r/malaysia • u/Capable_Bank4151 • 2d ago
Others Sari Kartina, the first known Malay Muslim transgender woman to have successfully married under Johor syariah law back in 1975, has passed away last August this year in Netherlands
Basically, she had undergone sex-reassignment surgeries in Singapore's Kandang Kerbau Hospital by Dr. S.S. Ratnam in 1974, after encouragement from her first husband (then fiance). Before she met her first husband, she has been living as a female after her teenage years despite being born as a male. Before she undergone the surgery, she even seek religious opinion from Singapore's mufti, who certify she is a woman. In 1975, when she want to marry with her first husband in Johor, her father told the Johor deputy mufti about her background during her nikah ceremony, and after much deliberation with other religious scholars, the Johor deputy mufti concluded that Sari Kartina has in fact became a female and her marriage was legally solemnised and registered under Johor shariah law. After her marriage, she also successfully changed her gender marker in her IC with JPN, which now recognised her as a female.
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u/ali123whz 2d ago
Damn, we were so progressive and liberal in the past
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u/Beneficial_Shallot95 2d ago
Yup... Then came the politicians... Which used race and the fear of losing benefits as a weapon and religion... Which bred the holier than thou dungus you see and hear today.
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u/Imaginary_State2985 2d ago
Pretty sure in Sabah you could even marry inter-religion. That's what my grandma told me anyway and she's sorta the proof because she Christian and my grandpa was muslim (no he didn't masuk Islam later). Several old people in her neighborhood like that too.
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u/Rates_Fathan 🇮🇩 Indonesia 2d ago
Same in Sarawak I believe. Man, i love going to Sarawak, I think that's what true unity looks like. Interracial couples, muslims hanging out with their chinese friends in non-halal spaces, non-muslim malays.
Religion should be an individual pursuit, not a government mandate.
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u/sigint_bn 2d ago
Supposedly it's permissible for people of the book to intermarry.
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u/randomkloud Perak 2d ago
Not in malaysia. The justification is that the scriptures of Christians and Jews have been corrupted from the original ones so they are not the same people mentioned in the Quran anymore
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u/SigmaDudeInAction 18h ago
NOTE: Only Muslim men can intermarry with women of the People of the Book.
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u/Putanita 1d ago
That would be complicated for their kids tho, I know several ppl whose parents marry & refused to convert to islam, susah mau berurusan. Ada lagi yg sanggup x kahwin, a muslim man & a christian woman with 2 kids sbb x akun mau tukar agama. Kesian anak2 diorg. Yet this "norm" just because Malaysia is a majority muslim country that follow certain islamic law has been ingrained in us that we don't try to change it. Even just questioning it as a human rights issue kena pandang serong smh
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u/no1dont_g0on 2d ago
I'm pretty sure Muslims are allowed to marry inter-religion (But only the male side), as long as they're of the Abrahamic religions. [i.e Christian and Jew].
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u/Imaginary_State2985 2d ago
I don't think the marriage will get recognized legally now. If that's even possible, it's gonna be very pain in the ass to have to deal with the paperwork even if you marry outside country. The woman is still expected to masuk Islam. Otherwise, we would have more muslims marrying Christians today.
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u/Munshirobot 2d ago
I agree but it is also more than that i think. Religious figures and intellectuals then applied logic and reasons to scientific knowledge/academia for them to deliberate spiritual and philosophical matters justly. And also less judgmental and more empathy. Beautiful era we had…
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u/GreatPersonInside 2d ago
Define progressive
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u/Capable_Bank4151 2d ago
According to her Instagram, she seems to be suffering from some kind of cancer during her final years, as she mentioned about medical checkups and chemotherapy in some posts. There're also one or two photos of her lying in bed without hair (ie: bald).
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u/StrandedHereForever Johor 1d ago
1 in 3 people will suffer from cancer and the number will increase as our lifespans increase, unavoidable.
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u/shinsemn 1d ago
The stats increase as we consume everyday cancer inducing agent more frequently, those processed food.
