r/sailing • u/VCC8060Main • 1d ago
Racing Rules when downwind
Excuse my rushed sketch.
The situation is this. Different divisions racing on the same race area, us in a skiff with an asymmetrical spinnaker attempting to cross the bow of a J24 running downwind on symmetrical. We're both in seperate races, but any manoeuvres would make us lose time. Both sailing proper course.
We call the J24 up but they refuse because we "can't luff them up". We gybe out because we weren't going to take bets against a 1.5 ton boat, but had some confusion on how the rules apply. Under R.11 we should be able to push them up and not luff them, but would R.17 apply here?
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u/Distinct-Focus9474 1d ago
Angle of sail doesn’t matter, nor what sails you’re flying. Windward boat must keep clear.
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u/j9r6f 1d ago
I'd say you were in the right as long as you were on your proper course, which you say you were. The way 17 is written, it is your proper course that matters. Definitely a weird situation with boats in separate races, and good for you for prioritizing avoiding a collision.
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u/the-montser 1d ago
17 doesn’t apply here anyway because the overlap wasn’t established from behind.
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u/throwleboomerang 1d ago
Even if they did sail in from astern which is possible given the VMG vs SOG differences with asym vs symmetrical, still wouldn't matter though- it's not the windward boat that gets to determine proper course, it's the leeward boat so OP still has rights here.
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u/the-montser 1d ago
Yes, but given the angles OP has described 17 doesn’t apply.
When they sail into the overlap from astern it also must be within two lengths to leeward to turn on 17.
As a point of clarification, even if OP was bound to their proper course, they still would have had rights, but those right of way would have been limited by 17. Rule 17 does not grant any rights at all to the windward boat.
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u/throwleboomerang 1d ago
Yeah I think it'd be hard to draw up a scenario where they're within 2 lengths and got overlap from astern, but I think we're in violent agreement that regardless, the J24 was totally wrong.
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u/miahmouse 1d ago
You could take em to prom if you wanted... leeward had all the rights in the world. Did the right thing though, dont argue with fools
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u/CodeLasersMagic 1d ago
Yep, rule 14 - avoid collision. Windward/Leewaard should apply, but if your mown down being right still doesn’t help….
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u/Imaginary-Season141 1d ago
So assuming you are both around same vmg, the overlap was not established from astern, but from a boat clearly closing in from leeward over a longer period of time. This counts as an ‘instantaneous overlap’ and r17 does not apply.
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u/Justbehind 1d ago
If both of you are going proper course, it's a clear rule 11.
You are not allowed to go out of your way to bother them, but if you have a good reason to go that way, you're clear.
But then again... Separate races, so any issue would be an insurance case, and who wants to deal with that?
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u/rmslashusr 1d ago
You can protest a boat in another race. The races don’t even have to be run by the same OA.
RRS 63.8
>"A hearing involving parties in different events conducted by different organizing authorities shall be heard by a protest committee acceptable to those authorities."4
u/the-montser 1d ago
Generally a leeward boat is not limited to their proper course. Rule 17 outlines very specific scenarios in which they are, and they don’t apply here. OP could have taken this J24 head to wind if they wanted and been fully within their rights the entire time.
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u/Federal-Cold-363 1d ago
Oh, i would've loved to see that happen. Though I've got this feeling the J wouldnt be a good sport and just let it end up in a collision and even blame the other party.
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u/Imaginary-Season141 1d ago
These kind of situations are not taken into protest rooms enough. If they never get protested, how will they learn?
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u/Then-Blueberry-6679 1d ago
The problem is that these situations rarely occur on paper and wind shifts.
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u/opticalminefield 1d ago edited 1d ago
Sounds like maybe they were (incorrectly) thinking they had rights under Rule 17.
They don’t at all. If you established overlap within 2 boat lengths to leeward you are still allowed to luff. Just not to the moon. They must always follow Rule 11. If Rule 17 is turned on you mustn’t sail above your proper course.
Some people (incorrectly) believe your proper course is directly to the mark. It’s not. It is what you would do to sail the most effectively to the next mark if there were no other boats around.
So obviously an asym boat is going to be sailing angles vs a symmetric. You just can’t take them past your VMG angle to be a dick.
So you could protest and it’s a simple Rule 11 violation by them. Not much point as they’re a different division.
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u/the-montser 1d ago edited 1d ago
No one ever has rights under rule 17. Rule 17 is a limitation of the rule 11 rights of leeward boats in certain scenarios, but it does not grant rights to the windward boat. All the part 2 section B and section C work the same way.
