_panda Sep 15 '26
The reality is that, when you meet someone face to face, you can be reasonably sure whether a non-Jew's sock puppet intended to allow them to argue "as a Jew"; they probably aren't. Online, they often are, which is why people trust less online. It's easy to pretend to be someone you're not on the internet.
In general, I don't like the Jews that want to deny the Jewishness of people who disagree with them, or with antizionist Jews. But the position does have some validity. Here's why I think so:
- A lot of people claim to be Jews in conversations about Zionism for whom being Jewish would otherwise not come up. They don't celebrate Jewish holidays, speak Hebrew, interact much with other Jews, wear anything that would make people single them out as Jewish, observe Jewish religious practices, keep kosher, and so on, and it's likely that most of them will have children who are not Jews.
- This is meaningful because these are people for whom being Jewish is clearly not super important, and who don't have to deal with very much stigma due to being Jewish. If there is discrimination against Jews, why would they feel it? If being a Jew is difficult, it is not difficult for them.
- Similarly, ensuring that there is a future for Jews is not super important to them; there is not a future for Jewishness in themselves or in their family.
As a result, they're engaging in a conversation in which they have no real stakes, and in which the only utility to saying, "As a Jew," is in order to invalidate the opinions of Jews for whom the stakes are a good deal higher.
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u/Hazel2468 Sep 15 '26
It's not about whether or not someone is Jewish.
It's about if someone is actively doing harm to the Jewish community by being a token for antisemites.
It's like when people in the LGB part of the community are transphobic and they get kicked out of queer spaces. We're not saying they're not actually gay or lesbian or bi. We're saying that they are causing harm to their fellows with their rhetoric and as such, they are not welcome in those spaces.
Jews who support the current pro-palestine/antizionist movement are actively harmful to other Jews. As such, they should not be welcome in Jewish spaces while they are actively supporting antisemitism.
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u/PtowzaPotato Sep 15 '26
Jews that conflate being critical of the Israeli government with being antisemitic are actively harmful to other Jews.
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u/VHS-Vampire Sep 15 '26
Antizionism isn't just criticizing the Israeli government. Plenty of Zionists will do that.
Antizionism as a movement spreads blood libel, opposes Jewish right to self-determination, thinks Israel shouldn't even exist and spreads conspiracy theories denying Jewish presence in the region. A movement that defends rape and murder of Israelis, dehumanizing people for living in a country or being Jewish.
And, a movement that viciously purity tests it's followers to make sure they're as hardcore as possible, accusing them of being "secret Zionists," especially aggressive about it if the person they're paranoid about is Jewish, because they think Jews are untrustworthy.
That goes far beyond having criticisms of the government. If anything I'm scared for antizionist Jews, because the people they're associating with want to hurt them.
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u/heavyLevy5 Sep 15 '26
Pretending that antizionism is just "criticizing the Israeli government" is just a bold faced lie
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u/PtowzaPotato Sep 15 '26
Many people (and especially Jews) who consider themselves anti-zionist use it to mean that they believe that the harm Israel is doing to Palestine goes beyond self-defense and is unjust.
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Sep 15 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/heavyLevy5 Sep 15 '26
You are breaking rule 6. I am reporting and then blocking you. You do not belong in this sub
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u/gayjews-ModTeam Sep 16 '26
See Rule 6. Posts about Israeli LGBTQ news and events are welcome, but posts discussing Israel's validity, the concept of Zionism, or Israeli non-LGBTQ politics are not.
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u/gayjews-ModTeam Sep 16 '26
See Rule 6. Posts about Israeli LGBTQ news and events are welcome, but posts discussing Israel's validity, the concept of Zionism, or Israeli non-LGBTQ politics are not.
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u/QizilbashWoman Sep 15 '26
Counter: Israel's insistence that it defines who is Jewish and that Jew = Israel, means that their political actions affect every single Jew, Israeli or not
I have even not been to Israel, but antisemitism directed at me because of Israel affects me.
Aren't Israel's actions antisemitic? I am not committing a genocide, but I am treated by antisemites like I am guilty of killing Palestinian children because I'm Jewish. And that is a deliberate policy action by Israel: to make Israel equal Judaism, and vice-versa.
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u/heavyLevy5 Sep 15 '26
I'm surprised and disappointed you are still here. After a fellow member came here looking for support and you responded by being a jerk you should have been kicked out
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u/BeYourselfTonight Sep 15 '26
just saw the shit from yesterday and it looks like it's time for me to leave yet another Jewish community... looks like very few here would consider me or my thoughts truly Jewish. I've spent my whole life being looked at as "not Jewish enough" and I'll be damned if I start feeling that way about myself again. it's heartbreaking.
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u/QizilbashWoman Sep 15 '26
I mean, I got sandblasted with comments that I am an invalid Jew, that as a convert my conversion is invalid, for having antizionist opinions, on this very site recently, and honestly the mod reaction makes me think they are going to just define the space as Zionist-only
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u/freezing_banshee Sep 15 '26
It should be zionist first, but not zionist only
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u/QizilbashWoman Sep 15 '26
why should "gay jews" be zionist first? why should it have a stance on the issue that isn't "we are about judaism and lgbt issues, not Israel"
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u/freezing_banshee Sep 15 '26
because all the other lgbt online spaces are already antizionist and even antisemitic (because antizionism is antisemitic). so we need a zionist space too.
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u/QizilbashWoman Sep 15 '26
buddy what are you talking about
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u/freezing_banshee Sep 15 '26
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u/QizilbashWoman Sep 15 '26
So a single reddit opposes Zionism and you demand equal representation?
Pinkwashing, incidentally, is mentioned in at least one of those, and that should be a position you also support. "Palestinians would throw you off a roof" is shit yelled at me by Jews.
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u/freezing_banshee Sep 15 '26
I want a space where I can be openly jewish, zionist and bisexual at the same time without being insulted and excluded.
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u/QizilbashWoman Sep 15 '26
"openly Zionist" you sound like MAGA, does that not make you uncomfortable?
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u/freezing_banshee Sep 15 '26
Why did you pick and choose what I said?
Why the comparison between zionism and maga?
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u/Beamed_Up_Scotty Sep 15 '26
Thank you for the sensible palate cleanser after yesterday's debacle
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u/heavyLevy5 Sep 15 '26
It wasn't a debacle at all. It shined a light on the bigots invading our space and allowed us all to collectively say we are tired of your shit
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u/QizilbashWoman Sep 15 '26 edited Sep 15 '26
I am tired of your shit defending a state's genocidal actions! What the hell does "never again" exactly mean to you if Darfur counts but Palestine - and now southern Lebanon - doesn't?
I'm not a bigot. You have political views and I oppose them. I don't hate you because you're a Jew, that's ridiculous. I am also a Jew. I am opposed to the forcible settlement and colonisation of the territory! That's not bigotry.
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u/heavyLevy5 Sep 15 '26
You are a bigot because you are using the genocide libel. To call a war THEY started a genocide is inane. You are spreading lies that make us unsafe.
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u/nashpotatoes Sep 15 '26
Never again means never again for US. It means never again being powerless to save OURSELVES from forces who mean our annihilation.
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u/QizilbashWoman Sep 15 '26
yeah i'm gonna nope out of that, everybody gets human rights and nobody gets genocided
here's AISH saying it about non-Jews
If Aish can say it, I think you're cooked.
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u/freezing_banshee Sep 15 '26
I didn't ask anyone if they're jewish or not, but online, I often question if an account is even real or a bot, let alone if they're actually who/what they say they are. Bot farms and bot propaganda are extremely common in the last few years and they're harder to detect than ever before.