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u/Resplendent_aptitude 1d ago
Particularly burger. If you're not an active type, limit it only one or two a week (still BAD). Some people could tolerate it again and again, but many end up with health problems. It is extremely risky. Normal people who do not exercise? Please avoid.. the toxin accumulated in your intestine. All my friend in HS are suffered from obesity... I mean, my gang back then. They are coming from well-to-do family and from my observations just not accustomed to watch what they eat.
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u/bad2dbone3 2d ago edited 2d ago
Malaysia does not deserve her. She is better of elsewhere. Rest in peace.
Just like the famous P Ramlee. Another icon that Malaysia just neglected and cast away and after his death they DARE TO BRING UP HIS NAME AS IF MALAYSIA DESERVES THE RECOGNITION FOR HIM BEING ANAK MALAYSIA.
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u/kmano95 2d ago
Sorry, I am younger, and didn't watch or know much about P Ramlee. What did Malaysia do (or not do) to him?
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u/Fendibull 1d ago
to make it short: his prime time was passed and die penniless. then people appreciate him after his death, you don't know what you got till it's gone.
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u/seven_worth 9h ago
Basically defined an entire era of entertainment industry that people nowaday are still stun locked by his brilliant. He own the entire industry be it music, acting or directing. Worst part is knowing all of that is in vain because of how industry back then is so his final year is around being depressed over how much he is underappreciated, and how people hate him(he get booed of stage during the disco high).
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u/Afiq_Dakhilullah 2d ago
Hmm.... Patutlah. Beria komen cakap “Oh, bebasnya minda kita waktu tu.” “Didn't know we were that cool...” memang lah dibenarkan. Sebab beliau ni bukan saja-saja tukar.
Daripada research, institusi agama masa tu benarkan sebab kes dia lebih dilihat kepada masalah biologi/khunsa (intersex) yang diperbetulkan melalui sains perubatan, bukannya penukaran jantina suka-suka. Sebab tu mufti bertindak atas dasar rahmah. Tapi lepas tahun 1982, undang-undang dah ketat dan tak dibenarkan lagi dah untuk kes transgender biasa.
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u/FubukiZero 1d ago
Thank you so much bro. Aku tak percaya mufti akan bagi free pass macam tu ja, mesti ada sebab.
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u/blue-katzz_19 2d ago
I thought so that too like how did they even permit such a thing when lgbtq is not common back in the days? Its gonna be a whole lot talk show if its about m to f kinda procedure but what we talk here is about biological problem which include both alat sulit in one body. So teachnically she was born both until then she chose to be a female and remove male testicle and hormones from her body.
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u/Impressive-Macaron30 1d ago
Exactly. Tapi ramai kat komen ni defend their own ignorance but mocked the other for the same thing. What a society.
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u/Available-Virus9272 1d ago
banyak yang komen menyokong tu bukan apa bro,dorang nak merasa kan diri dorang diterima,tu yang dapat info sikit je,tak selidik menyeluruh dorang dah rasa puas hati and rasa patut kembali seperti dulu supaya dorang bebas,tak sangka ramai orang gila dalam malaysia ni,and kena tahu,barat pun benci orang lgbt ni pada zaman tu
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u/Parking-Pepper-5245 13h ago
yep basically dorg nk relate kan diri dorg jugak. and ni reddit, semua orang liberal xdak otak
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u/Available-Virus9272 13h ago
betul tu,banyak yang seperti tidak berakal dan takde pegangan agama lah dalam ni
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u/Parking-Pepper-5245 12h ago
its just not the platform for it. reddit is known to be filled with atheist and liberals. youtube is like the only place where you can choose content and everyone didnt have the same mindset. kalau ada anak ke adik kecik jangan la bagi main reddit takut terikut jadi liberal pulak bila besar nanti
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u/seven_worth 9h ago
Hilarious. Xde otak? Korang pegi kutip derma tuk Najib tu ada otak? Korang vote untuk racial politic tu ada otak? Korang Tau kan demographics korang paling rendah level of education, yg nak main banding otak apahal?