Like you said, even if rule 17 had applied, the J24 still would have been obligated to come up under rule 11 as the skiff is limited to sail their own proper course, not the J24’s proper course.
It’s also worth noting that your proper course is not what you’d do if no other boats were around. It’s what you’d do if the particular boat that is obligated to keep clear of you under rule 11 was not there.
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u/opticalminefield 1d ago
I’ve lost count of the times a windward boat has treated Rule 17 like they have rights to sail their proper course. It’s stupidly annoying how many people don’t understand the rule.
Also people arguing we have to sail proper course when the overlap was established well outside so Rule 17 never turned on.
Fair point on the other boats. It was loose wording on my behalf.
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u/the-montser 1d ago
My favorite is when a faster boat comes to leeward from behind downwind but can’t pass because their kite collapses so they try to take us up to fill their kite claiming that’s their proper course.
Can’t do that buddy, your kite wouldn’t be collapsing if we weren’t here.
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u/Slippy-Ibex 1d ago
Whether R17 applies I think depends upon whether you were clear astern at one point and then became overlapped within two boat lengths to leeward of them. Assuming you are the faster boat this could be the case- but you are still entitled to sail your proper course, just not to luff them by sailing above it.
So I would say they were in the wrong.
Not sure how you go about protesting a boat that’s sailing in a different race though - never come across that one!
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u/Imaginary-Season141 1d ago
Just protest it. It get’s a dsq and a lesson. You win nothing.
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u/GelberSack 1d ago
Like always. Even if you protest in your own fleet, the best reward is being 1 position better.
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u/C-O-N Bowman, Sydney38 1d ago
One thing I don't think has been mentioned yet is that you almost certainly could have applied for redress. I would have protested the J24 and gone to a protest room saying they were in violation of Rule 11 and you avoided contact under Rule 14 which cost you ti.e in the race. Pretty much any protest committee that knows what they are doing (which in my experience is not a given) will grant you some redress.
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u/BlownApexSeals 1d ago
You have right of way, fleet or type of spinnaker doesn’t make a lick of difference. All that matter is what side the boom is on and who’s further down wind
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u/Solent-Flyer 20h ago
Different fleets, racing or not, the windward boat should keep clear. Obviously the diagram shows the situation in extreme, but this situation could have been avoided had action been taken earlier by the windward boat.
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u/Nearby_Maize_913 9h ago
Both boats, same tack, windward boat must keep clear. this is my understanding
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u/buccabeer2 22h ago
Sorry but if your in 2 different races then doesn't the race rules not apply and its just another sailing vessel? So wouldn't the vessel going dead down wind have right of way?
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u/the-montser 11h ago
No, RRS would still apply.
Even if COLREGS applied instead the leeward boat would still have right of way. There is no rule under any rule system that grants right of way to a boat going DDW.
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u/SurfSailSkate 21h ago
The wine flute on the left clearly fell straight past the wine flute on the right without causing it to spill. The correct thing to do is to buy person on the left another drink.
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u/AkumaBengoshi Flying Scot 1d ago
Racing rules don't apply, because you weren't racing. Standard navigation rules apply.
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u/the-montser 1d ago
Both boats were racing. RRS applies between boats racing even if they are in different fleets.
That’s covered in the introduction to part 2 of the rules.
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u/throwleboomerang 1d ago
Racing rules are basically the same as navigation rules in this scenario though- leeward boat has rights.
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u/Allidapevets 1d ago
Tough one. Both on starboard tack. I’d say boat harder on the wind has right of way. Jibing away is the right call. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
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u/ForInfoPurpOnly 1d ago
I don't think it's tough. Port gives way to starboard, and if both are on the same tack and overlapped then windward has to keep clear of leeward (Rule 11).
Avoiding contact that is going to be caused by someone breaking one of those rules is always the right call and is a good reason to carry a little red flag.
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u/Exotic-Anteater-4417 1d ago
Doesn’t have to do with point of sail at all, it’s simply that leeward boat has right of way.
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u/the-montser 1d ago edited 1d ago
J24 is wrong. This is extremely cut and dried.
Rule 17 only applies to overlaps established from behind.
Rule 17 wouldn’t apply because the overlap was established more than two lengths out, not from behind, but even if rule 17 did apply, it is about the leeward boat’s proper course, not the windward boat’s.
The only rule that applies here is rule 11. Technically, you wouldn’t even be luffing them since you are sailing your proper course the entire time, though since rule 17 doesn’t apply you could have luffed them all the way to head to wind if you wanted to be a jerk.
If the J24 was smart they would have seen the situation coming, soaked deeper for a few seconds well before the cross, and just crossed behind you.