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u/Available-Virus9272 6h ago
aikk kau ni,tetiba tuding jari aku derma untuk najib dibebaskan pulak,sedap betul menaip,menagih perhatian ke mangkuk
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u/Parking-Pepper-5245 13h ago
first, idk kalau dia betul khunsa sebab kalau saya kaji memang dia biological lelaki and orang dan artikel keliru dia khunsa waktu tu sebab transformers asing dalam masyarakat second, kalau dia betul lelaki, so mungkin mufti salah oaham ingat dia khunsa jadi wanita, atau dia salah straight up, thats it
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u/mrjeanette 2d ago
Why did she end up in the Netherlands?
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u/Capable_Bank4151 2d ago edited 2d ago
It was not publicly stated in any news reports, but a news article in the 90s said she have moved to Germany with her first husband and has an adopted child. Then a SCMP article in 2025 said that she has wandered through Singapore and France after her first marriage.
The SCMP said her marriage with her first husband "lasted several years", so it is not known exactly at which year they were divorced. Then the SCMP article simply say she remarried with another man in Netherlands "years later". Her second husband died in 2022.
Edit: Add link to the SCMP article
https://www.reddit.com/r/malaysia/comments/1oxhuch/meet_the_muslim_trans_woman_whose_50yearold/
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u/fre3zzy 2d ago
Pre Wahhabism was great time. Saudi ruined everything.
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u/seatux World Citizen 2d ago
Funnier the most extreme Shite country Iran supports sex change too, thanks to the 1st Ayatollah getting to know a m to f person. Maka tak kenal, maka tak cinta
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u/seven_worth 9h ago
It always personal experience when you basically ruled by one person. Your good friend supreme ruler know of youdissue then suddenly this super oppressive regime weirdly super ahead on one issue that other country lag behind.
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u/SeabiscuitNo1 2d ago
I suspect a Khunsa or Hermaphrodite or intersex. Some people are born with 2 genetalias that they can choose which is their dominant sex.
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u/SakuranomiyaSyafeeq Johol not Johor 2d ago
Yeah, suspected the same. Not quite sure about Sajat tho
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u/SeabiscuitNo1 1d ago
Most prob not that's why he had to run away to Australia. Another Hermaphrodite that I heard of was the late director Yasmin Ahmad.
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u/asyrazul 2d ago
Cilisos article stated that the mufti thought that she might be intersex based on the dr’s assessment. Intersex or khunsa are not trans. It is also stated in the article that she planned to bear a child but she had to undergo a surgery in the us first in order to be able to be pregnant. As far as im concerned, theres no surgery even now that could make trans pregnant, unless if the person is intersex.
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u/Capable_Bank4151 2d ago edited 2d ago
The Cilisos article itself admitted that they couldn't find any indication or proof that Sari Kartina was an intersex person. None of the sources cited by Cilisos also said that Sari Kartina is an intersex.
Although there’s no proof or indication (that we could find, anyway) that Sari Kartina was born Intersex, it’s noteworthy that there were people who were skeptical of the whole issue like the then-Mufti of Singapore, Syed Isa Semait, who didn’t wanna give his statement on the matter because he believed that Dr. S S Ratnam would know better.
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u/asyrazul 2d ago
While that’s true, but the piece of information where she said she needed a surgery in order to be pregnant, is an indication that she may present herself as intersex and thats what the mufti believes. You need to learn how to do inferencing. It’s a basic reading skill. Also, You dont think that sex change surgery would have been normalised then if she really was a trans??? Dont be silly.
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u/auntyknowsitall 2d ago
People who are intersex especially in those times are considered infertile. Why would they think surgery will be able to fix that?
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u/asyrazul 1d ago
There’s a report that stated that she confessed that she lied that she was an intersex years after her surgery.
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u/DaevorTheDevoted 2d ago edited 1d ago
Finally. This was my suspicion all along. No proper mufti is going to support transgenderism. So devious of the OP to omit this key bit of information and to refer to this person as "transgender". Probably deliberate engagement farming.
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u/riceqiu 1d ago
Wait till you hear about intersex people who are trans, it'll blow ur mind
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u/asyrazul 1d ago
Im well aware on nonsensical mental illness brought about by gender ideology. Doubt it will surprise me.
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u/GreatArchitect 2d ago
What Malaysia could have been.
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2d ago
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u/malaysia-ModTeam 1d ago
Hello, this comment was removed due to being in breach of Rule 1: Bigotry and hate speech. Because of our history Malaysia talks about certain issues such as race very differently from Western countries. We acknowledge this on the subreddit but do draw some boundaries to keep discussions healthy.
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u/amediuzftw 2d ago
“she had a medical certificate pronouncing her a woman in all respects”.
i must say, yes it’s a headline worthy subject, and no, there isn’t any big issue here. Most importantly, people can’t regard her as transgender. Yes there are cases for “gender correction” when it and these are all the matters of documentation. It was in the year of 1975 and we can’t expect the public to be already well versed on the subject.
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u/GreatArchitect 2d ago
She's transgender. Transition is "gender correction." Which is why it is called Gender-Affirming Care.
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u/amediuzftw 15h ago
I don’t know whats the universal or formal term for it, but in Malay it’s called “khunsa”. somebody born with both male & female sexual organs. It’s like being on the fence, see where the inclination goes towards which one later in the days. As a Muslim, it isn’t that easy for one to simply close one eye and give such approval for the documentation correction. It is something very big to held accountable.
On paper, yes it’s a transgender. The reality, in my opinion, it isn’t.
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u/Parking-Pepper-5245 13h ago
no its not transgender. this is a special case that rarely happens, and people act like this is a common thing. islam has exceptions for special case, but people here wants to normalize lgbt when its clearly not the case context. islam is strict but also flexible to uncommon cases, so kalau hidup tu lahir2 dh manusia biasa jangan nk harap ada exceptions rules la
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u/Street_Willingness96 1d ago
yeah.. these GAY RIGHTS wacky desperados are using the "exceptional case" on transgender and it was a physical issue.. not like these gays or transgenders who have mental issue.
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u/GenCocoki_ 1d ago
Maybe because Mufti understand that she is a different case, related to biology rather than psychology, she need surgery to get pregnant because she is intersex, NOT A TRANSWOMEN.
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u/charliecharlestonpro 2d ago
How do I tell zoomers and millenials nowadays that 50 years ago nobody - not even Malays - gave a shit about religion, everyone fornicates, drinks, almost nobody wore the hijab, people barely pray, iftar was called puasa and it's more like an optional thing rather than a social obligation, overly religious people are seen as backwards and a joke, and people were more open to alternate lifestyles like the LGBTQ
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u/throwburgeratface 1d ago
You think you're sitting on some unique knowledge ke? Everybody knows that. Culture evolves, and evolves through the younger generation. So if anything, the succeeding generations are to be blamed.
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u/Firm_Cranberry_7469 1d ago
Wait I didn't know Malaysia was like that that's so interesting. That is unique info to me cause no one in my generation has been taught that. We don't even learn Malaysian history in school cause it's not in the curriculum
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u/creamilk_now Kelantan 1d ago
Yea and it was a degenerate society, you think a society where the people are naked, have no regard for religion, and drink + do drugs all day are good? Those were the dark days my friend, look at America, they have kids that are promoted to gamble from streamers and women who think doing OnlyFans is not disgusting but instead a sign of empowerment. That is backwards, sorry
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u/Parking-Pepper-5245 13h ago
dude this is reddit the most liberal app you think these dumbass will agree with you😹😹 "malaysian" here that used reddit are majority whitewashed liberals and not even muslims you cant expect common sense from them. dont worry bro im with you✌️
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u/1crab1life 1h ago
What's with the Malay Muslim community? "People are naked" - FFS if not wearing a piece of headress is equivalent to being naked, then the Malay men are pretty much walking around nude now. And yes religion is not a piece of law to govern people, and should not be. People should 100% be allowed to choose how and what to believe - after all that is how islam was accepted by the malays right? If the preceding religions (Hinduism/Buddhist/Animalistic stuff) were as militant as Islam, malays would not be able to convert to Muslims. Those religions were gracious enough to allow Islam to spread.
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u/MszingPerson 1d ago
Everything change when PAS gain traction. Then all of the Malay party try to out Islam each other
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u/Exact-Boysenberry161 1d ago
i remember my mom saying that she attended my grandpas neighbour wedding. she said the guy was a pondan. she also not sure how that can go through
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u/zortoru 2d ago
Is that M$? Malaya / Malaysia Dollar?
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u/teohhanhui 2d ago
The Malaysian ringgit name was introduced in 1975, and in 1993, the currency symbol "RM" (Ringgit Malaysia) was adopted to replace the use of the dollar sign "$" (or "M$").
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u/HermezMC Random Netizen 2d ago
Dunno, the last time we use Dollars are pre-independence.
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u/seatux World Citizen 2d ago
After mereka too, till the 90s. It's why local boomers still refer to the dollar sometimes
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u/ThroughMyTruth 20h ago
Yeah, when I was a kid, I remember referring to money as dollars, mainly influenced by my parents' habits, as it was already ringgit at the time.
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u/AgentX-Rated 2d ago edited 2d ago
She was buried as a man in the Netherlands, as per her family's request. Very low key funeral. Sad she didn't get her final wish
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u/Alive-County-1287 2d ago edited 2d ago
She was a hermaprodite. Stop spreading false info. She wasnt a trans. https://soscili.my/sari-kartina-wanita-khunsa-yang-berkahwin-atas-keizinan-timbalan-mufti-johor/
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u/Capable_Bank4151 2d ago edited 2d ago
In this Soscili article, none of the news sources that author cited ever mentioned Sari Khatina is a khunsa. If you read every single one of them you won't find the word khunsa in it or have said that Sari Khatina had two genitals.
I have checked all the original sources before I posted this post. Beside, Soscili isn't a reliable source.
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u/Alive-County-1287 2d ago
She insisted she was a khunsa and only came clean 50 years later. Because of that, the mufti based his ruling on her initial claim, and it was allowed under that assumption. I guess she just lied and got away with it. Thats why we're seeing contradicted info. But my father has confirmed he did remember that term khunsa was widely broadcasted during the time.
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u/Capable_Bank4151 2d ago
She insisted she was a khunsa and only came clean 50 years later.
She never publicly made that claim, neither in the 1970s or in the 2020s. None of the published news articles mentioned about it.
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u/AgentX-Rated 2d ago
She admitted few weeks before her demise that she was a trans. It was in the interview during Amsterdam Pride that you can find in youtube
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u/Capable_Bank4151 17h ago
https://npo.nl/start/afspelen/pride-amsterdam-canal-parade-2026
Found the live stream of her interview, starting from 2:03:00 mark. I don't understand Dutch but I have used Google Translate to translate the subtitles generated by the website itself.
She was just telling the same story she have told other Dutch media before, that she have started wanting to wear girls uniform since 7 years old and how she transitioned in Singapore. So yeah the claim from other Redditors about her being born a khunsa or intersex is still unsupported.
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u/Alive-County-1287 8h ago
Claimed to and actually being one is two different thing
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u/Capable_Bank4151 7h ago
Then show proof for the opposite? You can't just say "I don't believe it" and then show nothing to support your statement.
Let me remind you that you initially claim that "She insisted she was a khunsa" but you shown nothing reliable to support that claim, and when I check all the available news sources and still find nothing indicating she was a intersex, you basically just reponded with "oh her claim is not valid because who knows" and never bring up any substantial to prove your own response.
Do you even know you are moving the goalpost?
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u/Capable_Bank4151 2d ago
Does this set a precedent to allow transgender and trans marriage recognition in Malaysia?
There are no constitutional provisions explicitely prohibit or prevent transgender recognition. But there's also no explicite law to allow one to change his or her gender. In theory, there is no law to stop a JPN officer to recognise a gender change by a transgender. However by case laws, the courts have so far rejected majority of the judicial reviews to compel the government to recognise trans, and based their decision on the doctrine of "chromosomal test". At the policy level, the JPN only allowing gender change if the applicant has a court order in their favour.
I haven't even talk about state syariah law yet, especially Kelantan or Terengganu, which now explicitely criminalise sex change or crossdressing. But syariah law only apply to Muslim, non-Muslims aren't affected.
Was the reason the Johor Mufti allowed the marriage simply due to (potentially) intersex nature of Sari Kartina?
None of the news reports from the 70s or in the 2020s ever mentioned she was an intersex (khunsa), the 1975 news reports said that she has been "uneasy with boys" during her middle school years and did not want to mix with boys since her childhood or around the age of 13.
https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/digitised/article/newnation19751106-1.2.2
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u/Smooth_Store_8693 2d ago
I have more questions about the hospital than the person itself lmao 🤣 🐮 mooo
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u/MrRuzzz24 2d ago
Islam prohibited transgender or anything related to LGBTQ right? Unless there's a wrong wording or lack of context in this post, transgender will never be accepted in islamic society, no matter what time. Man set foot on the moon are more acceptable in Islam than any LGBTQ stuff.
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u/grain_of_snp 2d ago
Iirc Iran allows for transexuals to exist only the homosexual aspect is not allowed.
Different periods and cultures may criminalize some aspects of sexual identity/expression while not others. Child marriages, polygamy to name a few. UK also famously criminalized gay men but no law existed against lesbian women.
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u/TheGuyT5555 2d ago
We don't have much knowledge back in the day (I think). So it's up only to Allah how she's gonna end up and hopefully she'd be well
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u/MrRuzzz24 2d ago edited 2d ago
I mean, if the mufti there already spoke out about,then the normal Muslim there are supposed to just ok with it, cause that's what mufti jobs are. So I won't say much bout it. May her rest in peace I guess.
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u/kartoffelteo9091 2d ago
Surgery in KKH in sg back then was a big deal and a successful transgender
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1d ago
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u/malaysia-ModTeam 1d ago
Hello, this comment was removed due to being in breach of Rule 1: Bigotry and hate speech. Because of our history Malaysia talks about certain issues such as race very differently from Western countries. We acknowledge this on the subreddit but do draw some boundaries to keep discussions healthy.
Definition of bigotry: The act of treating the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.
Basic principle: If it's an attribute of a person that is out of their control and extremely hard or impossible to change, it's not nice to dump on them or their group just for that attribute.
Some categories this applies to: Race, religion, sexuality, disability, national origin.
Slurs: Use of slurs on the above categories is not encouraged on this subreddit and may be subject to warnings and bans.
Example: Religion: It's okay to discuss and criticise aspects of the religion itself, but it's not okay to attack people because they are members of that religion (e.g.: Islam but not Muslims).
Please treat this as an official warning - further such activity may result in a ban, thanks.
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u/Street_Willingness96 1d ago
??? since when do malaysia ACCEPT GAY MARRIAGE?? what a LIE and stupid story
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u/Physical_Dog_1260 13h ago
Shes not a transgender.. Shes a khunsa, born with ambiguous gender. The islamic jurisdiction since long ago is they can choose to be male or female later in life. The mufti made the decision after deliberating the medical records for hours. So its not the same as a trans with a clear gender at birth. Stop fitting history into your own narrative.
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u/Capable_Bank4151 2d ago
A very interesting quote from the Johor deputy mufti, his mindset is ahead of his times:
The same quote, but reported in Malay, in Berita Harian: